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LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012

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The Long Island Rail Road is planning the largest overhaul of Penn Station since the original Beaux Arts-style structure was demolished nearly a half-century ago.

But while LIRR officials try to create a terminal with some of the same appeal of the original Penn Station or the MTA 's other Manhattan railroad station, the majestic Grand Central Terminal, some commuters and transit officials are skeptical that the cramped and dingy facility under Madison Square Garden could ever be much more than what it is today.

"I figure whatever they do will be better than what is there now, but it ain't going to be no wonderful place," said Lorraine Diehl, author of "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station," who grew up near the facility. "We're never going to get it back."

The difference between Grand Central and Penn can be seen in the style of architecture, height of the ceilings and quality of commercial tenants. Grand Central boasts an Apple store, steak houses and a renowned oyster bar. Penn offers Kmart and fast food. Port Authority executive director Patrick Foye, a former MTA board member, has referred to the differences as "the cheeseburger divide."

Now the LIRR, Amtrak and New Jersey Transit are looking to bridge that divide through the Penn Station Vision project. In January, the three railroads, which all call Penn Station their busiest hub, hired Los Angeles-based consulting firm Aecom to develop plans for a revitalized West Side Terminal. Aecom is expected to deliver its report by the end of the year.

The railroads are expected to share the project costs, which have not been determined. As Penn's primary user, the LIRR is paying Aecom about half of the $1.1 million cost of the study, with NJ Transit and Amtrak splitting the other half.

Although constrained by Madison Square Garden's location on top of the station, and having to share the hub with two railroads and six subway lines, LIRR president Helena Williams said she still believes there is room for major change at Penn Station, through which about 500,000 commuters pass each weekday.

Thinking long-term

Williams said those changes will be phased in over several years, and even decades. She expects to include some improvements in the Metropolitan Transportation Authority 's next five-year capital plan, which begins in 2015.

The changes could include luring more upscale commercial tenants, improving lighting (including by letting in natural light if possible), adding new signage and getting rid of the main train departure board in the LIRR concourse to lessen crowding there.

Grander changes -- including opening up space by relocating administrative offices, knocking down walls, and finding a new use for Amtrak's waiting area when it moves to the adjacent Moynihan Station -- could take much longer to complete. But LIRR officials and their partners in the project said they are committed to seeing it through.

Commuters in mind

"We know the commuter experience can be and should be improved. . . . The idea is to create a new, modern experience for Penn Station," Williams said.

Jeff Gerlach, Amtrak's principal of capital program development and infrastructure and investment development for the Northeast Corridor, said the plan offers the three railroads "an opportunity for us to sort of step back and join hands and say, 'We have to make this better.' "

Still, Williams insists the goal is not to replicate the old Penn, which opened in 1910, or even the beloved Grand Central, which opened several blocks away in 1913. "You have to say, 'What have we got and what can we do with it?' And that's where we are right now."

What's there now is depressing, said Tara Turtell, 23, of Farmingdale . She has been commuting to and from Penn Station for about a year. "The last thing I want to do in Penn Station is kill time," said Turtell, who works in advertising sales for a television network. "I want to be in and out of there as fast as possible."

Common vision sought

Drew Galloway, associate vice president of infrastructure and investment development for Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, said that different visions and projects by the three railroads operating in Penn have resulted in the "polyglot mix of architecture" that exists today. He said the Penn Station Vision project marks the first time all the railroads came together with a singular purpose.

"Everybody has had a hand in stirring that pot a little bit, and part of the result, I think, is this almost haphazard look of development that doesn't create the volume or the architecture of scale that you'd like to see in a grand terminal," Galloway said. "It doesn't work well today. Anybody who takes a walk down there today at 5 in the evening will agree."

NJ Transit spokesman John Durso Jr. said his agency is confident that the "spirit of cooperation and collaboration" among the three railroads "will ultimately result in a modernized rail hub that will best serve the needs of our customers for decades to come."

Will LIRR get fair deal?

But MTA board member Mitchell Pally, of Stony Brook, is not convinced. He said the biggest obstacle in the way of a true transformation at Penn is the same one that gets in the LIRR's way all the time: Amtrak's ownership and control of the station.

"I'm not skeptical that . . . [Amtrak] wants change. What I'm concerned about is where it is on their priority list," Pally said. "To us, Penn Station is the one place where almost everybody who rides the Long Island Rail Road ends up. To Amtrak, Penn Station is one of many stations. It's never going to be their No. 1 priority."

Williams said she believes all parties involved realize the time is right for a new Penn, especially with a surge of development and planned transit projects on the West Side, including Moynihan Station and Amtrak's Gateway project to build two new Hudson River tunnels.

But, for now, to look at a beautiful Penn Station, Williams has to rely on the framed photo of the original facility hanging in her office.

"I look at it and say, 'Why don't I have that?' " she said.



PENN STATION HISTORY

1910: The original Penn Station opens for business. The first day for LIRR service to and from Penn is Sept. 8.

1963: Following the sale of the station's air rights, the original Penn Station is leveled so that a new sports arena and office complex could be built on top.

1968: Madison Square Garden opens on top of Penn Station.

1976: Amtrak assumes ownership and operation of Penn Station from Conrail.

1994: The LIRR completes a major renovation of its portion of Penn Station, including the creation of a new 34th Street entrance, widening walkways, raising the ceiling, and building the West End Concourse.

2012: The LIRR, New Jersey Transit and Amtrak join together to launch the Penn Station Vision plan, which they say will lead to the most significant overhaul of the station in half a century.

MAKEOVER PLANS

PROBLEM: Dark, cramped space with little natural light

SOLUTION: Declutter it. Organizers expect to be able to free up some space by relocating administrative offices, crew quarters and police facilities, pushing back businesses, knocking down walls and opening ceilings to create two-level height areas. An early goal is to increase lighting, including by letting in natural light, if possible.

PROBLEM: Hard to get around

SOLUTION: Give them a sign. New signs, including electronic ones, will be installed throughout the station to help guide customers and disperse large crowds that form around centralized train departure boards. Wider walkways and new escalators, stairs and elevators could help move people to and from train platforms.

PROBLEM: Crowded hub

SOLUTION: Reclaim Amtrak space. With Amtrak planning to move its customer waiting area and administrative offices to Moynihan Station at the adjacent Farley Post Office building, Amtrak's existing circular waiting and ticket area becomes new space to be used.

PROBLEM: Nothing to see but chain stores

SOLUTION: Upgrade retail. Working its commercial real estate leasor, Vornado Realty Trust , Penn's railroads hope to lure in upscale shops and restaurants, and reorganize available space for business.

PROBLEM: Hodge-podge architecture

SOLUTION: Create one look. With LIRR, NJT and Amtrak working together, Penn could have a seamless architectural style.

---newsday

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(1164724)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Jul 4 04:25:01 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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Just pissing away money. Moynihan station is never going to happen. People should just get over it.

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(1164736)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 4 07:34:51 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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So what's wrong with K-mart and fast food? The "upscale" stores at Grand Central may look nice, but they are for the most part too expensive for most people passing through to buy much at. We don't need to duplicate that at NYP.

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(1164746)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jul 4 09:26:11 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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Look back at the original Penn Station (before MSG) and compare it with we have now. Now there is progress created by politicians. A couple of million for the study and then years of inconvenience during "renovation" and in the end, you get something that is worse than before and something that couldn't be afforded in the first place.

It seems that the current MTA could sell drugs and lose money.

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(1164754)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jul 4 10:00:51 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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getting rid of the main train departure board in the LIRR concourse to lessen crowding there

Strongly disagree... NJT's east side concourse doesn't have a main departure board, it's still crowded.

If they really want to reduce crowding, make another large area with access to most of the tracks and put a departure board there...

Upgrade retail. Working its commercial real estate leasor, Vornado Realty Trust , Penn's railroads hope to lure in upscale shops and restaurants, and reorganize available space for business.

Penn is not a tourist destination, upscale retail will fail miserably. The myriad of decent pizza places, newsstands and yes even the K-Mart are all far better uses of the space.

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(1164791)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 4 11:16:12 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jul 4 10:00:51 2012.

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That old taxi pull-up in the middle, which is now a police area ought to be rebuilt into something useful for passengers.

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(1164792)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 4 11:16:12 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 4 07:34:51 2012.

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It's not fast food. It's good food served quickly.

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(1164797)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 4 11:20:59 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 4 11:16:12 2012.

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Still too much $$$
We dont have to go back to Chock Full of Shit or Nausea-icks, but there has to be a happy mnedium.

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(1164861)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 4 14:25:00 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jul 4 09:26:11 2012.

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As regards Penn Station, what was done (MSG) was NOT progress. The ONE good thing that happened was Grand Central Station was NOT destroyed and the preservation of historic building and property began

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(1164871)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by chud1 on Wed Jul 4 15:26:27 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 4 14:25:00 2012.

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its grand central terminal.
chud1

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(1164879)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jul 4 16:35:30 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jul 4 09:26:11 2012.

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It seems that the current MTA could sell drugs and lose money.

Suits a city that ran OTB and lost money!

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(1164890)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Jul 4 17:43:30 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jul 4 16:35:30 2012.

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MTA is a state agency.

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(1164901)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 4 18:40:53 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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step one, demolish the3 MSG and all the other junk.
step two, get the original drawings and restore the grand palace. New York deserves no less.

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(1164921)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 4 19:39:03 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 4 18:40:53 2012.

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Amen!! Now get the money to bring Pennsylvania Station back, probably a couple of billions. :(

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(1164932)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jul 4 20:31:25 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 4 18:40:53 2012.

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step two, get the original drawings and restore the grand palace.

Let it die old man. If we're building something, it's going to be a testament to modern architecture, not some forsaken pastiche of revival architecture from "La Belle Époque". The French design modern stations for the TGV, and Berlin Hauptbahnof isn't some third rate imitation of the old station, but hands down, one of the best looking train station in the world. I am not interested in spending state money in pandering to the memories of some Baby Boomers, but I have no qualms in pushing the architecture further into the future...

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(1164934)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 4 20:41:07 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 4 18:40:53 2012.

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A couple of office buildings would have to go too, but fine, and forget this Farley Post Office nonsense.

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(1164955)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by merrick1 on Wed Jul 4 22:10:35 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 4 19:39:03 2012.

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Madison Square Garden is spending $1 Billion on renovations. So figure more than $1 Billion just to buy out MSG.

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(1164961)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jul 4 22:51:07 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jul 4 16:35:30 2012.

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Thank David Dinkins and Hazel Dukes. The former president of the NY chapter of the NAACP ran OTB into the ground while she stole from employees.








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(1165015)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 5 08:33:54 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Jul 4 04:25:01 2012.

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$1.1M to just S-T-U-D-Y the renaovations ... going to be Billions & Billions before they are through :-(

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(1165016)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 5 08:35:25 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 4 11:16:12 2012.

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When I took classes at 347 Madison I looked forward to lunching at Grand Central.

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(1165017)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 5 08:38:18 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 5 08:33:54 2012.

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And?

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(1165018)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jul 5 08:39:03 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 5 08:35:25 2012.

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Who wouldn't?

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(1165109)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Jul 5 22:00:09 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by merrick1 on Wed Jul 4 22:10:35 2012.

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That's 3 Billion just to begin bringing back Penn Station. OUCH!!!

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(1165125)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Jul 6 00:14:20 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Jul 5 22:00:09 2012.

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Its not going to be easy.

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(1165264)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jul 6 15:32:00 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jul 4 20:31:25 2012.

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Exactly:

There is nothing that says a beautiful station can't be modern.

As for what happened to the old one, there was little that could be done, and without MSG and the office buildings that came with the re-do, that neighborhood would have been much more dangerous, especially at night in those days.

If anything, the pics I do see of the old Penn Station reflect an area that was far more deserted than the current one ever is, even late at night.

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(1165265)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 15:42:02 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jul 4 20:31:25 2012.

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I am not interested in spending state money in pandering to the memories of some Baby Boomers, but I have no qualms in pushing the architecture further into the future...



It depends on the location. I am not opposed to the future of architectural design; however I am opposed when it significantly destroys a specific area. Eastern Parkway closest to GAP has one of the most grotesque, hideous and disgusting buildings ever to tarnish such a beautiful parkway, a "modern" building directly across from the Central branch of the Brooklyn Public Library with no character and no soul. This building does not blend in with the rest of the pre-war buildings, imagine constructing a building like this in Tudor City?


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(1165273)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jul 6 16:08:56 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 15:42:02 2012.

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There is a 1960s-era high rise in Tudor City that fits with the rest of that area just fine, but your point is well taken.

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(1165275)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 16:13:16 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 15:42:02 2012.

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As I said, I am opposed to a building where it clearly destroys an area. You be the judge of this building on Eastern Parkway. (Image courtesy of brooklynnewyorkrocks.blogspot.com)



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(1165328)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Italianstallion on Fri Jul 6 23:06:41 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jul 4 09:26:11 2012.

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It was capitalists, not politicians, who demolished the old Penn Station.

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(1165330)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 6 23:20:05 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 16:13:16 2012.

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I love that building at Grand Army Plaza.

Most of the best parts of the city are a hodgepodge of buildings built in different eras.

Neither Penn Station nor Grand Central fit into their neighborhoods when built, and both required massive demolitions to be built.


Disclaimer, I live in a 4 year old building with 100 year old buildings on either side.

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(1165331)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 6 23:21:56 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 4 07:34:51 2012.

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When it comes to buying stuff to eat and drink while waiting for a train, I much prefer Penn to GCT.

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(1165338)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 6 23:41:51 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Italianstallion on Fri Jul 6 23:06:41 2012.

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Thank you.

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(1165340)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Jul 6 23:48:44 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 6 23:21:56 2012.

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Agreed. As far as places to eat, In Penn Station, I've eaten at KFC, Pizza Hut, Aunite Anne's, and Krispy Kreme.

As far as what's in GCT, there's Zaro's and Junior's, but that's it, and each of those was a one-time thing. Even the forthcoming Shake Shack won't convince me to eat there. However, the products at Magnolia Bakery are tempting...

The K-mart in Penn is nice too for drinks. A vending machine sells 12-ounce cans of soda for 75¢ each. The closest thing you can get in GCT for that price is about three-eighths of a 20-ounce bottle at the various Hudson News stands.

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(1165374)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sat Jul 7 08:30:38 2012, in response to LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Jul 4 02:54:35 2012.

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I think the one thing that separates GCT from Penn, is that GCT is a pure commuter station, where Penn, of course, has Amtrak in it. I bet Penn handles three times the foot traffic that GCT does in a course of a day. And the people riding Amtrak to Washington...Albany and beyond needs portable food, where the typical GCT commuter probably has a ride of less than an hour - and that bottle of Coke or water and a bag of chips from Hudson News works for them.

And lets not start getting into the socioeconomic differences between your MetroNorth/NH commuter, and those using LIRR/NJT...

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(1165404)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Jul 7 10:49:39 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by LA Scott on Fri Jul 6 23:21:56 2012.

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If it weren't for the fact that greasy Reesey is the franchisee for 80% of NYPs eateries I would agree with you. Only McD's, Starbucks, AuBon pain, Jambas Juice and Hot and Crusty are not part of greasy reesey.

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(1165740)

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Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover

Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Jul 9 13:10:54 2012, in response to Re: LIRR plans major Penn Station makeover, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jul 6 16:13:16 2012.

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It's certainly a new building, but that's more of a sign of how many of those neighborhoods are improving after years of problems in many cases.

There are others where new construction does change things, and not always for the better, but what happened with the old Penn Station to me isn't the case because as far as I'm concerned, it prevented what could have become in the 1970's and '80s a FAR bigger problem than the one it had thanks to crime becoming what it would become for example.

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