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Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015 When was the first Hagstrom subway map in the yellow-red-blue style like so? The earliest one posted on nycsubway.org that looks similar to that is 1939. Were there earlier maps like that? For some reason, I recall the first was in 1937.For that matter, when was the last map in that style? Apparently, Hagstrom had a 1997 subway map but it looked more like the official MTA map than those earlier ones. Also, were there maps in that style from 1941 (showing half the Second Avenue El) or 1954 (showing the Third Avenue el cut back to Chatham Square)? From what I've seen, the maps tended to be riddled with errors— either misprints or anticipations of future changes. I have found a map showing half the Second Avenue El, but it was released by a bank to show their locations in the city (even though the transit map seems to be in the standard Hagstrom style). Alas, I could only find a low-resolution image of it. Apparently, while the map shows the Second Avenue El below 60th Street, it seems to have preemptively cut back the Myrtle and Lexington els even though they ran to Park Row for nearly two years after Second Avenue closed. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 29 10:10:40 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. I can't give you the first and last dates, but I can say that the change in style coincided with the switch from traditional production methods to digital.Hagstrom maps (like other copyrighted maps) introduced non-critical errors to detect infringement. Andrew Hagstrom was big on showing mapped but unbuilt lines and highways in a style that indicated they were "future." |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 29 12:01:36 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. There WERE Hagstrom maps for virtually every permutation as the maps were updated often. They also did special versions for banks, hotels, even for each subway division.And, of course, a Hagstrom subway map was in each edition of the Yellow Pages. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 29 12:01:43 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. There WERE Hagstrom maps for virtually every permutation as the maps were updated often. They also did special versions for banks, hotels, even for each subway division.And, of course, a Hagstrom subway map was in each edition of the Yellow Pages. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 16:17:22 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. According to the collector who compiled two collections of historic transit maps for NYC the first Hagstrom subway map in the format that we are familiar with, was either 1936 or 1937 (I don't have the book in front of me - it was one of those two years). It was in volume 1.A competitor, Geographia maps, issued maps in a similar style. There were at least two banks that issued subway maps - one in a similar style to the Hagstrom editions. Hagstrom's borough maps, also included transit (and trolley) lines that were superimposed over streets. Post 1950 maps show the 3rd ave. el cut back to Chatham Square. I have not seen post June 1940 maps with only the southern portion of the second ave. el, but I'm sure hagstrom must have issued them. I have two early Hagstron maps - one from Jan. 1940 which shows the worlds fair branch, and the IND as a dotted line beyond Euclid, station at 75th St. and further stations out to Aquaduct (I haven't listed them, since writing from memory I might leave one or more of them out.) The second is from 1943/mid 1944 (don't remember - I have the letter code system to date them*, but it is filed away with the map) according to the date, the BMT el lines over the Brooklyn Bridge should still be shown, but it is not, with the Myrtle. and Lex. being cut back at Jay St., as you've seen with the map that you have. One other interesting item is the way the City Hall loop is drawn - on the earlier maps - the '36 or '37 map, and mine from Jan. 1940, the loop is a large circular design off the Lex. trunk. In the later '43/'33 map, the loop is drawn as being much smaller and more compact. There was a thread, years back, I think maybe even on the old Subtalk, entitled "Tracks beyond Euclid Ave." One of the posters, if I understood him right, stated he had Hagstrom maps showing extensions of the IND Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. line, further out into Queens. He did not provide any further details about them. *google Hagstrom map letter code, or dating code, and you should get a hit to a page that lists a simplified code for figuring out dates. the earlier maps, also show the shuttle to Court St. - sorry for not including more specifics, but this is being written from what I remember. any comments, or those who can provide further details are welcome. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 21:38:42 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 16:17:22 2015. Thanks! |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 30 20:22:16 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 21:38:42 2015. You're welcome.I remembered later on, that on the street map for New York City - this map pocket contains two separate maps - onen for Manhattan to somewhere above midtown, and the other for northern Manhattan and the Bronx. IIRC - this street map must be post 1940 - at least something jogged the ol'brain cells anyway - since IRC it does show the 2nd ave. el only as far as 59th st. where it curves eaat onto the bridge. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 1 10:47:08 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. The earliest I know about is 1932. It's included with a collection of transit maps available in bookstores but dated 1936.Bob |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Apr 1 16:32:01 2015, in response to Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:42:51 2015. What I hated about those maps is after te Lexington Avenue El was torn down, they never bothered redoing the base map, so Lexington Avenue always appeared to be a major street having three times the width of neighboring streets greatly misleading drivers. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 1 16:48:19 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Apr 1 16:32:01 2015. What maps? You and he are talking about two different kinds of map. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 1 19:09:34 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 1 10:47:08 2015. Did you survive the security scare? |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 1 19:13:23 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 1 16:48:19 2015. LOL!! |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 1 21:59:09 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 1 10:47:08 2015. This is the collection I was referring to. Thanks for confirming 1936 as the date given in the collection.This map couldn't be from 1932, since almost all of the then built IND is shown as solid red, in-service routes. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 1 22:00:04 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 1 21:59:09 2015. re: since almost all of the then built INDI meant as of 1936. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 1 22:03:05 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 1 16:48:19 2015. It sounds like Brooklyn Bus is talking about Hagstrom's Brooklyn borough street map. I also noticed the same thing, Lexington Ave. on the street map is still shown as being extra wide. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 07:20:56 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 1 22:03:05 2015. Well, duh. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 08:56:06 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 07:20:56 2015. But it shouldn't be. Looking at Google Maps, Lexington Ave is no wider than adjacent avenues. But my 1989 Hagstrom street atlas still shows it as wider. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 08:58:40 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 08:56:06 2015. Yes, but that wasn't what the OP was talking about. BrooklynBus inadvertently and carelessly changed the subject. Even if it's an interesting topic on its own. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 09:19:29 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 08:58:40 2015. Eh, if I objected to changing of the subject I'd stick to railroad.net. :) |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Apr 2 09:23:17 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 1 16:48:19 2015. What maps? You and he are talking about two different kinds of map.There are maps for people who don't drive cars? |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 11:56:20 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 09:19:29 2015. There's nothing wrong with changing the subject, except that BrooklynBus didn't mean to do it - he incorrectly thought/assumed/understood that a different map was being discussed. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 12:27:52 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 11:56:20 2015. Thanks for helping to clarify. I was going to do it, thought I'd be writing a longer post and figured if I got back to it, it would be later on.I was the one, actually, in responding to Nilet's original post about the subway maps, who brought up the other kinds of maps; the Hagstrom street maps (and how they depicted transit routes, in comparison to the subway maps). As I best understand it, posts, on whatever kind of board, especially in the format like here; where it's easy to directly respond to someone else - resemble conversations. Conversations go back and forth, and more than one topic can be discussed at one time. I entered the second topic, the street maps, and that was the one Brooklyn Bob was responding to - I might have responded in the same way - assumed that another subject was brought up and that I would respond to it. That's the way I see it anyway. Conversations ebb and flow, "go with the flow" and more than one kind of topic may be discussed at once. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 12:30:03 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 07:20:56 2015. I don't know why you responded this way. Please see my post, in response to Terrapin Station's, below. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 12:31:52 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 12:30:03 2015. I just thought it was obvious what BrooklynBus meant. I didn't mean to offend you. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 12:49:52 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 12:27:52 2015. I was the one, actually, in responding to Nilet's original post about the subway maps, who brought up the other kinds of maps; the Hagstrom street maps (and how they depicted transit routes, in comparison to the subway maps).What you posted before BrooklynBus is irrelevant, because he replied directly to the original post in the thread. The original post was not about the map he started discussing as if it was. It was purely his mistake. I entered the second topic, the street maps, and that was the one Brooklyn Bob was responding to - I might have responded in the same way - assumed that another subject was brought up and that I would respond to it.And there's nothing wrong with that. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 13:03:37 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Apr 2 09:23:17 2015. The subway map, for one. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 13:09:12 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 08:56:06 2015. Until digitization, where changing vector layers is relatively easy, Hagstrom maps used traditional transparent comp layers to put together their maps. And lots of cut and paste.It is one thing to neatly remove an elevated line from its corresponding layer and quite another to redraw the base map as well. But then, consider streets that actually DID widen to accommodate a rail line, but the rail line was removed and its ROW paved over. Look at what happens to Ocean Avenue at Glenwood Road. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 13:16:30 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 12:49:52 2015. Thinking back to the list on this thread - I see what you're saying about BrooklynBus's post.With posts following each other, indent after indent, it is sometimes not clear to me which post, the answering one is responding to. I usually scan the responding post list quickly, and choose one at random to read first - I also scan it quickly instead of examining each post's position carefully, since I can be just plain lazy :) Sometimes way down the list, it does to me, look like one post is responding to the original one, from it's position. Sometimes, I can't even figure if that is correct if the responder is going off in a different direction from the first post. Anyhoo, that's how I see it.... |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 13:18:34 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 2 12:31:52 2015. Thanks for explaining. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 13:45:11 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 13:16:30 2015. With posts following each other, indent after indent, it is sometimes not clear to me which post, the answering one is responding to.All you gotta do is click on a post and then there is a link up top to the post that it was in response to. There should be no ambiguity at all. Such ambiguity would undermine the entire purpose of this web forum. I usually scan the responding post list quickly, and choose one at random to read first - I also scan it quickly instead of examining each post's position carefully, since I can be just plain lazy :)Not sure why you do that. I start with the first post in the thread and then read all replies before making any reply of my own. That way you won't repeat something that has already been said, and/or won't repeat a mistake that has already been corrected. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Apr 2 14:03:34 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 2 08:56:06 2015. That's because until very recently, they'd kept the same base map for so many years. Just about all of the streets formerly occupied by els were shown extra wide. So was Lorillard Pl. in the Bronx which, although it didn't carry an el, was a direct straight extension of 3rd Av. from about 183rd St. to Fordham Rd.Bob |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 14:27:43 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 13:45:11 2015. MS in SubChat Posting. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 14:29:08 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 13:45:11 2015. All you gotta do is click on a post and then there is a link up top to the post that it was in response tothe posted by... in response to.... line - yep I've seen it and clicked on it. bottom line, that's the best way to get the posts' sequence. Sometimes I just look at the whole list instead - that's the way I used to do it back when I first began responding to message board posts - habits are either hard to break, or just hang on...'caused you're used to doing it one way... Not sure why you do that. - because I'm me, and I'm not perfect.... by a long shot :) - also because when I see a long thread, i just get impatient with going through all of them. And yes, doing that could cause me to make a post with duplicate info. or that has already corrected. I've done that, and yeah, I feel a bit embarrassed. Sometimes I read more posts that I want to, to avoid doing that. Other times, I just decide not to respond. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 14:46:38 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 14:27:43 2015. With honors. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 15:04:05 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 14:46:38 2015. You mean cum laude.See how long it takes Cortelyounext to watch this. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 15:07:10 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 14:29:08 2015. You're a good man. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 15:07:46 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 15:04:05 2015. I'm not picky. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 2 15:28:30 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 14:29:08 2015. Do you read in Compressed mode? That way, you click on the original post and all the replies are displayed. The tradeoff is sometimes the server seems to have difficulty and gives an error (this seems to happen more often on OTChat than the other boards), but I just keep banging away at it until it gives it up. :) |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 2 16:26:03 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 2 15:28:30 2015. I used to live compressed mode, but switched back to chronological as compressed usually doesn't load properly |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 2 16:26:13 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 2 15:28:30 2015. I used to love compressed mode, but switched back to chronological as compressed usually doesn't load properly |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 2 19:26:01 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 13:45:11 2015. Everyone doesn't have to do it the way you do. If I see a thread with a hundred posts, and I have something related to say, I will just go to the bottom and post which is what I did this time. I saw the subject Hagstrom subway maps and made a comment about the Hagstrom street map as it related to Els. I didn't even read the posts about the street map.I didn't make any mistake and you seem to be the only one bothered about it and had to make a comment about it being a mistake. Unlike you, I have better things to do with my time by reading 350 comments before I can make one. So what if I repeat something? Big deal. You don't set the rules around here anyway. In fact most people don't even want you on this board because of all the nonsense you pull and have left the board because of you. I am not aware of anyone who left because of me. You can continue to read every post if you want to before entering a comment, but your rules apply only to you and no one else. I know you have to have the last word and would want to continue this back and forth forever, but you can find someone else for that not me. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 2 19:27:34 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 2 16:26:13 2015. Just don't ask for as many days and it should work better. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 2 19:29:19 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by GIS Man on Thu Apr 2 14:03:34 2015. Have they fixed it yet? Sixty years is a long time not to fix something. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 2 19:32:14 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 1 16:48:19 2015. I realize that now. I wasn't reading all the posts when I responded. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Thu Apr 2 22:04:51 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Apr 2 19:32:14 2015. I realize that now. I wasn't reading all the posts when I responded.Huh? You don't need to read all the posts to know that you were wrong. You only need to read the original post. You read the original post before replying, didn't you? |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 23:20:58 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 2 15:07:10 2015. I just hang in there, like everyone else....Thanks. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 23:25:43 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 2 15:28:30 2015. Do you read in Compressed mode?No. I don't know how to do that.... |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by nostalgia on Fri Apr 3 00:07:04 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Thu Apr 2 22:04:51 2015. Just get off his back. Nobody else is upset, only you. You obviously haven't taken your meds to fight your disassociative personality disorder. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Apr 3 03:14:51 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 2 12:27:52 2015. That's the way I see it anyway. Conversations ebb and flow, "go with the flow" and more than one kind of topic may be discussed at once.Alas, Terrapin has trouble understanding that very concept. It may be why he's unable to participate in adult conversations. |
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Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 3 07:32:31 2015, in response to Re: Hagstrom Subway Maps, posted by nostalgia on Fri Apr 3 00:07:04 2015. Haha you responded to me again. I win! You're giving me the attention I so greatly crave! Keep it coming hypocrite!! |
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