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| Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps (1243575) | |
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| (1244730) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:02:45 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 07:32:23 2013. Excellent comprehensive description of what happened. The only question I have is whether or not at some point after ENY opened that way but prior to the opening of Euclid, the wooden platforms were removed from the S/B stations at Ralph and Rocky Aves allowing trains to proceed into ENY on the S/B lcl tk and relay S/O the station rather than stub end on the N/B platform. |
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| (1244743) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:26:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 07:32:23 2013. I agree with Randy, well written. My only question now is why they didn't immediatly switch the eastbound local track to the eastbound express track, after leaving the station? Then have the X crossover just beyond it. Then have a track from the City bound express switch to the local track. That way the platforms at Rockaway Ave subway station could have been used. why this big production with these temporary platforms? I know there is a curve, east of the station but it's not that sharp! |
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| (1244749) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:35:05 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Aug 28 15:01:42 2013. Sorta makes me wonder if Hylan was opposed to the 41st St extension. I don't think a station at 41St/9Av would have mattered to him, given that there was no free transfer between subway and el at 66St/B'way. But, thank you for finding this article! |
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| (1244757) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:47:30 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Aug 27 20:34:28 2013. Then why not have 2 lower level tracks, instead of one? |
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| (1244758) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:48:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:26:13 2013. With the exception of the diamond Xover between the exp tks N/O ENY, that station was built in typical IND fashion with diamond Xovers between the lcl and exp tks at the leaving ends of the station. The city probably figured it was just a matter of time before through service would go to Euclid so why bother with the additional expense of installing another temporary switch that would only be used for another year or so unlike the ones between the exp tks N/O Rocky Av which saw several years of service. Also the temporary wooden platforms were already in place so it was only a matter of keeping them in place a little longer rather than installing an entirely new switch. |
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| (1244759) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:49:10 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:47:30 2013. I never understood that either. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:06:52 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:49:10 2013. Which level at 50th is CPW local and which is Queens ? |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Aug 28 16:07:23 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:06:52 2013. Lower level is Queens. |
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| (1244763) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:15:03 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by AlM on Wed Aug 28 16:07:23 2013. Then my theory is they wanted local 8th Avenue traffic from 50th and south to use the less crowded CPW service, not the Queens train. So they deliberately put Queens tracks by itself on lower level. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Aug 28 16:21:19 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:35:05 2013. I think it just shows that, the more things change, the more they stay the same, at least in the politics of transit planning. The mayor, the legislature (and, presumably, the governor), the Port Authority, civic groups; competing plans, some funded, some not, motivated by a mix of altruism and self-interest; promises not to raise the fare.I would assume that the private operators had no interest in free transfers given the fare situation. Operating a 41st Street extension west to New Jersey might have helped the IRT financially if they could charge a higher fare for the trip. Today, fares are a still political football. Would free transfers from the subway and MTA-operated buses to PATH and from PATH to NJT local light rail and buses make sense? Sure, |
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| (1244770) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 16:29:53 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:15:03 2013. However, from 34/8 south both services would be at the same level so it really wouldn't make much difference. |
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| (1244771) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:33:27 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:15:03 2013. Was there ever a crossover from southbound lower 42nd to the uptown platform? You know, to bypass upper southbound platform for people from Queens wishing to go uptown on 8th Ave and CPW. That's the only other thing I can think of now. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:35:43 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 16:29:53 2013. While we are on the subject of 34St/8Av, why did they put in that middle A5 track, south of thstation? |
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| (1244774) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:35:45 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 16:29:53 2013. They had the opportunity at 50th to make it 2 levels, and took advantage of it. |
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| (1244775) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:38:05 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:33:27 2013. Other than to blockade the IRT, again, discourage AM rush boarding at 42 onto the E train. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:42:54 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Aug 28 16:21:19 2013. Today- yes. but not back then. I just find it very difficult that the IND built one lower level track and on platform to thwart a 41st St expansion anywhere! |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:49:02 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:38:05 2013. As opposed to PM rush boarding for Queens bound trains? Having been on the Queensbound "E" in PM rush hour, I would have liked another lower track and platform in that direction. So, I would have built 2 lower level tracks and platforms for each direction. |
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| (1244780) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:55:53 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:48:19 2013. Interesting that they built the vertical supports to accomodate those ramps when that section opened in 1936. No other IND stations have those columns between the express and local tracks set up like that, except Ralph and Rockaway Aves. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:57:56 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:49:02 2013. AM rush likely assumed to be a denser rush period than PM.Can't see any other reason for the asymtery. |
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| (1244785) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Aug 28 17:24:06 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:42:54 2013. I agree that it is hard to believe this was done just to thwart the extension, but it obviously was not needed for the lines to connect efficiently. They can hold E trains at 50th for a slot at either upper level track at 42nd rather than holding them downstairs at 42nd waiting for the express or local track to clear south of 42nd. In 1920, the Board of Transportation--Hylan's BoT--tells the Board of Estimate that the Queensboro Line has to shift to 41st Street to allow for a future extension westward and then they design lower 42nd to block it a few years later? That sounds like either odd engineering--they were convinced that a merge north of 42nd from lower 50th would not work--or politics--if the IRT was not the threat, perhaps an end run around the city to get Albany to authorize the PA to build it was. I would want to look at more contemporary articles before I reached a conclusion, and the Times was having "difficulties" with their website when I started the search yesterday.Still, I've seen old articles from the Times and even 19th century articles in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle that sound remarkably similar to transit controversies from the past 60 years. |
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| (1244789) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 17:39:10 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 15:02:45 2013. Excellent comprehensive description of what happenedthanx |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 17:40:16 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:26:13 2013. I agree with Randy, well written.thank you too. |
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| (1244793) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:02:33 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:23:43 2013. There is an active tower just past the head end of the Queens-bound platform of the Broadway – East New York station.There are turnouts just outside the Broadway – East New York station. those turnouts were built for a proposed line along the BMT Jamaica Line, or for proposed Jamaica Avenue Subway. Oddly, It was not a provision for the IND Second System as were similar structures on other IND lines. the turnout on the N/B side has an emergency exit, much like turnout on the N/B side of the queens Blvd subway between 63rd drive and 67th Ave for that proposed connection to the lirr rockaway line. There is nothing on the model board in the Broadway/East New York tower to show this provision. |
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| (1244794) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:17:38 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:33:27 2013. Yes there was. In fact before they reconfigured the mezzanine it was only way to get from the Port Authority bus terminal to uptown/Queens bound platform without paying an extra fare. |
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| (1244795) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:25:34 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:35:43 2013. It's a pocket track, or layup track. I remember seeing a prewar train parked there once on a Saturday morning. IIRC it was signed as a B. |
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| (1244796) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:27:07 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:17:38 2013. It was under 42nd St., where the two platforms overlap. The rest of the lower level was fenced off by a loose chainlink fence. |
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| (1244797) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:33:48 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:25:34 2013. It's also useful for relaying work trains. |
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| (1244798) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:37:54 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:25:34 2013. it's one of the many pocket tracks that exist throughout the IND:between 167th and 170th on the concourse line 2 on the fulton st subway, between lafayette & clinton-washington and another one between utica and ralph between chambers and canal (on the A&C tracks) on the crosstown G line between court square and 21st st. |
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| (1244799) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:40:16 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:37:54 2013. oh, and add the pocket track between 72nd and 81st st. on the list. |
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| (1244805) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:56:07 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 15:47:30 2013. 50 St/8 Av does have two lower level tracks for north and southbound E's. |
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| (1244807) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Aug 28 19:09:51 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:37:54 2013. Don't forget the one the 7th Ave IRT has, between Penn Station and Times Square. It used to be used to short turn some of their rush hour trains, and was the site of a major derailment. |
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| (1244831) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 22:00:54 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by 3-9 on Wed Aug 28 19:09:51 2013. IND..not IRT. |
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| (1244833) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 22:12:21 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 28 16:57:56 2013. True..since the evening rush is spread out.. |
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| (1244838) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by SubwaySurf on Wed Aug 28 22:48:41 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:27:07 2013. .....and it stunk to high heaven of piss.Peace, Andee |
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| (1244853) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 03:41:29 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 28 16:55:53 2013. That's because, the B of T really didn't know what the exact route of the Fulton St subway was to be S/O Rocky Av and set up that station to be a temporary terminal until such time as the rest of the route could be finalized. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 03:50:40 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 18:02:33 2013. That would be because by the time the ENY station was built, the route between there and points south had already been finalized. I have seen some sources that indicate that the so called bellmouths S/O ENY were not intended for any sort of connections but merely vagaries in the construction of the subway infrastructure. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 11:54:16 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 03:50:40 2013. Hold on..I have seen the plans for those bellmouths.. The Jamaica Avenue subway would have replaced the BMT line over Fulton st..as far as Cypress Hills,where it would have linked up to the Jamaica El. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 12:01:27 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 03:41:29 2013. The "Planned" routing had the IND continue under Fulton st,over to liberty ave..link to the Fulton el to Lefferts..then extension to South Jamaica. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 13:58:23 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 12:01:27 2013. That was actually one of many I have seen. However, once unification was achieved, the plans were altered to provide connections to the existing BMT lines rather than competition. |
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| (1244923) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Thu Aug 29 14:01:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 12:01:27 2013. There should definitely be extensions to SE Queens, NE Queens & SE Brooklyn. SBS is a help but not the answer. Buses still have to share the roads with cars, trucks and now bicycles. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 14:03:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 11:54:16 2013. I have some superficial plans for the iND in that area which shows the IND continuing straight out Fulton St to eastern Queens which also calls for the iND to curve south to connect to the outer portion of the Fulton St el the way it does now but from a different direction. It seems that the city really wasn't sure exactly what it wanted to do with rapid transit in that area until the final construction of the IND S/O ENY. |
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| (1244930) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 29 14:19:27 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 11:54:16 2013. yup. |
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| (1244932) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 14:47:44 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:17:38 2013. yeah..i hated using that underpass...rank is the best i can describe it without getting too graphic. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 29 14:54:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 14:03:03 2013. Chesnut Street incline in reverse ? |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Aug 29 15:08:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 12:01:27 2013. But it also was always meant to go straight too...and much further east than the Liberty El. The Liberty El was to be a branch of it, and the Rockaway another branch of it. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 15:10:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 29 14:54:55 2013. Pretty much. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 29 18:06:34 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 29 11:54:16 2013. it was to link up,or go under the Jamaica EL.rando,i,ve got the contract drawings showing that the bellmouths were for a future subway. |
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| (1244985) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 19:49:40 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 29 18:06:34 2013. More likely under. |
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| (1244988) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Aug 29 20:16:33 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by SubwaySurf on Wed Aug 28 22:48:41 2013. I used it back in 1968. Gave me the creeps. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Aug 30 14:19:50 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:17:38 2013. So perhaps the purpose of the lower level SB platform was to allow transfer from southbound "E" to go northbound on the "A", "AA", or "CC"? Similar to the setup on the 2nd Ave el at 57th Street! That would make some sense! |
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