Home  Maps  About

Home > SubChat

[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]

[1 2]

 

Page 1 of 2

Next Page >  

(1156805)

view threaded

Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012

71 years ago...May 15, 1941, the NYC Board of Transportation began service on the new Dyre Avenue Line, then a shuttle (under IND divsion management) between Dyre Avenue and E 180th St. From there passengers walked through the old NY W &B station to the IRT and a free transfer to the Lexington Avenue subway trains. The new line's r.o.w. was of course, the 1912-built New York Westchester and Boston RR, which had closed in 1937 due to low ridership.

Post a New Response

(1156806)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue May 15 16:24:14 2012, in response to Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012.

Thanks for the info :) Interesting piece of history here.

Post a New Response

(1156835)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 20:54:24 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by streetcarman1 on Tue May 15 16:24:14 2012.

Thanks for the reminder, Andy. Years ago, this and other date reminders (like tunnelrat's 3Ave el closing one on May 12th) would have generated a decent thread. Sadly, most of the attention- and foam- today are focused on 76th Street and/or the Rockaway Beach connector. History has taken a back seat for things that will never be explored or built!

Post a New Response

(G00GLE)

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary


(1156836)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Michael549 on Tue May 15 21:07:07 2012, in response to Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012.

At a time when the basic #5 route ruled the White Plains Avenue elevated train line.

Mike



Post a New Response

(1156839)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Michael549 on Tue May 15 21:19:14 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Michael549 on Tue May 15 21:07:07 2012.

I meant White Plains Road.

Mike

Post a New Response

(1156857)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue May 15 23:29:54 2012, in response to Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012.

It was good that the city portion of the NYW & B was taken over by the city and survives today as the #5 train. But unfortunate that the rest of the line wasn't and didn't survive.

Post a New Response

(1156876)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by chud1 on Wed May 16 04:35:50 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 20:54:24 2012.

Strength and Honor to da Dyre Ave lne.
chud1

Post a New Response

(1156878)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed May 16 04:57:28 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 20:54:24 2012.

I would comment but I'm waiting for a thread about the subway expansion over the Verrazano Bridge. ;)

Post a New Response

(1156880)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by SLRT on Wed May 16 05:40:20 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue May 15 23:29:54 2012.

A lot of the line paralleled the New Haven and "survives" as I-95.

Post a New Response

(1156882)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 16 07:09:53 2012, in response to Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012.

And May 29 will be the anniversary of the date the whole line first opened in 1912, as the New York Westchester & Boston.

As for the shuttle operation, a recent mention on Forgotten New York said that paper transfers to the IRT were used. Is this true? It seems like the turnstiles could simply have been placed where the stairs to the shuttle (former NYW&B) platforms would have been within fare control. Anyone know for sure?

Post a New Response

(1156883)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed May 16 07:23:42 2012, in response to Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Tue May 15 16:22:18 2012.

Neat!! Thanks for reminding us!

Post a New Response

(1156895)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by andy on Wed May 16 09:26:44 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 16 07:09:53 2012.

Don't believe that paper transfers were used at E 180th because the IRT and NYWB stations were already connected and adjacent to each other. What was unusual about the Dyre Line was that before thru service started in 1957 it was closed daily from 1 AM till 5:30 AM. After 9 PM, for many years, fares were collected on the train by a conductor with a bus type fare box. Since the night time shuttle trains were generally two cars, it was not difficult to make passengers enter at only one door (really only an issue on southbound trains).

Post a New Response

(1156900)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed May 16 11:09:30 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed May 16 04:57:28 2012.

"subway expansion over the Verrazano Bridge. ;)"

That might have been a reality had it not been for Mr. Robert Moses.

I wonder if there ever was a thread on how Bob Moses stifeled, for lack of a better word, the growth of mass transit in NYC??

Post a New Response

(1156913)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:23:57 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by SLRT on Wed May 16 05:40:20 2012.

The line should have been kept into Mount Vernon, much like the Getty Sqare branch of the NYC. Even though they are technically outside city limits, the areas are still close enough for viable subway service.

Post a New Response

(1156918)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed May 16 14:27:59 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 15 20:54:24 2012.

Didn't the 3rd Ave EL have a stop at 76th Street? :)

--Mark

Post a New Response

(1156925)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:53:19 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed May 16 11:09:30 2012.

There weren't specific threads AFAIK, but many posters, myself included, have made references to it in many threads about the lack of further expansion of the NYCTS.

Post a New Response

(1156926)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:57:10 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:23:57 2012.

When the B of T took over the line in 1940, service was limited to service within the city and I suspect that the same restriction applied to the NYCTA. Once the subways fell under the MTA umbrella, however , such expansion would have theoretically been possible although since much of the NYW&B ROW had been destroyed as far as rail use is concerned significant service outside the city is probably no longer possible.

Post a New Response

(1156927)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:59:32 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by andy on Wed May 16 09:26:44 2012.

I rode the Dyre on a 2 car train of deck roof Hi-Vs in midday before thru service was started and the fares were collected on the trains at all times back then.

Post a New Response

(1156933)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:37:20 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed May 16 14:27:59 2012.

Unfortunately, it did!

Post a New Response

(1156934)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:40:29 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed May 16 04:57:28 2012.

Sorry, but there's no room here for any topics other than 76th Street and/or the Rockaway Beach connection!

Post a New Response

(1156935)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:43:09 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:59:32 2012.

I have seen photos of IRT gate cars that they used, with a 1965 date on them.

Post a New Response

(1156936)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:43:11 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:59:32 2012.

I have seen photos of IRT gate cars that they used, with a 1965 date on them.

Post a New Response

(1156937)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:48:12 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:43:09 2012.

That's 1956, not 1965. When were the gates last used on Dyre?


Post a New Response

(1156942)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 16:26:54 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:57:10 2012.

A sad, lost opportunity. The purchase price of the ROW north of Dyre was a literal steel, perhaps city should have bought it just to retain the ability to extend north of the Bronx in the future. If that had not worked out, they could have sold the ROW at a later date to private interests for a tidy profit.

Just about everything involved with the NYW&B is sad.

Post a New Response

(1156945)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by rbseabeach on Wed May 16 16:35:37 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 16:26:54 2012.

Would there have been room for another station north or west of Dyre that could have been built to serve the North Bronx community before the Westchester border

Post a New Response

(1156949)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 16:43:46 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by rbseabeach on Wed May 16 16:35:37 2012.

Not really. The next stop was Kingsbridge Road, just across the border.

Post a New Response

(1156952)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 16:57:24 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 16:26:54 2012.

The problem was that the legislation at the time did not allow it.

Post a New Response

(1156954)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 16:59:05 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:48:12 2012.

That would probably be abut the last time the gates were used on Dyre assuming that the photo was accurately dated. When I rode the Hi-Vs there, it was around 1956 or 1957.

Post a New Response

(1156990)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by G1Ravage on Thu May 17 00:06:11 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 16:43:46 2012.

Whenever I take an empty (5) train north of Dyre Avenue to lay-up on the tail tracks, I try to imagine what once was. From what I'm told, when you're at the very end of the tracks, you can see some remnants of the Kingsbridge Road station in the distance.

Post a New Response

(1157063)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 17 14:06:32 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:43:11 2012.

Sounds way too late for a gate car to still be in service. Thru IRT trains began running in 1957.

Post a New Response

(1157064)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 17 14:10:30 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by G1Ravage on Thu May 17 00:06:11 2012.

Once you get north of Kingsbridge Road, the ROW has been utterly obliterated. What makes the NYW&B abandonment different from most others was that it was actively and deliberately destroyed (to avoid having a hefty potential 1946 bond payment). Other railroads are simply left to rot, this one was systematically destroyed.

Again, one of the sadder RR stories out there.

Post a New Response

(1157108)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 17 22:22:02 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed May 16 11:09:30 2012.

They were never going to put subway tracks on the Verrazano, Moses or no Moses. Moses' power was on the wane anyway by 1960.

Post a New Response

(1157120)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 18 00:34:36 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 17 22:22:02 2012.

well "they" were morons. Staten Island deserves rail connection to the other boroughs.

Post a New Response

(1157133)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:07:42 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 18 00:34:36 2012.

As a Staten islander, I absolutely agree. In my fantasy-land, a B-Division tunnel is dug from St. George to Broad Street, the SAS is completed all the way downtown, using the abndoned half of the Nassau Street line, and it becomes possible to ride one train from Tottenville to 125th/2nd Ave.

But more practically, what about building some kind of connection from the AK Lift Bridge to NJ Transit, a Park and Ride lot on the Staten Island side, and enabling commuter railroad service to Penn Station? Maybe extend the line east to Port Richmond Avenue?

Post a New Response

(1157134)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:09:55 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:23:57 2012.

Totally Agreed!!! I lived in Yonkers for a few years (with wife #1). I remember thinking how useful subway service into that City's center would have been.

On ths subject, I bought a book about old Yonkers jsut to get a photo of the very long-, El-like trestle that brought the line from School Street into Getty Sq.

Post a New Response

(1157135)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:11:29 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 17 14:10:30 2012.

Also, any available steel was taken during WW2 for the war effort.

Post a New Response

(1157191)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by tunnelrat on Fri May 18 10:35:19 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 16 15:43:11 2012.

gate cars were retired in the middle 1950`s.I delivered supplies to E180st.starting in 1964&there were no gate cars running there,or anywhere else.

Post a New Response

(1157206)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 18 12:57:37 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:07:42 2012.

okay to all of that. I believe the Verrazano can be used--I don't care how many lanes of interstate smog are taken over. vOn the Bay Ridge side, it will be more difficult, but I believe doable.

Connecting to HBLR over the Bayonne which IINM is scheduled to be rebuilt, should go forward.

Post a New Response

(1157209)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:13:44 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 18 00:34:36 2012.

I agree, but not on the longest suspension bridge in the world (at the time).

Post a New Response

(1157211)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:16:10 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:11:29 2012.

If you go north of Pelham, there are some traces of the White Plains branch. But between the Bronx border and there, nada.

Post a New Response

(1157212)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:19:14 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 16:57:24 2012.

Thanks to LaGuardia. There was a proposal to get Albany to subsidize the White Plains-Harlem River part of the line, but LaGuardia used all his powers to kill it so he could get the Bronx section for the subway system.

Post a New Response

(1157216)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 18 13:34:11 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:13:44 2012.

and why not? strong enough for semi's w/higher axle loadings than NTT cars.

Post a New Response

(1157218)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 14:08:26 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:16:10 2012.

Yes, I've seen the concrete remanents in North Mount Vernon, behind the condo complex. Is there any steel left laying around? I would have thought that WW2 scrap drives would have found almost all of it, but you never know.

Post a New Response

(1157225)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Fri May 18 14:50:30 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 13:19:14 2012.

AFAIK, the specific legislation prohibiting expansion outside the city had nothing to do with LaGuardia, but was merely the way the legislation that allowed city takeover of the transit system was drafted. That was the same reason that in the early years of the city operation of the Dyre Line, it was part of the IND even though it used IRT el cars and Hagstrom maps showed it as an IRT line. At the time, all new (and the Dyre line for legal purposes was a "new" line) rapid transit lines had to be IND lines. After the NYCTA replaced the B of T in 1953, certain aspects of the administration of the NYCTS changed and the Dyre Line was able to be made a part of the IRT Division. That's also the reason that the tracks on the Dyre Line were numbered using the BMT/IND scheme instead of the IRT scheme.

Post a New Response

(1157231)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 18 15:58:54 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 18 07:07:42 2012.

Build a new subway tunnel under Ft Hamilton Parkway, as originally planned but have it run from Ft Hamilton Pkwy under 59th street, 2nd Ave and 67th street to the Narrows. Run it express from Bergen/Smith to 7th Ave and have just 2 other Brooklyn stops at New Utrecht Ave/45th St and 59 St/4 Ave. You could even convert the old mezzanine at 44th/New Utrecht for an el/subway escalator transfer. Plus, a station under 59th St/4th Ave would access the "N" express or the "R" local.

Post a New Response

(1157233)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by tunnelrat on Fri May 18 16:14:32 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Fri May 18 14:50:30 2012.

Laguardia went to albany to campaign against any effort on using govt. funding to save the line.

Post a New Response

(1157235)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by randyo on Fri May 18 16:40:54 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by tunnelrat on Fri May 18 16:14:32 2012.

Then how was the takeover accomplished?

Post a New Response

(1157237)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 18 17:21:39 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Fri May 18 16:40:54 2012.

I think randyo meant that LaGuardia went to Albany to make sure that there was no state fundung for the NYW&B.

Post a New Response

(1157238)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by tunnelrat on Fri May 18 17:23:34 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 18 17:21:39 2012.

thats right.

Post a New Response

(1157242)

view threaded

Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri May 18 17:47:54 2012, in response to Re: Dyre Avenue IRT anniversary, posted by randyo on Fri May 18 14:50:30 2012.

No, it was LaGuardia himself thwarting a plan by Westchester officials to get the state to subsidize the rail service.

Post a New Response

[1 2]

 

Page 1 of 2

Next Page >  


[ Return to the Message Index ]