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| Does the J Train need a Third Track? (1182852) | |
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| (1182863) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Oct 25 16:39:20 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. No, it does not need express service. The "skip-stop" service does increase the speed of particular trains but they remain in sequence. People would be pissed if they got less service at their station, and it is doubtful that the terminals could manage a greatly increased frequency of service.The reason for building the third tracks was never to provide express service, although the IRT does do this. The reason is to provide flexibility in case of a breakdown and flexibility for maintenance. ROAR |
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| (1182869) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 17:15:20 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. Yes, this is a good idea. Given the current headways, you could add peak-direction express service without cutting existing service. The faster service would draw new Jamaica passengers who now take the E train, which would therefore become less congested. Midtown destinees could change to the M or F. The J is one of the longest (if not the longest) all-local lines in the outer boroughs |
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| (1182876) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by thetzar on Thu Oct 25 17:58:06 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 17:15:20 2012. Someday I'll write up my dreamland plan for that right of way. Short version: 6 subway tracks, stacked 2x2x2, like the Lex in Manhattan but taller, all heading into Manhattan through new tunnels under the East River. 2 tracks for local, 2 for express, all the way to Jamaica and past it. The bottom 2 tracks would be for direct JFK-Manhattan Airtrain service.Or, depending on which version I'm thinking of, the Airtrain could share the express tracks, and the bottom level could carry the LIRR to a new, small Manhattan terminal. Ah, dreams. |
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| (1182877) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Oct 25 17:59:58 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Oct 25 16:39:20 2012. The reason for building the third tracks was never to provide express service, although the IRT does do this. The reason is to provide flexibility in case of a breakdown and flexibility for maintenance.Which third tracks are you talking about? All the BRT/BMT third tracks anticipated express service. Express service was run on Fulton and Broadway-Brooklyn, and expresses on Culver and West End was anticipated by express stations at 18th Avenue, Kings Highway, 62nd Street and Bay Parkway. |
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| (1182881) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 25 18:42:07 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 17:15:20 2012. What about the R? |
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| (1182889) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 25 19:22:02 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by SLRT on Thu Oct 25 17:59:58 2012. Which third tracks are you talking about? All the BRT/BMT third tracks anticipated express service. Express service was run on Fulton and Broadway-Brooklyn, and expresses on Culver and West End was anticipated by express stations at 18th Avenue, Kings Highway, 62nd Street and Bay Parkway.I guess they didn't anticipate express service on the Jamaica line between Crescent and 168th St since no express stations were built. Bill Newkirk |
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| (1182892) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 25 19:27:15 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 25 19:22:02 2012. There is physical evidence in the el that it could have been added. |
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| (1182893) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 25 19:29:51 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 17:15:20 2012. How long does the J take from Parsons to Chambers, Fulton, and Broad with express and skip/stop ?How long does the E take from Parons to WTC (chambers) , transfer to A/C at Canal for Bway-Nassau (for Fulton), and walk to Wall Street ? There's your answer - no need to speed up the J. |
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| (1182895) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Oct 25 19:38:59 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. Yes, but the configuration of the line over Fulton St. would prevent it. It would also require turning some stations (Woodhaven Blvd?) into express stations. Clearance would be an issue. |
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| (1182903) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 25 20:24:32 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. If you time it right, you can have expresses leave Jamaica just ahead of a local, skip most stops and catch the preceding local at Bway Jct, just in time to bypass on the middle track. |
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| (1182904) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 25 20:25:45 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 25 20:24:32 2012. Point being no construction needed. |
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| (1182908) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Thu Oct 25 20:52:50 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 17:15:20 2012. The (J) is only an hour long end to end. With skip-stop, take away about five minutes. It's most certainly not a long local, or even a long line like the (2), (F), and (R) are. |
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| (1182944) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 23:51:36 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 25 18:42:07 2012. R folks can change to an express at various points long before they get to Manhattan. |
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| (1182945) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 23:53:16 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 25 19:29:51 2012. I'll have to check, but you don't have to change from the E to get to Wall St. You can walk from WTC. |
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| (1182968) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:34:23 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Oct 25 16:39:20 2012. LION...sorry to argue with you...but I'm pretty sure the book I have (can't remmeber the title) describing the construction of the Dual-Contract Lines was quite explicit that express service on these lines was planned. |
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| (1182969) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:35:21 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by SLRT on Thu Oct 25 17:59:58 2012. In fact, the Culver HAD express ervice int he 1970s and 80s. The 1987 serivde guide (which I have) even promised it would come back once a rehab of the line was complete. |
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| (1182970) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:38:59 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. I think if the 1958 plan to build a bypass track on Jamaica Avenue between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills and then third track the rest of the Jamica El had been done, the enitre line would be a very good way to bring Eastern Queens and LI commuters into Manhattan and relive the LIRR and Queens Blvd lines. And with the Chrystie St cut, there could even be Midtown Direct service--express all thw way from 168th (or Parsons/Archer) to Essex St.Alas, not only was this not done, but 10 years later, plans to elimiante the AJamica El were in process...Oh well. |
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| (1182971) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:40:53 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 23:53:16 2012. In cold weather, or for the physically challenged, that a LONG walk!!! Direct service on the J definitely offers advantages, IMO. |
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| (1182972) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:42:14 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by LRG5784 on Thu Oct 25 20:52:50 2012. I consider the J to be greatest line to railfan, with or without an RFW. |
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| (1182973) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by merrick1 on Fri Oct 26 07:45:21 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:40:53 2012. Won't the walk be all underground once the whole Fulton complex is opened? |
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| (1182974) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Oct 26 07:50:52 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:34:23 2012. Second Avenue Subway was also planned.Woodlawn line has no useful express stations. Remember Brooklyn lines were built by different companies, what Mr. Culver did is different from what others have done. If Jamaica was dual contracts, then they made provision because the had to, but clearly they never intended to do anything since there are no express stations. Be that as it may, the only good reason for spending money on this now would be to provide flexibility. Automated service would be cheaper to increase service, and that will not by-pass people. ROAR |
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| (1182985) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 08:31:28 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 23:53:16 2012. That's quite a hike. Calculate that into your E train travel time.People count minutes to their desk at work, not when they get off the train. |
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| (1182986) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 08:32:37 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 25 23:51:36 2012. Local stops west of Jackson Hts, that is pointless. |
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| (1182987) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 08:33:38 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by merrick1 on Fri Oct 26 07:45:21 2012. Still a time-consuming walk. |
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| (1182988) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 08:35:23 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 25 20:24:32 2012. Then the stop between Sutphin and ENY lose most of the skip/stop advantage. |
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| (1183004) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 26 09:50:39 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 25 19:27:15 2012. Was that space left for future track, or because of the modular nature of the iron work and the placement of vertical support girders to leave the street clear of obstructions?I know some lines of dual el's in both Brooklyn and the Bronx had supports in the roadways. |
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| (1183013) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 10:08:58 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 26 09:50:39 2012. There is a center track at 111th STreet. There are these little brackets along the ceneter as well as bolt holes. |
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| (1183041) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 26 12:57:41 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Oct 26 07:50:52 2012. Jamaica IS Dual Contract..at least the " rebuilt" portion over Broadway and Jamaica ave..The portion over Fulton st..is original Kings County Elevated,that has been enhanced to handle steel cars..rebuilt by the Transit Authority..then modified again by the MTA.. The intended plan to reroute the J line directly alone Jamaica ave..[the changed to Ridgewood ave] new express stations/service along Jamaica ave ,was constantly fought off by NIMBY'S during the 50's and 60's.. So nothing was done..except the changes to the outer end..and even that was a never completed. The J will never change. |
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| (1183066) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Oct 26 14:02:41 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 26 12:57:41 2012. The portion over Fulton street is not ex-Kings County structure. It was part of Brooklyn Elevated's Old Main Line: Hudson/Park/Grand/Lexington/Broadway/Fulton. A lot of people make that mistake! However, you are right that the "J" structure will never change. Third tracking the Jamaica Ave section cannot happen unless the express track is built over the existing Fulton Street structure.And, for some reason, no one wants to do that job! The MTA even erected a crane in 1967 or 68, just west of the Alabama Ave station, but it lasted only a few months. Nothing was ever done- or will be!!! |
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| (1183101) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 16:16:33 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Oct 26 14:02:41 2012. "Old Main" was from the eastern terminus at Van Sicklen Ave (note the difference in girders and pillars east of there and also excess steel work there) and down the Lex Ave el. |
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| (1183123) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 16:31:36 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 26 12:57:41 2012. 'zactly. |
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| (1183125) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 16:34:49 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 26 12:57:41 2012. It seems that there's some disagreemnt about which company built the structure over Fulton Street. Not knowing myself, I won't take a side in that. But I agree with your overall point that NIMBYs prevented a proper solution here. |
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| (1183127) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 16:37:36 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 16:34:49 2012. That was back in the day when J line ridership was skewed to be more from Queens. |
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| (1183136) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 26 16:48:55 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Oct 26 07:50:52 2012. The Culver Line along with the West End structure was dual contracts just like the Eastern Division rebuilds. |
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| (1183246) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 27 13:18:21 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 16:16:33 2012. I included the 1890 extension to Cypress Hills, in my description of the Old Main Line. Sorry about that! |
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| (1183254) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 14:18:00 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Thu Oct 25 19:27:15 2012. There's physical evidence both Woodhaven and Sutphin Blvd would have been express stations. I still believe there was probably an issue with building a flying express track over Fulton St and it was abandoned. |
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| (1183255) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 14:19:38 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 26 07:34:23 2012. It was. The original plans had 3 tracks, just like Liberty Ave. According to some sources it was built with two to quicken construction due to massive need for the line to open as soon as possible. |
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| (1183258) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 27 15:00:51 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Oct 27 13:18:21 2012. People forget Van Sicklen Ave as a terminus. It didn't last very long.Love to see a 1880's picture of it as such. |
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| (1183269) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 27 16:49:44 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 14:18:00 2012. For what it would have cost to build a flyover the entire length of the Fulton el structure, all the island platforms could have been replaced with side platforms and the center track placed between the other two. |
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| (1183271) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 27 16:55:27 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 14:18:00 2012. Sutphin is gone, but how does the evidence manifest itself. Are there photos that reveal potential express station conversion? |
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| (1183278) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 27 17:15:48 2012, in response to Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Thu Oct 25 15:53:42 2012. I don't think that the J needs express service at it's eastern end, but it would be nice if instead of having the J/Z skip-stop have the Z go peak direction express between Broadway Junction and Marcy Ave w/ the stop @ Myrtle Ave.Ultimately, the J should be fed up 6th Ave full time and sent down the Queens Blvd local to Continental. Let the M go to Broad St on Weekdays and Chambers St on weekends |
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| (1183287) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 18:28:29 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 27 16:55:27 2012. Note how structure widens just west of Sutphin in this picture. A less pronounced widening is seen just west of Woodhaven, on the Manhattan bound side:
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| (1183290) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 27 18:35:32 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 18:28:29 2012. Could that just be because the street got wider ? |
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| (1183291) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 27 18:36:35 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 27 17:15:48 2012. Ridgewood, Maspeth, and Fresh Pond people will riot in the streets. |
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| (1183307) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 20:23:06 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Sat Oct 27 18:35:32 2012. No. The Manhattan-bound trackway shifted outward on the other side, almost to the very edge of the pillar. The street does not widen in this area. Can't say for certain, but it appears to be accommodating a potential 2 island express station at Sutphin. This would also be a logical place to put one. |
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| (1183323) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 27 22:06:55 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 27 17:15:48 2012. nah..the J should be sent to S.Brooklyn..down 4th avenue to 95th st.the M is good where it is.. I think the need for improved Express service along Broadway is a great idea.. First,the Z needs to be expanded to the former KK/K line headways..with longer rush hour service hours..ABOUT 630AM-945AM and 330pm to 8pm.. Z trains would now become the Broadway/Jamaica Local,operating in a manor the QJ/KK lines did..with Z trains running from Crescent st or Jamaica to Broad st..and J trains operating to 95th st from Jamaica,with peak direction exp service between Crescent st and Essex st,stopping at ENY and MYRTLE.. |
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| (1183324) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 27 22:17:44 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 27 18:28:29 2012. SORRY..It only appears to be that way..the structure was built this way to better articulate the curve radius of the street.If you looked on the other side of the street which is right of this photo hidden from view..the bridge part of the trestle is flush with the steel bents holding up the structure,while its just the opposite on the foreground. When the EL ended at Sutphin Blvd..it was clear as day how the line was built..with the steel bents closer to the right side of the street. |
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| (1183325) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Oct 27 22:29:13 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 16:16:33 2012. outside platforms..removed..new island platform. |
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| (1183363) | |
Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Oct 28 07:41:18 2012, in response to Re: Does the J Train need a Third Track?, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 26 10:08:58 2012. I'm familiar with that portion of track at 111Th Street. Wasn't that for turns , way back?In what was the Downtown area of Jamaica, there was a center track from 168Th Street, to about Parsons Blvd. Storage I believe. |
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