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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 14 21:13:20 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 21:09:40 2012.

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Compare the wear and tear on a Horizon verses a Comet-II contemporary. From midwest people I know, the Horizons are a hell of lot more worn out, and get t 4 X the mileage. At 25 years of age, that matters.

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(1192179)

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 22:05:47 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 14 14:15:51 2012.

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The USA got where it needed to go for 1½ centuries with high floor and low platform. Canada is still going strong like that too. That means this time period is the anomaly.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 22:18:08 2012, in response to Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 13 21:38:10 2012.

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New Bloomberg article . . . more trouble in paradise?

Amtrak Acela Replacement Plan Creates Bombardier Rivalry

By Angela Greiling Keane
Dec 14, 2012 2:42 PM GMT-0500
Amtrak’s plan to replace its fleet of Acela trains provides an opportunity for Siemens AG, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., Hitachi Ltd. and others who want to compete with Bombardier Inc., the supplier of equipment used since the service’s start.

“There’s not that many companies that build the trains,” said Andy Kunz, president and chief executive officer of the U.S. High Speed Rail Association, a Washington-based group whose members include Bombardier, Alstom SA, Siemens and Patentes Talgo SA. “But the handful that there are would all be ready to bid.”

Replacing the Acela, which can operate at speeds of as much as 150 miles per hour, may be Amtrak’s biggest equipment purchase since it bought the original trains in a contract valued at $1.2 billion when signed in 1996. Amtrak doesn’t have a cost estimate because it’s at “the very beginning of this process,” Steve Kulm, a railroad spokesman, said.

Montreal-based Bombardier worked with Alstom, based in Levallois-Perret, France, to build the 20 Acela train sets that consist of locomotives integrated with passenger cars. Amtrak said yesterday it scrapped plans to buy 40 more Acela passenger cars from Bombardier, enough to add two to each existing train.

“It’s disappointing for us, but it’s not a total surprise,” Maryanne Roberts, a Bombardier spokeswoman, said in a telephone interview today. “There were discussions between us. They approached us at start of the 2012.”

The company is interested in selling more equipment to Amtrak, she said.

“Based on their comments, they first will issue a request for information in 2013, and a request for proposals later in the year,” she said. “We are interested.”

Bombardier rose 2 cents to C$3.42 as of 2:40 p.m. in Toronto.

Bullet Trains

The 12-year-old Acela, which operates between Washington and Boston, is by far Amtrak’s fastest and most profitable service. It produced about a fourth of the taxpayer-supported railroad’s $2 billion in ticket revenue for the year ended Sept. 30. About 3.4 million passengers rode Acela trains during that period.

Amtrak’s decision to buy new trains comes as it develops long-range plans to offer service as fast as 220 miles per hour (354 kilometers per hour) in the Northeast, an effort it has said will cost $151 billion. The railroad doubled its share of air-rail travel between New York and Washington, to about 75 percent, between 2000 and 2011 after the Acela was introduced and airport security became more time-consuming after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

“What we really need to do is replace the Acela with new equipment,” Amtrak Chief Executive Officer Joseph Boardman told a congressional committee in Washington. “I told our folks they need to get this done by the time I’m 70, and I’ll be 64 next year.”

Increased Demand

The Washington-based railroad is already buying new equipment for its slower, long-distance train services, replacing cars made as long ago as the 1940s. In July 2010, it announced a $298.1 million contract for 130 passenger cars with the U.S. unit of CAF, based in Gipuzkoa, Spain. Three months later, it said it would spend $466 million on 70 new electric locomotives made by Siemens, based in Munich.

In a fleet plan issued in March, Amtrak estimated the lifespan of Acela trains to be 20 to 25 years.

“By the time they get to be replaced, they’ll be 18 to 20” years old, Kulm, the Amtrak spokesman, said. “It’s not that the equipment is wearing out; it’s that the demand has increased.”

Amtrak gets rid of passenger rail cars too quickly, said Michael Weinman, an operating officer at Amtrak in the 1970s, said in an e-mail. He is managing director of PTSI Transportation, a consultancy based in Rutherford, New Jersey.

Car Retirement

“Only Amtrak insists on retiring cars prematurely, and has gone through 1,000 or 2,000 fine cars, simply scrapping them and never maintaining them,” Weinman said. “This should be considered fiscal imprudence, as they are the stewards of the taxpayer largess which was used to pay for these vehicles.”

Amtrak has continued to work with Bombardier despite a series of mechanical and design failures in the early years of Acela service that embroiled the companies in litigation. Its start was delayed almost a year and twice, in 2002 and 2005, Amtrak parked the entire Acela fleet to fix cracks in brakes and shock absorbers.

Other defects included the passenger cars being four inches too wide to use tilting mechanisms that allow for higher speeds while rounding corners, and restroom doors that “frequently trapped passengers from exiting the toilet,” author Frank Wilner wrote in “Amtrak Past, Present, Future,” published this year.

Wilner has worked as a spokesman for the United Transportation Union and as chief of staff for the U.S. Surface Transportation Board, which regulates rail rates and mergers.
Old Technology

Amtrak abandoned its plan to buy more Acela passenger cars after its inspector general questioned the “high dollar value and Amtrak’s plan to award a sole-source contract,” according to a Dec. 4 report.

“They were too expensive,” Boardman said.

The cost of replacing the Acela will be higher than the fleet’s original cost because of rail safety regulations imposed since 1996, Tom Simpson, president of the Washington-based Railway Supply Institute, said in an interview.

Those include higher standards for crashworthiness of passenger rail cars and a requirement for technology, known as positive train control, that can automatically stop a train before a collision.

The Acela is built with technology that dates back 15 years so it makes sense for Amtrak to look at newer options, David Gunn, Amtrak’s president from 2002 to 2005, said in an interview.

‘Best Face’

The Acela is heavier than bullet trains in Europe because it was built to stringent U.S. crash standards, he said. That’s necessary in part because U.S. passenger and freight trains share tracks, even on the Amtrak-owned Northeast Corridor.

Because just two rail tunnels lead into New York’s Penn Station, the only way to get more passengers on the popular service is to add rail cars, and the Acela was built to operate at one length, Gunn said. Maintenance facilities in New York, Washington and Boston won’t accommodate longer trains, he said.

“You can create a longer Acela, but it would create a bunch of additional problems,” Gunn said. “If you were going for new equipment, you wouldn’t just dust off the Acela.”

While Acela trains can travel as fast as 150 miles per hour (241 kilometers per hour), the limitations of tracks and tunnels along most of the route dictate that they move more slowly. Seventeen are in operation on weekdays with trains leaving Washington and Boston, and New York in both directions, about hourly.

Replacing the Acela rather than making the trains longer could delay getting additional capacity on the popular route, Ross Capon, president of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, a Washington-based advocacy group, said in an interview.

“My concern is, when all is said and done, the additional capacity will be farther in the future,” Capon said. “I just wonder if it’s trying to put the best face on a bad situation.”

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(1192185)

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 14 22:19:51 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 14 21:13:20 2012.

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Well, that begs the question then: did Amtrak get its money's worth from Acela I?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 22:22:31 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 14 22:19:51 2012.

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Retiring them at age 20 says "no". Not having steps and trapdoors obviously makes them more difficult to redeploy. And I wonder why BBD tried to push a gas-turbine "JetTrain" instead of building a diesel power car (which can get up to 140 mph or faster what with modern technology and all)?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 14 23:03:26 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 22:05:47 2012.

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um, no. GCT, 30th St, Penn, Newark Penn, Trenton, N Phl, were all built high. In the cases of Penn and GCT a century ago; the others 1933 The IC electrification was done in 1926. As in any field of endeavor, there are the early adopters and the slow.

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(1192192)

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 14 23:44:55 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 14 22:18:08 2012.

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well, we all know how ugly sole source can be.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by WillD on Fri Dec 14 23:46:34 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by kp5308 on Fri Dec 14 19:54:38 2012.

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Why not share with the rest of us the inside poop on how a project like that is handled?

I was on the surveying side. We placed a lot of curb, a lot of sidewalk, and the foundations for the platforms. The foundations for the platforms were by far the most involved elements of the construction process. The high plats required heavy equipment to bore the holes, heavy equipment to place the prefab support structures, and concrete pumpers to pour the platform slabs. By comparison the sidewalks, which even I've been able to build, were placed with far less effort on the part of the contractor.

I've done both & it takes much more physical & mental effort in the field to pour a "sidewalk" than do a prefab job with footers. I'm sure these guys would agree with me. This comment screams of no actual experience doing the labor.

What FredG said. A low platform is just a sidewalk with a bit of additional aggregate under it.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by WillD on Sat Dec 15 00:04:24 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 14 14:55:24 2012.

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As ever you ignored the actual discussion in this subthread. The discussion was not the construction of new low platforms versus the construction of new high platforms. It was the replacement of low platforms with high platforms for the sake of allowing the foolishly high platform only Acelas to be cascaded to Regional services. Thus the low platforms are free, because they exist, and the high platforms you'd have Amtrak blow their scarce capital funding on are infinitely more expensive.

Yes there is a slab, and over the length of a train ground needs to be made level no matter which solution you use.

A lot easier, and a LOT cheaper to do that with cut and fill than with driven piles and a precast platform on which the platform will sit.

You need ramps that go over or under the tracks to serve the trains on the other platform,

Or you can just have the passengers use a grade crossing. There's no requirement that pedestrian flow be grade separated.

Ground level platforms, such as I am used to on Long Island, such as we have here in North Dakota cannot accommodate low floor trains in any event and will need to be built up to match the floor level of the equipment to be used.

Sure they can, at least to the same degree a high platform can with bridge plates.

And GO Transit has an even better solution than the bridge plates most systems use:



What LION says is if you must build a new station then the height of the platform is irrelevant to the overall costs of construction.

Nobody is talking about building new platforms. We're talking about how you'd have Amtrak squander their meager funding on wholly unnecessary rebuilding of perfectly good stations simply because you cannot bear to part with the Acelas.

LION says:Climb out of the 19th Century and join the 21st Century before you get run over by a train.

High platforms are obsolete. The only reason to build high platforms is to allow space for underfloor equipment on the railcars serving those stations. That is no longer a requirement with modern low floor EMUs, DMUs, and railcars and there's no reason to construct new build high platforms in territory currently equipped with low platforms.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by WillD on Sat Dec 15 00:23:11 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 14 16:25:44 2012.

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Per the DVRPC's reporting on SEPTA's studies each passenger takes around 1.75 seconds for a passenger to board a train from a high platform, while it takes around 3.6 seconds for a passenger to board from a rail level platform. Exiting the train is a lot closer, with 1.9 seconds for a high platform versus 3.25 seconds for a low platform. However, SEPTA does estimate that their platform edge steps reduce the time to access the train or low platform by a second, providing far more effectiveness on a per dollar basis than any high platform station.

The DVRPC estimated that fully equipping the R5 to Doylestown with high platforms would save at most just 6 minutes. For an Amtrak regional, most of which make fewer station stops on the NEC, the savings will be even smaller. Amtrak is better off upgrading the power infrastructure and track than rebuilding platforms just to keep the Acelas on the roster.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by WillD on Sat Dec 15 00:31:25 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 14 13:46:53 2012.

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Not only for ADA, but as the baby boomers approach knee/hip issues, and the much younger white collar giant briefcase crowd proliferate, the era of climbing up/down will become solely the stuff of excursions and low end tourist operations. If nothing else, roro is faster meaning shorter dwell.

As Olog noted, high platforms are *not* roll-on, roll-off. There's a bridge plate which must be used before anything should be rolled onto or off of a train.

In terms of accessibility to passengers with some mobility difficulties, a low platform such as the Superliners, Surfliners, and Bombardier Bilevels presents a far more favorable boarding situation to a high platform. At least then you have one or two very clearly marked steps to climb as opposed to a potential gap, railcar tilt, or other issues to contend with at a high platform. And a fall from a low floor car makes for far less danger than falling between a high platform and railcar.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 00:40:27 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 13 22:05:06 2012.

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That's still a pitifully short service life for such expensive equipment.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 01:01:12 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 00:40:27 2012.

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Version 1.0 of anything is fraught with issues and headaches. Amtrak obviously saw that in the expense to add two more unpowered cars with no additional power in the power cars. As bad as this may seem, better to do this than the alternative. Now that there's experience behind the design, new ones should have a reasonable life since they'll be 2.0 or better after the learning curve is now out of the way. They might even tilt properly.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 01:29:37 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 01:01:12 2012.

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Version 1.0 of anything is fraught with issues and headaches

The whole Acela thingy was like an attempt to reinvent the wheel, not starting from scratch. Claiming that it's Version 1.0 of its genre is like claiming the X2000 didn't exist.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 01:39:28 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 01:29:37 2012.

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Bombardier 1.0 ... I'm surprised you didn't bring up a proper "1.0 genre" if you're going to try to play that game ... then again, it wasn't your JC or PRR crowd that did it (with WORKING tilt and all) ... it was the venerable New York Central's "Xplorer" train back in 1956:



But still ... apples and kumquats.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Dec 15 06:47:18 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by WillD on Fri Dec 14 23:46:34 2012.

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Some of the MBTA's mini-highs don't look much more complicated than a pressure treated wood deck you might build behind your house. On the other hand the adjacent low platform is just a strip of asphalt with landscaping ties for the edge.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by kp5308 on Sat Dec 15 09:02:32 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Fred G on Fri Dec 14 20:59:24 2012.

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Poured is more forgiving on the layout tho. At least that's what they always beat into us :O

Ahhhhh...but it needs to be laid out in the field. That is the discipline that is necessary & it seems to be somewhat of a dying art :o(

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by kp5308 on Sat Dec 15 09:18:15 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by WillD on Fri Dec 14 23:46:34 2012.

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The foundations for the platforms were by far the most involved elements of the construction process.

And they get poured in place, right?

Right!

By comparison the sidewalks, which even I've been able to build, were placed with far less effort on the part of the contractor.

Sure, that is why prefab has pretty much taken over. It is much more difficult! Besides, do you really think a commercial platform is built to the same standards as a home project?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:42:38 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Dec 15 00:23:11 2012.

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The high platforms(entire NEC, BOS-WAS, inland route, Empire through at least SDY, and entire Keystone) are planned to come regardless of where the acelas end up running.

Also- With Amtrak trains, there are crewmembers at each door, meaning at max, 3-4, usually 1-2 doors are open at low platform stations. Disembarking at Hartford can exceed 10 minutes.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:45:51 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 00:40:27 2012.

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There is almost no chance they'll scrap the old Acelas.

They will probably end up either on the Keystone, or perhaps dedicated to regionals which stay north of DC.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 11:19:08 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 01:01:12 2012.

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If they did the 40 cars, they would have scrapped them in 10 years with their parent train sets.

I'd rather have seen that money spent on 40 Next Gen or Viewliner Business Class cars for the Regionals, and cascade those Amfleet cars to the rest of the system

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 11:19:59 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:45:51 2012.

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Maybe diesel haulage for the Empire Corridor.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 11:43:42 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 11:19:59 2012.

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I certainly would not discount such as a possibility, however, as I believe Empire corridor trains to Albany are pooled with those to Niagara Falls, and the Ethan Allen, I am not sure such would be as good of a home for the Acelas.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Dec 15 11:51:13 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 11:43:42 2012.

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They would either have to provide totally new locomotives for the cars or extensively modify existing diesels. NOT PRACTICAL. Look for the Acela trainsets to be used on lesser Corridor schedules.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 13:42:11 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by merrick1 on Sat Dec 15 06:47:18 2012.

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Well, Boston South Station had low platforms for how long . . . ? One of the biggest mistakes the MBTA made was building high platforms; they should have used gallery cars or low-door Comets (not high-door!) for their commuter rail. If all the high platforms in the Northeast had been ripped out instead of built up, we could have had low-floor commuter cars, and Talgos for high-speed service between Boston and Washington DC . . .

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 15 14:12:41 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:45:51 2012.

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What would it take to break up a couple of Acela sets, then distribute the passenger cars among the remaining sets? Even adding a third locomotive, if the train is too long for 2?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 14:59:12 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by RockParkMan on Sat Dec 15 11:51:13 2012.

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True, but "lesser used" schedules are hard to come by these days, except for the Keystones.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 15:00:14 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 15 14:12:41 2012.

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You can run 2 more cars per set, then how do you fill the deficit in trains sets ?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 15 15:15:22 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Dec 15 00:31:25 2012.

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No bridge plate is necessary if the cars and platform are properly designed. OTOH, the California Cars when first delivered had mega thousand $ swing out, mechanical lifts. About as nice as high floor bus lifts. And they were lemons. There are storage slots on Superliners for bridge plates--but the plates are not always "in stock".

So, since my experience is that high platforms DO work well, I remain in favor of them.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 15:22:15 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 15 15:15:22 2012.

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Commuter rail platform gaps have to be left wider than rapid transit.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 15 15:55:45 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 15:22:15 2012.

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Indeed a check of the Metra home page describes bridge plates presumably deployed by crew. OTOH, for roll on/of suitcases, baby strollers etc, one suspects the plates are not a necessity.
FWIW, the height differential alone @ 34th & 6th NB trying to board an R 4x a decade ago w/ my stepdaughter was a challenge. Good thing I was able to shove hard enough to get her "power chair" up the several inches.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 16:16:48 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 01:01:12 2012.

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Weren't the Acela trainsets built using well established European HSR technology? It's not like they were the first tilt trains ever put into service.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 16:33:05 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 16:16:48 2012.

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First tilt train over here that I know of is the New York Central "Xplorer" train. Posted pics of it in here somewhere last night. As to the Acelas, it was Bombardier's first foray into it. They had a LOT of issues before acceptance and most of the fixes were pure cobbery. I recall reading that they can't tilt the way they were intended because of their width. Like I said, 1.0 designs are headaches, that's why in software at least, NEVER install anybody's 1.0 unless you have your own geek chained to your desk. It's like that in other industries too.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 15 16:37:54 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 16:33:05 2012.

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the tilt mechanism had to be hobbled because 4" were added to the car width for better aisles. Unfortunately that meant that at "full tilt" passing trains would have kissed--not a good idea @ 130 mph +

IIRC the 4 " issue surfaced through Don Phillips column in Trains mag a year or so before revenue deployment.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 15 16:41:55 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 15 16:37:54 2012.

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All the more reason to send the handmedowns to wherever Olog lives. They can unbolt the restrainers. :)

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 17:44:10 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 16:16:48 2012.

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Some of the underpinnings (running gear, i.e. traction and trucks) were reportedly based on those of the TGV.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 15 18:56:07 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 15 16:16:48 2012.

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Weren't the Acela trainsets built using well established European HSR technology? It's not like they were the first tilt trains ever put into service.

Allegedly, we ended up getting an Alstom locomotive design that SNCF didn't want*, and a bunch of modernized VIA LRC coaches from Bombardier. Coincidentally, at the same time, the Swiss ended up receiving their ICN units which so far have performed without much trouble, the British received their first batch of Alstom Pendalino based Class 390 units, and the German ICE-T units were still in infancy. All of the designs noted are illegal for use in the United States, and none would meet Tier II regs as they're all multiple units, and Amtrak probably isn't going to kick the freight off the NEC.

Coincidentally, Amtrak has relatively trouble free tilting units in use, but they're in the Pacific Northwest. IIRC, Talgos are simply out of the question for any high floor application.

*It would have been the equivalent of DB's BR 101 which is still the backbone of their InterCity services, but SNCF has implicitly opted to give up on any intercity service that isn't TGV-serviced, so there was no need to build a high speed locomotive hauled electric locomotive or cab car set. The other irony is that Bombardier ended up merging with the company that would have sold us Swedish X2000s...

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 15 19:39:54 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 15:00:14 2012.

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I meant breaking up the sets after you get the replacements ("Acela II"), then using the longer Acela I's on the regionals (since the point was made that the standard Acela I has fewer passenger cars than a regional). The regionals will then be a mix of Amfleets and Acela I's.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 15 19:49:04 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 15 19:39:54 2012.

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I suppose, and use the shorter one you steal from to make Keystones.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 20:35:41 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:42:38 2012.

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Those platforms will not come. The money does not exist for them.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 07:45:58 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 15 20:35:41 2012.

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Rochester, NY is in fact getting high level platforms with the new station.
The ones at Albany are to be extended along with the 4th station track.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Dec 16 12:53:14 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 15 09:42:38 2012.

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The only stations that AMTK serves between DC and NYC that are low platform are Washington (lower level), Aberdeen, Newark (DE), and possibly Cornwells Heights. It wouldn't be hard to jack up those platforms at a minimum.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 13:07:30 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 15 18:56:07 2012.

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Aren't the Talgos (not the 4 just built) running on some sort of waiver to FRA structural integrity ?

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 13:33:04 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Dec 16 12:53:14 2012.

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Acela never stops there anyway.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 16 17:48:23 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 13:07:30 2012.

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The FRA grandfathered them back in 2000.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 16 17:57:49 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 15 18:56:07 2012.

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. . . and Amtrak probably isn't going to kick the freight off the NEC

Amtrak isn't going to kick the regionals and commuter traffic off the NEC either. FRA's Tier II regulations don't go away once freight is off a corridor that is part of the general railway network. (And besides, Deutsche Bahn operates freight on some of their high-speed corridors anyhow.)

I wouldn't call the Acelas a modernized LRC, especially in light of what the acronym LRC stands for (Light, Rapid, Comfortable); and the LRCs always had low-platform boarding (they ran into Boston South Station back when it had low platforms, after all) . . .

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by R30A on Sun Dec 16 20:37:17 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 07:45:58 2012.

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Schenectady is to begin construction shortly too. It isn't like this is far off...

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 16 23:34:52 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 16 07:45:58 2012.

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Rochester only got $15 million from the feds, which is $5 million short of what they requested. Where is the rest of the money coming from? Bad enough that the current station came out of Amtrak besides, what with arising out of the earlier demolition of the former Bragdon station. Not enough passengers to justify any high platform (less than 400 per day). This will fizzle.

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 17 20:14:12 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 16 23:34:52 2012.

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It previosuly got $2.8M in ARRA funding to design.
Tiger money is $15M
NYS is $7.5M
The city $500K
Phase one will cost $26M, and will include high-level platform
Doesn't sound like it will "fizzle".

http://www.esparail.org/index.php/content/rochester_new_station

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Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 17 20:21:54 2012, in response to Re: Amtrak Announces Order for complete replacement of 20 Acela Express trainsets, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 17 20:14:12 2012.

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They are still short. We are going into another year too, and if cost estimates suddenly go up, the project is not in the clear. If there are any problems with freight train clearance assuming the high platform gets built, watch out for lawsuits.

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