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| (1244417) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 08:16:01 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:47:05 2013. So who's Hyland? |
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| (1244418) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 08:18:16 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 08:16:01 2013. John Joseph Hyland, Jr was an admiral in the United States Navy who commanded the U.S. Pacific Fleet from 1967-1970. |
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| (1244419) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 08:21:00 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:26:07 2013. Probably for the same reason the other major pro sports facility on the IND (161) is a local station: They didn't think it was justified. |
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| (1244420) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by NorthShore on Tue Aug 27 08:37:07 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 08:21:00 2013. The 155 St./8 Ave. Station has a gigantic mezzanine for direct access to the Polo Grounds.A lot of the mezzanine is is now boarded off and used for service aress. |
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| (1244422) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Aug 27 08:44:10 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Aug 26 08:41:00 2013. The reason they BUILT the PABT, is because their were literally a dozen different bus stations in the Times Square/42 st areaAnd lets not forget the Hotel Dixie (today's Hotel Carter). It had a below level bus terminal with twelve stalls and a turntable. The turntable is still visible today. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1244430) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Aug 27 09:21:43 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:26:07 2013. It does need to be remembered at the time the 8th Avenue line was built, Madison Square Garden ran from 49th-50th Streets and 8th-9th Avenues.The IND was designed in 1922. At that time Madison Square Garden was located at...Madison Square. It did not move to 8th and 50th until 1925, when construction was well under way. |
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| (1244440) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 10:33:56 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by NorthShore on Tue Aug 27 08:37:07 2013. Yes! I totally forgot about the Polo Grounds. Sorry.That's a local stop too. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 11:47:17 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 08:14:42 2013. Yes, exactly, so obviously they were actually VERY sure it would connect some day (unfortunately they were wrong). |
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| (1244452) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 11:54:18 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:41:11 2013. Yes, obviously the final configuration of Fulton was not agreed upon when Rockaway became a terminal. Rockaway became a terminal due to circumstance. If not for WWII, it probably never would have been used as a terminal. Broadway Junction (Bway-East New York) made much more sense as a temporary terminal, it was even completed, but they couldn't use it because of the lack of metal available because of the war effort, so they didn't have metal for tracks and signaling, in addition the workforce was then in war mode. So they did what they could....and used Rockaway. This also allowed the removal of the Fulton El west of Rockaway. |
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| (1244453) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 11:58:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 08:18:16 2013. Perhaps you mean John FRANCIS Hylan (no D) who was mayor of New York???http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Francis_Hylan Don't know what John Joseph Hyland has to do with this discussion. |
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| (1244454) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:01:18 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:29:19 2013. LOL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_HylandHave no idea what he has to do with the IND subway though..... |
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| (1244455) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 12:02:12 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 11:58:39 2013. Lmao! i know! spider-pig asked for Hyland not Hylan.it was just a joke man... |
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| (1244456) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 12:03:07 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:01:18 2013. he's joking. can't ya tell? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Aug 27 12:07:04 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:01:18 2013. Dan, how did you steal Chris's password? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:14:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 12:03:07 2013. Of course! But Handbrake wasn't when he posted about Hyland... :) |
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| (1244465) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Aug 27 12:19:09 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 10:33:56 2013. u r right, da 155th st station on da B and D line is a local stop.chud1. :).... |
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| (1244472) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Gene B. on Tue Aug 27 13:27:29 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:47:08 2013. Maybe, but I believe the station was on two levels because of the 42nd St station being on two levels. The latter was done by Mayor John Hylan to block the westward expansion of the IRT 7 line. |
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| (1244474) | |
Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 13:41:43 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 08:14:42 2013. 67 Av would have been beyond where the Rockaway branch would have turned off so it would have been unlikely to have a "JAMAICA AND ROCKAWAY" sign. |
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| (1244479) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 14:07:30 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by chud1 on Tue Aug 27 12:19:09 2013. Both 161st and 155th are essentially express stops served by local trains in peak direction only. 50th St is an anomaly, served by 8th Ave locals and Queens-bound trains of either type. |
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| (1244492) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 14:25:15 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 22:43:59 2013. This includes sealed off stairways to the street along Essex Street.Just a note about the stairways on Essex: there are plainly marked trapdoors on the east side of Essex Street, approximately one per intersection starting from Grand Street and going north for several blocks (except for Delancey, of course). On the few occasions I've seen these trapdoors open, they are tiled with the dirty yellow tiles common to IND entrances in the area. |
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| (1244495) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 14:37:47 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Aug 27 09:21:43 2013. True, but they likely were already planning a "new" (now "old" MSG) for 49th-50th Streets by the time the IND planners were designing their subway or the lower level on 50th (extending to 49th) was put in at the request of MSG officials who may very well were already planning to build the still-beloved "old" MSG by that time. |
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| (1244503) | |
Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 15:13:57 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 13:41:43 2013. yup,i know. i don't know how I missed that though. thanx |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 15:15:03 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 14:37:47 2013. I'm sure the real reason the E train tracks are below the 8th Av tracks at 50 St station was so that the E tracks could get through the complicated junction at 8th Av-53 St without interfering with the D train tracks coming from 59 St. |
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| (1244506) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 15:55:10 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Gene B. on Tue Aug 27 13:27:29 2013. That conjecture has never been verified. The IRT was near receivership in 1922, when the IND plans were first drawn up. Besides, the City would have to approve of any expansion of the (now) #7 line, west from Times Square. No one could put anything under 41st Street without City approval. And, under Hylan, that never would have happened. In addition, there was no real reason to extend the #7 line into the then, Hell's Kitchen, presumably to 41St/9Av. There was no reason to do so. As I wrote before, even the 9th Ave el had only a local stop at 42St/9Av. I doubt if there even would have been a free transfer, considering that there was no transfer farther up at 66th/B'way between the 9th Ave el and the IRT Westside subway. |
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| (1244507) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:02:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Aug 26 07:55:10 2013. I do not see any connection between the proposed 2nd Ave subway to Delancey/Essex, from the area of houston St. later maps show proposed connections to the WillyB and tha manhattan bridges, but not to Delancey/Essex. |
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| (1244508) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:09:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:01:18 2013. John Francis Hylan was the mayor, Not John Hyland! |
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| (1244509) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 16:11:59 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:09:13 2013. lol, we know. |
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| (1244510) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:12:15 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by NorthShore on Tue Aug 27 08:37:07 2013. Along with most of the stairways. I think there are only 3 in use. |
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| (1244511) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 16:16:36 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:09:13 2013. NO KIDDING!!!!!! |
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| (1244512) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 16:18:18 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 12:01:18 2013. Save the "DUH" jokes for April 1st! |
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| (1244516) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 16:39:35 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 08:12:19 2013. True, but again that had to do with the inability of the entire structure to be of any use for connection to any subway lines. AsI mentioned in my post, had the entire Fulton el been rebuilt at least all the way from Nostrand to Grant the IND could have been connected to it anywhere from Nostrand east instead of at Hudson St which was the actual case. |
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| (1244518) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 16:42:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 11:54:18 2013. I think you're missing what I was saying. I don't think the cessation of construction east of Rocky Av had anything to do with WWII as the line was opened that far in 1937. I suspect that construction started east of there only after unification for the reasons I stated in my post. |
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| (1244521) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 17:04:40 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 16:42:41 2013. I guess they finished the Fulton subway in stages, so they ended that stage at Rockaway Ave. From there, you could take the Fulton St el, Fulton St trolley, or the Jamaica Ave trolley, which looped at Hopkinson Ave. My mother remembered using the temporary walkways to/from the subway cars which were using the center express tracks, east of Utica. Only Ralph and Rockaway Ave's had those wooden walkways. Why they couldn't just use the subway platforms and turn the trains east of Rocky always puzzled me. You know, a switch relay from A1 to either A3 and/or A4, then back onto A2 to Manhattan. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 17:07:05 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 17:04:40 2013. After all, they used a X-over from A3 to A4, east of Rockaway Ave, using the walkways from the center tracks. |
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| (1244526) | |
Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Aug 27 17:19:46 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 13:41:43 2013. The turnouts for the Rockaway connection are that close to the 67th Ave station? I always thought they were midway between 67th Ave and 63rd Drive, or closer to 63rd Dr. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Aug 27 17:27:52 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Aug 27 17:19:46 2013. they are at 66th ave,midway between the 2 stations. |
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| (1244541) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Gene B. on Tue Aug 27 18:44:04 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 15:55:10 2013. Do you have a better theory? |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Aug 27 18:55:16 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Gene B. on Tue Aug 27 18:44:04 2013. If you want to allow people to sit in the train while waiting for it to fill up (which is more luxurious than standing on the platform while you wait), you need an extra platform where it can stay for 5 to 10 minutes. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 19:51:55 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Gene B. on Tue Aug 27 18:44:04 2013. No, but the IRT never requested an extension west of Times Square. Nor was it in the Dual Contracts of 1913. If you were paranoid about a possible IRT extension, why build a whole single rack with a platform, when you could have blocked access through 41St/8Av with a simple concrete wall? And call it a necessary foundation! |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Aug 27 19:54:15 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 13:41:43 2013. There was a wooden, framed sign hanging over the first Manhattan-bound staircase at the 67th Avenue entrance that said "To Rockaway, Manhattan & Brooklyn" (bracketed by red arrows pointing down) until at least 1988. The Jamaica stairway simply said "To Jamaica" (same red arrows pointing down). Dave's site used to have photos of that, and one at Continental that had been painted over but partially exposed. Those, and tons of other "older" photos disappeared, along with the more informative narratives, before the move to the Wiki format. I wish the old style could be resurrected. |
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| (1244567) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Aug 27 20:34:28 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:47:08 2013. I believe the real reason for two levels at 50th St. is because the Ethel turns right just north of that station onto 53rd. It had to have its own level in order to do so since 50th St. is so close to 53rd. It would have been impossible to put in a grade-separated turnoff otherwise. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 21:39:37 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 19:51:55 2013. Exactly! I never fell for that legend. |
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| (1244605) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Tue Aug 27 22:29:57 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:29:19 2013. A predecessor of Linsley? |
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| (1244618) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 23:40:47 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 14:37:47 2013. Ironically, this MSG was built on the site of a Manhattan streetcar's car barn. |
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| (1244628) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Aug 28 01:10:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:52:35 2013. Ehh, that explanation sounds a little flaky. Since the situation was supposed to be "temporary", it would have made sense to have the move for the time being and divert the construction resources to the permanent structures. Otherwise, this would only make sense if the Manhattan Bridge diversion was meant to permanent, or at least VERY long term. |
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| (1244639) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Aug 28 02:16:52 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Aug 27 20:34:28 2013. I thought that was the reason as well, there just wasn't enough space for the turn AND the junction. |
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| (1244640) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 02:27:05 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 17:07:05 2013. If you notice the alignment of the subway east of Rocky Av, it almost immediately bears left (north) under Truxton Pk. Since at the time the IND stopped construction at Rocky Av, it had not yet been determined the exact alignment of any future construction, there could have been no way to construct any kind of subway infrastructure east of that point. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 05:23:39 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by tunnelrat on Tue Aug 27 17:27:52 2013. Yup. |
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| (1244670) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 28 07:32:23 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 17:04:40 2013. During this time, there was a diamond crossover between the express tracks north of the station and trains stub ended here. Between the express and local tracks in the area of the crossover were extra columns to support the subway ceiling to make up for the lack of columns that would have between the express tracks, which were not built due to the installation of the crossover. The crossover switches were controlled from a tower at Utica Avenue. The outlines of the now painted out crossovers and signals can still be seen. The levers are also still in place on the machine, but are now painted yellow and are no longer used.At the nine-car stop marker on the southbound local track, there is a short section of ballasted type 1 track on both express tracks where the bumper blocks were located. When Broadway Junction opened, the temporary wooden platform extension was removed from the northbound local track only. Southbound trains continued on the local track south of Utica Avenue to the diamond crossover between the express tracks north of Broadway Junction. Trains then used this crossover to cross to the northbound express track (and another crossover to get to the local one). They then returned to either northbound track at Broadway Junction to resume service to Manhattan. Construction on the Fulton Street Line east of Rockaway Avenue halted in 1942 due to World War II restrictions on materials. The entire tunnel infrastructure east of Euclid Avenue, including the Pitkin Yard and the yard leads, was completed, but rails and signals were not installed and Broadway Junction only had its tile completed. The tile work there is the last of the old style tiles as the tile work on the stations east is of a more modern type. Track and signals were completed into Broadway Junction in 1946 and to Euclid Avenue two years later. |
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| (1244728) | |
Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Aug 28 15:01:42 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 27 19:51:55 2013. I found a fascinating New York Times article from February 12, 1927 that discusses how the lower level of 42nd Street, then already excavated by the contractor, would block extension of the Queensboro Route to New Jersey or the far west side.The headline is: SEES SUBWAY LINE TO JERSEY BLOCKED Forty-Second Street Group Holds Eighth Av. Platforms Will Prevent Extension TWO-LEVEL STATION A BAR Queensboro Route at Same Depth, Association Finds -- Opposes 53d Street Subway. The abstract reads: Extension of the Queensboro subway beyond Eighth Avenue to the Hudson River and ultimately to New Jersey, as favored by a number of civic organizations, will be blocked forever by the construction of a double-deck station on the Eighth Avenue subway between Fortieth and Forty-second Streets if the plans of the Board of Transportation are carried out, according to a statement issued yesterday by the Forty-second Street Property Owners' and Merchants' Association. Among the assertions in the article are: *In 1920, the Board of Transportation explained to the Board of Estimate that the route of the Queensboro Line needed to be shifted from 42nd Street to ensure that it would have an unobstructed terminus that could be extended to the far west side or New Jersey; *There was a bill in Albany to authorize the Port Authority to such a subway from the about-to-open Seventh Avenue (Times Square) station under 41st Street to the Hudson River and to New Jersey; *The 42nd Street Association said this "incident" (construction of the lower level of the 8th Avenue Line station) illustrated their "growing suspicion" of the city's subway policy; *The lower level of 42nd Street was described as being used for the southbound Queens trains; *The upcoming Board of Estimate public hearing on whether the 53rd Street line was described as a joke on the public because of all the work being done between 37th Street and 57th Street that would be useless if the 53rd Street line is not built; *The BoT's construction of lowering one track between 37th Street and 46th Street has the effect of defeating the purpose of building the Queensboro Line under 41st Street; *The Walker Administration took no action to alter the Hylan administration's of planning an independent system for municipal operation, citing the proposed 53rd Street Line's lack of connection to any north-south subway lines. This is all quite interesting. The extension of the Queensboro Line was proposed by civic groups for the Port Authority to build. The lower level of 42nd Street was for the Queens Line, as we have assumed in this thread. It would allow the Queens Line trains to get as far as 42nd Street without merging into either the local or express tracks even though connections to the local and express were built north or 42nd Street, which seems like a limited purpose given the cost. It gad the result if not the purpose of blocking the extension of the Queensboro Line. |
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