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| Re: Myrtle Avenue El (1343500) | |
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| (1345488) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 23:50:43 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 20:20:45 2015. What I meant was, preserving some, or all of the structure, by moving it to another location, and then using what was saved for something else, maybe part of a partial bridge structure in a park for example. |
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| (1345530) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Mar 27 10:26:19 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 23:50:43 2015. Isn't there a slice of an EL structure in the Hunts Point (Bx) NYCTA facility at the former Grand Iron location with a pair of R-33 redbirds on it?? |
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| (1345544) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 12:24:32 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Mar 27 10:26:19 2015. Yes, it's from the Jamaica Av el. It's used to train MTA structural track workers. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1345553) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 27 12:53:48 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 20:20:45 2015. No reason why it couldn’t. Ab elevator could have been added to either one of the former Fulton St platforms. |
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| (1345558) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:30:21 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Mar 26 14:01:26 2015. of the 3000 or so people arrested in the riots,over 300 were city,state & federal employee`s.I,d like somebody,ANYBODY try to rationalize this. |
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| (1345559) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:32:51 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by VictorM on Fri Mar 27 12:24:32 2015. SOME OF THE OVERPASS WAS STORED IN A LOT NOT TO FAR FROM THE STRUCTURE.UNKNOWN IF IT IS STILL THERE OR IF IT STILL EXSISTS. |
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| (1345562) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:42:11 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Thu Mar 26 23:46:56 2015. not to replace the shuttle but to extend it via Bedford ave.it would have been built as a subway/el mostly along the route of the present G line.a small section of subway tunnel was built down Bedford ave dissecting the G line at Bedford/nostrand below it.no provision for a station is in the tunnel. |
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| (1345563) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 13:53:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:42:11 2015. It sounds like this dissecting tunnel under Bedford would have continued farther north, past Lafayette, to (I'm guessing) South 4th Street? |
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| (1345564) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 14:06:33 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:30:21 2015. Pure greed! I remember seeing the signs, "Soul Brother" and "Soul Sister" on the storefronts to identify the owners/employees as being black. It didn't make any difference, did it? Their property was looted and their buildings were burned. People that were trying to make a go of it in their own communities and their dreams literally went up in smoke! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 27 14:21:21 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:32:51 2015. You're referring to the Fulton St. el bent?Thanks. |
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| (1345574) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:27:48 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 14:06:33 2015. AMEN BROTHER,AMEN. |
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| (1345575) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 27 14:27:58 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 13:42:11 2015. Have you ever come across any kind of documentation at all for this route - I've heard about this route before, but no one every seemed to have seen or found backup - plans etc. - for it.Thanks. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:28:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 27 14:21:21 2015. YUP. |
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| (1345573) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:28:37 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 13:53:00 2015. no.afaik this was a brt/bmt project,not ind.there was talk of connecting the G to the franklin shuttle using basically the same beford ave route. |
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| (1345578) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:30:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 27 14:27:58 2015. old ERA articles.its lightly touched on in "the routes not taken" |
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| (1345579) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 27 14:31:50 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:30:00 2015. I'll check routes not taken again. My ERA stuff (bulletins etc.) is in storage right now. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 16:18:35 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Mar 27 14:28:37 2015. Would have been easier using Franklin Ave to connect the IND "GG" to the Frankie! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 16:25:50 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 14:06:33 2015. But, if you point out the actual ugly past, you get labeled an "Archie Bunker", or worse! Right, Mr Edwards? |
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| (1345607) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 27 16:56:52 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 16:25:50 2015. Those who refuse to learn from history force the rest of us to go "through it all twice". When I was a book salesman (Vintage, Modern Library) we had no accounts that were not transit accessible. Most within a couple blocks of the subway, or in a few cases a bus ride away. I had no accounts along the Myrtle. The few times Irode the lower half, other than the final trip, I remember 'Pay Fare on Train' in mid afternoon. From my Chicago days, ridership mimiced owl ridership[ on the Evanston branch.All that said, ifthe TA had been able to find the $$ to strengthen the structure and buy the R39s the line would be used today. This is a recurring problem in transt because the fixed plant costs are so high. |
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| (1345640) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 21:23:11 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 27 16:56:52 2015. It would have taken a lot more than the R-39's to increase ridership, back then. I remember the, "Pay Fare on Train". Older structure, old cars, low ridership, and no direct access to Manhattan were the factors back then. But, you say we should have had patience- for 45 years? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 00:19:00 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 21:23:11 2015. Always a hard call. If the better functioning Myrtle had stuck around, would the 'hood have done better, revived faster? Did you ride the 14th St line in the 60s? pretty low ridership in my experience. (I used it mostly the 6+ months I lived on 11th betwn B&C fall 66 into late spring 67)The 50s and 60s were a low point for rail transit. As I grew up, streetcar lines, elevated branches, heck entire elevated routes, were abandoned in NYC and Chicago. By 62 when I graduated HS, I had been on the last streetcars in DC; less than a year later the end of the CNS&M, and read about various other electric transit dying. Diesel commutes were not immune; I rode the final C&WI train from Dearborn Street Station to Dolton. Meanwhile, white flight/massive government investment in suburban sprawl combined w/ degraded urban services/education accelerated. If either CTA or MTA had ever built all the stuff they promised...we would have a very different world. |
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| (1345663) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Mar 28 01:08:14 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Mar 27 21:23:11 2015. That is true about that:The line likely would have had to have been rebuilt in the '70s or '80s to most likely the way I would do a rebuild in 2015: Stations with 600' platforms, done for the wider and heavier BMT/IND cars that were in use by then, including spots if necessary where the line ran with two levels of single tracks and some two-platform stations as a result (To Downtown Brooklyn on the upper level, from Downtown Brooklyn on the lower level). As also previously noted, there likely would have been a considerable consolidation of stations past Myrtle Avenue as part of this rebuild, with in a rebuilt line about half as many stations as there were before the line either went to what would now be Jay Street-Metrotech (and today directly connected to the (A/C/F/R station) OR go into a new tunnel that would likely connect to the Montauge Street Line, either at the current Jay Street-Metrotech Station OR at Court Street before likely continuing via the Broadway line to Astoria as what would likely have been a (W) train. This possibly would also also included a rush-hour loop line ("Brown W?") that would have run in both directions from Metropolitan via the Myrtle Line to Montague and then via the Nassau Line before going over the Willy B and Broadway-Brooklyn line back to Metropolitan. |
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| (1345666) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 28 02:10:09 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 00:19:00 2015. Regardless of what was...what could have been... this is what's happening now.The corridor has seen increased traffic for years, pointing out the need for renewed transit facilities. The MTA itself has pointed this out in it SBS study,and has earmarked the B54 route for Select Bus service. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 02:41:39 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 28 02:10:09 2015. right. b(ogus) rapid transit, the austerity versioon of what is needed. |
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| (1345683) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 28 07:52:37 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 00:19:00 2015. I rode on the Larry regularly from 1967 to 1970, during the final days of the BMT standards. It was fairly well used, but then I rode on Saturdays. One thing I remember was how an 8th Ave.-bound train would EMPTY at Union Square. I mean, people would pour off the train. Often times we'd get off, too, for a nice, brisk express sprint up Broadway on a Norton. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 12:40:14 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 28 02:10:09 2015. I agree with you 100%. If neighborhoods are changing, transit plans should reflect that. But remember, it's a two edged sword! |
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| (1345712) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 13:50:41 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 28 07:52:37 2015. My memories include being the sole rider at First Ave in both directions at various times. |
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| (1345716) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 14:05:34 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 00:19:00 2015. Sorta makes you wonder what NYC would have been like had they built the SAS in the 1970's! |
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| (1345726) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 14:30:35 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 14:05:34 2015. not to mention from the 1948 bond money. I remember coming back to the EV/LES in 73 seeing 2nd Ave all torn up w/giant wooden beams in lieu of pavement. Very sad especially since back then they were smart enough to do cut and cover. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Mar 28 15:57:17 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 28 07:52:37 2015. I railfanned it in '67, '68 - Coming to serious railfanism only during the mid 60s, I found out about the Standards kind of late, so I thanked the railfan God that they were in regular daily service somewhere. Enjoyed riding Myrtle-Chambers with AB's during the spring of '68 as well - took some b & w photos.I loved those cars - 2390-91-92 were a delight to ride back then. |
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| (1345738) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 28 16:17:29 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Sat Mar 28 15:57:17 2015. I didn't care for them back then. I'd gotten used to seeing route and destination signs up front and when I saw the standards for the first time, I was taken aback. They looked as though there were from another century. No front signs, only three sets of doors per side for such a large car - the list when on and on. Riding on them was cruel and unusual punishment. No wonder I always welcomed the opportunity to bail at Union Square and change to a Broadway express "with a letter up front".Little did I know back then that they were damn near indestructible. If they ever get the museum set running again, I'd ride on them. I vividly remember how their brakes would go, "tchhhhhh" as they came to full stop. It was the same sound as the magnet valve sound on the R-1/9s without the "ssssss". |
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| (1345739) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 16:24:49 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 14:30:35 2015. And noe we have this huge oversized and overpriced tunnel being bored under 2nd Ave. I often wonder if they had planned to cut-and-cover all the way up in the 1970's. |
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| (1345740) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 16:25:08 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 14:30:35 2015. And noe we have this huge oversized and overpriced tunnel being bored under 2nd Ave. I often wonder if they had planned to cut-and-cover all the way up in the 1970's. |
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| (1345742) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 16:49:45 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 16:24:49 2015. I believe they did. Back when the NYT ran a subway column, RaFrom both his description and MTA diagrams showing how they propose to link the new junk to the existing it seems much shallower. ndy Kennedy toured one of the 2 segments circa 100th st. I thought I had seen a profile map showing the depth of the various segments, but, can't find it. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 28 17:19:54 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Sat Mar 28 15:57:17 2015. I too started mini railfanning in 67-68. Id get on a GG at 65th st. & take it to Metropolitan/Lorimer change for an 8th Ave bound Canarsie line train, wait for a set of Standards, hop on to Union Sq, change for an Uptown Lex. Ave express train to Grand Central then to a 7 express back to Woodside. Four sets of equiptment, R-1/9..Standards..R-22 then R-36.What impressed me was the speed of the standards under the river to first ave. My train flew. Motors whining with a high C note so loud that conversation was next to impossible. For a supposedly "underpowered "car, my set had plenty of giddyup that day. East side IRT express uptown run wasn't too shabby either. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Mar 28 20:05:44 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 16:49:45 2015. Page 2 of this MTA PDF file from about 2003 shows the profile, but it shows the deep tunnels as constructed. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 20:21:36 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 28 16:49:45 2015. Well, were the original sections under 2nd Ave done by cut-and-cover or by deep tunneling? |
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| (1345784) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 28 22:08:02 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 20:21:36 2015. IIRC in the early-mid 70s, there was cut & cover done on 2nd ave in East Harlem in the 110s-120s. which made for wooden planking replacing asphalt. I remember riding downtown on 2nd ave on timber roadway, as the Hgy dept called it back then.They posted signs, "Caution, timber roadway ahead, slippery conditions" and it was indeed. Wet wood made for lousy traction. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Mar 29 01:45:47 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by VictorM on Sat Mar 28 20:05:44 2015. thanks, didn't remember where to find it, now stored. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 02:12:15 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 28 17:19:54 2015. I remember the same thing. Hopefully if they can ever get them running again, they will "fly" up CPW on a fantrip someday.... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 02:17:18 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 28 16:17:29 2015. I was facinated by them and liked the window and door design (exteior and interior) from the first time I saw them, which was in the old Rocky Graziano bio-pic, Somebody Up There Likes Me. (can be viewed on YouTube)Paul Newman (?) who played Graziano the teenaged delinquent, is with a friend, while robbing those candy machines on the platform at Chambers St. Platform conductor sees and chases them, they run onto a train of AB's that has pulled in, the doors close, and they make their escape. Nice exterior shot of the Standards. I thought they looked just plain cool.... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun Mar 29 04:20:59 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 16:24:49 2015. They could still do cut and cover today. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Mar 29 06:11:46 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 02:17:18 2015. there would be an excellent "extra-credit" question: how many movies, tv shows and cartoons have used the "ran into the subway just as the doors were closing and thus got away!" scenario. with a bonus for listing those movies which have the guy run into the car, the guy chasing him runs into the car also, and then the hero jumps back out of the car while the chaser is carried away, raging through the door window. |
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| (1345875) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Mar 29 15:46:44 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by ntrainride on Sun Mar 29 06:11:46 2015. yep, great idea! and that would also have to include any foreign movie made on the Underground, Paris Metro, U-Bahn, etc. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Mar 31 14:08:12 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 28 22:08:02 2015. I've also heard it called the "Second Ave Washboard".--Mark |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 2 15:27:20 2015, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 28 16:24:49 2015. They seemed to decide it was less headache to tunnel under the utilities than reroute them. |
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