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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jul 14 20:06:44 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 14 19:07:10 2012. "Why the union doesn't squawk is beyond me."In life, people wink at lots of things because if I throw the rule book at you, you can throw the rule book back at me, unless my ducks are all in a row, which isn't always easy. If you call the boss on his violation of work rules, he may not wink when you arrive ten minutes late one day. So people put up with lots of garbage on both ends because it keeps the peace. |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 02:07:36 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sat Jul 14 16:43:04 2012. Sorry folks the consist with 1656 has been changed I don't know which cars are coupled to it. Also I heard that as a few hours ago 1655 is a north motor minus its F/W cab. |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Jul 15 03:02:49 2012, in response to Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Fri Jul 13 01:58:55 2012. 1666 had its cab folded down, and was positioned as the fifth north motor today. However, 1670 still had its transverse cab. |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 04:27:26 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Jul 15 03:02:49 2012. *1721-1725* 1967 1651-1655* *cab NOT taken down yet. Also this set was on the road as well. *1781-1785* 1944 1666-1670* |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Jul 15 04:55:26 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 04:27:26 2012. Yes. For the time being, they're folding down the SOUTH end of some units, and then placing that unit on the north end of the train. Effectively, you get transverse cabs on both ends of the train.Another five singles were shipped out to 207th Street Yard Friday night to get linked. |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 17:39:02 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Jul 15 04:55:26 2012. 2136-2140 along with 1661-1665 at 207 st. Im wondering if the 1 line will have this done as well? The F/W cab removals? |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 15 19:22:02 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 14 18:57:07 2012. The R-62s and also the 68s as I mentioned in another post were ll supposed to be able to be convertible from corner to transverse cabs but the design on the 68s was changed to the cab and a half during manufacture. As for the cars being delivered as single units, it seems that the NYCTA new car engineering dept in the late 1970s/early 1980s was so disenchanted with any kind of unitization at the time due to the problems with drilling R-44s and 46s in yards that they overreacted and specified single cars. After Gunn and Kiley took over in 1983, attitudes changed and eventually, the new administration did some research and experimentation and eventually decided on unitization as a cost saving measure. |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 15 19:26:23 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Handbrake on Sat Jul 14 17:17:34 2012. The economy being what it is, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point during a future contract negotiation, the TWU is forced to accept the concept of OPTO on all lines regardless of train length. The MTA's management team will probably call in "experts" from other transit systems that have successfully used OPTO on long trains and sell the idea to the mediators and/or arbitrators. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jul 15 20:26:03 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 15 19:26:23 2012. This is a good point. Contracts are subject to renegotiation, especially when they expire. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 15 21:42:35 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jul 15 20:26:03 2012. Now if only both sides can agree.I'm still waiting! |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sun Jul 15 21:57:13 2012, in response to Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Fri Jul 13 01:58:55 2012. How exactly is an R62 cab (or even an R68 as I heard they were originally single units too) converted between half-width and full-width? I've always wanted to know how the procedure was done. |
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Posted by South FERRY on Mon Jul 16 01:55:19 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 17:39:02 2012. ::GASP::!!! |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jul 16 06:28:58 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Sun Jul 15 17:39:02 2012. No. In fact, it appears this won't be happening on the (7) either. At least not to the extent we previously thought. |
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Posted by merrick1 on Mon Jul 16 06:42:08 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jul 15 20:26:03 2012. Workers usually want a wage increase with each new contract. They employer wants something in exchange for a wage increase. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 07:00:38 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Railman718 on Fri Jul 13 08:41:42 2012. Yeah...thnaks :)My greatest railfan day ever was June 18, 1999. On that day, I rode the J to Jamiaca, the E back to Manhattan, and The Newark City Subway. I still have my paper transfer Metro Card to let me back into the subway at Essex Street- as due to construction, the JMZ was busstituted over the Willy B that summer. |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Jul 16 07:48:06 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by LRG5784 on Sun Jul 15 21:57:13 2012. For the R62s, the left side cab wall folds out after the two seats are removed.Each R68 car has a full-width cab on one end, and a corner cab at the other end. One cannot be converted to the other due to the tapered side walls. |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 07:57:05 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Jul 16 07:48:06 2012. Originally 68s were to be delivered with corner cabs at each end. This was changed at the factory. If you look at the full width end of a 68 at the floor line you can see the difference and where the change was made. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:16:20 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 07:57:05 2012. I had wondered about that.Now, I wonder if it is possible to change some of the R-68's to corner cabs at both ends, but leave some a full width, for the full width C/R's? To serve the riding public. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:19:24 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 07:57:05 2012. Is this the same for BOTH models of the R-68?Where the second type built with a design that could not be changed? |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 08:21:29 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:16:20 2012. 68s Maybe, but it would be a big headache. 68As not at all. |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 08:26:12 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:19:24 2012. 68As cannot be changed. Hence, the pocket doors on the full width cabs. Keep in mind that all 68s were supposed to be built by one builder but Westinghouse-Amrail lost the contract and Kawasaki built the 68As instead. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:41:49 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by merrick1 on Mon Jul 16 06:42:08 2012. NOW,NOW LETS GO AFTER THE 11 CAR TRAIN SETS FOR THE "E", AND "F" TRAINS, AND SHOW A 10% INCREASE IN CAPACITY! |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Jul 16 12:02:27 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R32_3672 on Fri Jul 13 02:16:32 2012. Wow more great videos a coming. Karl |
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Re: Railfan windows return to the 7 |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Jul 16 14:36:03 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by randyo on Sat Jul 14 16:49:35 2012. I wouldn’t be surprised if Corona’s R62A cars are assigned to the #4 instead of the #6 when the swap takes place. Consider this: According to Joe Korman’s site, the #4 and #7 are assigned almost exactly the same number of cars, 410 vs 409, but the #6 is assigned 460. This means that if Corona’s cars are transferred to Westchester yard, Westchester would have to maintain a mix of R62A and R142A cars. However if Corona’s cars are transferred to the 4, andJerome yard’s R142 and 142A’s transferred to Westchester, then Jerome, which already maintains 20 R62A cars for the 42 St shuttle, would be 100% R62A, while Westchester would maintain two much more similar R142 & 142A fleets, simplifying maintenance at both yards. Also, the 4 makes fewer stops than the 6, so the narrower door openings would be less of a problem. |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 16 15:30:26 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by VictorM on Mon Jul 16 14:36:03 2012. Interesting. If this does come to pass, the 4 would be the only A division line to host all 4 of the current A division types. We shall see. |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Jul 16 15:50:29 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by VictorM on Mon Jul 16 14:36:03 2012. That would be cool, would be a fun ride bouncing all over the place on a 62A from 125 to 86 s/b with that bumpy track in that area, same goes for the under water tube between Mantthan and Brooklyn.Also seeing 62As on the (4) would be a nice throwback to the 90s. Yea, the 4 used 62s back then but close enough lol. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:30:00 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:41:49 2012. The problem with that is that the stations on the Culver El can't hold 11 cars and would need to be lengthened using money the MTA doesn't have. |
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Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Mon Jul 16 17:35:13 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:30:00 2012. I should have labled this thread as Railfan windows will be GONE from the 7 line. smh. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:50:10 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 16 08:26:12 2012. The 68s were supposed to have convertible cabs at both ends similar but not identical to the R-62s. While the R-62s require the installation or removal of the corner seats and a reenforcing post by CED personnel, the R -68s as originally designed were to have seats that folded up and a panel that could be swung into position like the rear portion of a Lo-V cab door by a member of the train crew. Since the R-68s are curved sided unlike the R-62s, the configuration of the #1 end of the cars as originally designed was rather unique since the offside bulkhead when folded back would be straight and not have matched the rest of the car interior. From what I have seen of the contract drawings, the seats in that area of the car would have folded up against the front bulkhead of the car in order to allow the off side cab bulkhead to be swung into place. Both the R-62s and 68s were designed prior to the Gunn/Kiley MTA administration and when Gunn and Kiley took over, they had the R-68 design changed during manufacture to the current cab and a half configuration. From what I was told, the #2 half cabs on the R-68s were supposed to be set up to open backwards like the R-62s but RTO personnel insisted on having the cab doors open "normally." By the time the R-68As were being ordered, the cab and a half configuration was established so the MTA decided on an R-46 style sliding cab door rather than a swinging door although it returned to swinging cab doors on the NTTs. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 16 18:12:49 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 16 08:41:49 2012. There will be no 11 car trains on the E/F. |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jul 16 19:20:13 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jul 14 18:57:07 2012. When the cars were built, I doubt if it ever entered into the minds of any MTA/NYCT suit that one day the cabs would be converted into transverse ones.I think it did, or otherwise they wouldn't have built it with precisely that in mind. I had a long winded verbal explanation but I think this picture is worth all those words: From NYCSubway.org:  .This is essentially the same wall you see here:  I have seen cars with the small rectangular panel removed, it is the locking mechanism. Also, the ad panel obscures the giant hole that allows access to the window when it's in half-width mode, you can see this looking inside any 62/A cab. That wall is basically a door. You can see the hinges on all R62/As. The vertical pole it locks into can be installed at either end of any R62/62A where the metal panel with two holes is (look at the ceiling at the very top of the picture):  .Unless this is one hell of a coincidence, it looks like they designed them to be converted to transverse from the start. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 19:35:31 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jul 16 19:20:13 2012. That was exactly the way they were designed and the R-68s were initially designed somewhat the same way as I have described in another post on this topic. It was originally intended to have a window in the offside bulkhead and when the cabs were first configured as transverse, that was the way they were. At some point, it was decided to eliminate the window in the bulkhead and replace it with a blank stainless steel panel. On the Flushing cars that have had the cabs reconfigured to corner cabs, has the blank panel been replaced by the original window or is the window on the offside of the car blanked off? |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Mon Jul 16 20:30:15 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 19:35:31 2012. Contrast this image that Henry found:with this one:  (both are from nycsubway.org) From the first one it seems quite clear how the panel on the left wall could fold out to become part of the transverse cab, but I'm wondering how this all works if that wall has a window in it. |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Mon Jul 16 20:49:23 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Fri Jul 13 02:28:06 2012. Add to it, the stainless steel pain that covered the window has to be removed in order for the left side to be placed back behind the seats! |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jul 16 22:48:40 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Neil Feldman on Mon Jul 16 20:49:23 2012. No, they've been folding the wall in with the cover intact, effectively blocking the window. |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jul 16 22:55:05 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Southern BMT on Mon Jul 16 20:30:15 2012. The ad panel is just some sheet metal crudely bolted over the window pane... notice how it doesn't have the two tone shiny silver behind it... |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jul 16 23:01:16 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by Southern BMT on Mon Jul 16 20:30:15 2012. Another panel now goes over it. When transverse cabs were new, the large window hole was kept, but covered with a clear plexiglass window. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012, in response to Railfan windows return to the 7, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Fri Jul 13 01:58:55 2012. Looks like this thread was a bit premature.What's actually happening now is that certain five-car units are having their south-end transverse cabs folded down, and then these units are being designated as north-end (Flushing-side) units, thus providing free movement through most of the train, and also providing the Train Operator with a transverse cab on both ends. (A lone single is placed in-between the two units.) This has been done on a few sets due to the lack of single cars, as they're currently being rapidly united (married) at 207th Street Yard. At this time, I don't know if the returned singles-now-units are having transverse cabs opened up or not. If not, we may have some trains with railfan windows on one *or* both sides of the train for the time being. But it seems likely that they will get the transverse treatment at some point. In short, you're likely slowly losing your railfan windows from the Flushing Line, even before the R-188s hit service. So enjoy them while they last. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Thu Jul 19 08:13:53 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012. In short, you're likely slowly losing your railfan windows from the Flushing Line, even before the R-188s hit service. So enjoy them while they last.Bummer.... Oh well life goes on.. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 19 08:37:16 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012. Why do they gotta have full width cabs with no chance of OPTO ? |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 19 09:44:43 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012. LOL at these subchatters. Unbelievable. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Thu Jul 19 09:54:44 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012. Why is it so important to have free movement through the whole train, given that almost no other class of cars allows this?For most car classes, you can move freely only through the first or last five cars. And on the R68s, even if the car end doors were automatically unlocked in the event of an emergency, one wouldn't be able to get between more than two cars before running into a cab door. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 10:51:33 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Jul 19 05:29:11 2012. Stupid question - why is it neceaasry to have a full-width cab for the T/O? I can't think of any advantage that offers, and it would seem to limit flexibility when putting together trains. I could see an arguement for having a full-width cab for the C/R, but they're actually getting rid of that.subfan |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 19 11:30:07 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 10:51:33 2012. It's not necessarily necessary. But there are pros and cons. One of the pros is that the T/O has more room, either to actually use or just to feel good about. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 13:13:24 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 19 11:30:07 2012. OK, but it would seem that while the giving the T/O more room to operate is nice, it is being done at the expense of giving up operational flexibility in making up a train. Specifically, if all cabs are half-width, there's no issue as to which end ends up at the front of a consist and which ends up in the middle. If you're looking at having only one end with a full-width cab, and that cab is to be for the T/O, you need to always make sure that that end is at either the front or rear of the train. Why give up real utility for something that's just a "nice to have"?subfan |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 19 13:27:00 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 10:51:33 2012. So the TA does it ass-backwards. The C/R has to keep walking between cars while the T/O gets a palace while he sits still, and there is less standing room for customers. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Gold_12TH on Thu Jul 19 13:32:18 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 19 09:44:43 2012. Thank Subchat for ruining your life. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 19 13:33:32 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 13:13:24 2012. I would think transverse cabs are more important for conductors than train operators, since conductors would have to move between cars constantly, increasing the chance of an on-the-job injury. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 19 14:23:40 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by Southern BMT on Thu Jul 19 09:54:44 2012. When the end doors are electrically unlocked by the crew, the transverse cab doors also unlock. |
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Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 19 14:27:40 2012, in response to Re: Railfan windows to be removed from the 7, posted by subfan on Thu Jul 19 13:13:24 2012. Back when Hi-Vs ruled the Bway Express, a similar situation existed with the Gibbs cars since most of them had manual doors and had to be spotted at the ends of the trains and all had transverse cabs. Even with the deck roofers and certain Hedley motors with manual doors, those cars also had to be spotted at the ends of the trains. |
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