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Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 7 10:10:54 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 07:25:50 2012.

Forgot about that!!

They would have to somehow use Chambers as the terminal, perhaps having the trains come in from/go to Canal Street for storage in the daytime (isn't the "local" track on the eastbound side at Canal Street still connected to the tracks for emergencies?) if not use the tracks that cut off just before the Manny B.

That could be done with the "Brown D" from Chambers-Coney Island via 4th Avenue and West End, with some trains stored at CI overnights and weekends for AM rush.

This also could be solved by re-connecting the Brooklyn bound track of the Manny B on the South End to the Nassau Line, which would allow for a Nassau Loop line that could run rush hours, using the tunnel to Manhattan (Manhattan bound only stopping in Brooklyn at Metrotech and Court Street) and then stopping only on the uptown track at Broad, Fulton and Chambers before returning to Brooklyn via the Manny B, with a single terminal used for such a line (9th Avenue, Bay Parkway or CI) since it would be a loop.

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(1149335)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 10:30:08 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:49:09 2012.

I agree if this is to happen it appears temporary due to costruction.

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(1149336)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 10:36:12 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by merrick1 on Sat Apr 7 07:27:10 2012.

So then people that got on a J because they were headed for a J station all of a sudden get told its a Z?

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(G00GLE)

Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av


(1149338)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 7 10:41:19 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 10:03:49 2012.

And the G needs to be kept at Church, that's for sure.

The G going to Church gives Park Slope residents who have to switch to the 8th Avenue line anyway the option of taking that to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to get the A/C as opposed to only the F to Jay Street.

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(1149339)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Apr 7 10:45:30 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 10:36:12 2012.

How many through riders would there be between Brooklyn and Queens?

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(1149340)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sat Apr 7 10:49:08 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:34:31 2012.


"Having the Z or J at the mercy of whatever problems happen south of the Nassau line will destroy a very well run skip stop service. I can picture 3 or 4 J's in a row because a Z is stuck somewhere in South Brooklyn."

NYCT has invested heavily into their VHF (And UHF) radio network to permit,, for example, the RCC J line dispatcher to instruct selected northbound J's to announce and make all stops to Jamaica Center. The FM radio is RCC's tactical tool at resolving a line conditions, but assumes that RCC operators are not asleep at their console.

I don't know how many Z's are run during the rush hour. If the TA plans on sending five trains south to Brooklyn, then all remaining Z line intervals can turn at Broad Street.

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(1149342)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sat Apr 7 10:55:16 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by J trainloco on Fri Apr 6 18:57:02 2012.

A rider who's destination is on lower Broadway will make better time by changing at Atlantic for the IRT as opposed to waiting for an R train connection. I generally avoid the R like the plague.

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(1149351)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bounad Hanhic on Sat Apr 7 11:33:57 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 7 07:22:24 2012.

If they were pressuring the MTA to restore service or get new service, the politicians would do so publicly and get as much press attention as possible. Especially in an election year and especially when they have to get people to sign petitions to put them on the ballot (primary and general elections). Yes, even incumbents have to file petitions to get on the ballot.

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(1149354)

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Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 11:54:38 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 7 10:10:54 2012.

How many trains can you stuff in those old Manny B lead tracks ?

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(1149355)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:07:01 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by HANDBRAKE on Sat Apr 7 10:49:08 2012.

Amazing, the current on-line schedule of them dated 12/4/11 is almost identical to my printout of it of Sept 2002 issuance.

Z's arrive Broad Street every 9 to 12 minutes from 8:08am to 9:00, and there are 6 of them. 5 of 6 northbound J's die at Eastern Pkwy, so I can only assume they are Z's, and one of those Z's stays a J.

Knowing that, how would you run form 9th Avenue ?

If a thru service:
Extend the Z's to 9th Avenue, and originate as many from 9th Avenue to neatly replace them for their northbound trip to Eastern Pkwy or Jamaica. Overnite and weekends, where do you lay them up ? 36th Street yard ? C.I.Y. ?

If a Brown W, same timetable as above but stuff into sidings north of Chambers or Canal Street.

PM rush, repeat everything in reverse.

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(1149356)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:08:47 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bounad Hanhic on Sat Apr 7 11:33:57 2012.

Of all the service to restore, where is this on the totem pole ?

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(1149357)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:10:57 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 09:00:44 2012.

We are forgetting something else: a 9th Av extension requires more equipment, and if they do a R32/$46 swap again, that will "borrow" 2 trainsets from Jamaica and 10 R42's from ENY. So where's even more equipment ?

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(1149358)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:11:34 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Apr 7 10:41:19 2012.

BMT connection also important at 4th Av.

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(1149359)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:20:28 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Apr 7 09:23:20 2012.

What was wrong with them ?

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(1149362)

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That it great news Randy, rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:33:25 2012, in response to Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 6 14:18:09 2012.



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(1149363)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:35:11 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Apr 6 15:06:33 2012.

Instead of afternoon put-ins of Z's at ENY, they can put them in from CI or 36th St instead. That would still be a stretch. I do not think it can be reliably done unless ENY's fleet gets larger.

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(1149364)

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Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue.

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 7 12:36:46 2012, in response to That it great news Randy, rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:33:25 2012.

Aw, who you be kiddin'. This is the best news anybrony's ever hoid of in a long time.



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(1149365)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:37:38 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 18:10:11 2012.

Demand between Manhattan and Dekalb is higher. That's where the extra Nassau St service would be needed.

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(1149367)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:44:13 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 6 17:24:27 2012.

Through running would not be a problem, given that half of the J/Z line would begin at Broad St. If there are significant delays in trains coming from south Brooklyn, the train starting at Broad St. can cover all local stops. There was never this insurance policy when the M got fouled up south of Broad St and it's riders had no alternatives.

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(1149370)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:49:32 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 06:39:50 2012.

There would be wasteful, duplicative service on Nassau St under this plan, and trains would have to be moved to/from ENY yard, as they cannot be secured on the tracks north of Chambers (homeless still infest the area). Extending the Z south to 9th Ave would be the simplest and cheapest way to provide the service, and it would require few additional trainsets. Today Z trains in the AM run in service from Broad to Broadway Junction and in the PM they run in service from BJ to Broad St before turning around to provide the peak service. If they simply allow these trains to run to 9th Ave in the AM and start there in the PM, you'd probably not need ANY additional trainsets at all.

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(1149371)

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Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:51:32 2012, in response to Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue., posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 7 12:36:46 2012.

I still remain skeptical.

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(1149372)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:53:16 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 02:51:41 2012.

No, it means we have confirmation!

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(1149388)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:32:06 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:10:57 2012.

I didn't forget about the need for more equipment.

I mentioned it in my post.

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(1149389)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:37:56 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:20:28 2012.

Logic, and knowing how NYCT works, tells me that these were poor performers, just like how older buses are retired, like the 1996 RTS'.

However, that decision was made before the SMS program was announced and budgeted.

So just maybe a pair or 2 will be SMS'ed.

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(1149390)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:39:21 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Eric B on Sat Apr 7 09:46:21 2012.

Insane.

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(1149391)

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Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue.

Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 14:41:48 2012, in response to Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:51:32 2012.

Actually, so do I. That's why I described my source as "pseudo reliable."

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(1149392)

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Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:42:32 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 11:54:38 2012.

IIRC: 3/8 car trains on each rat infested track.

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(1149393)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 14:43:58 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:49:32 2012.

Agreed, except that those layups and putins would be traveling against the peak flow of rush hour traffic.

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(1149394)

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Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue.

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 7 14:46:23 2012, in response to Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue., posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 14:41:48 2012.

"Pseudoreliable" means that the reliability thereof is always fake (i.e. 100% unreliable).

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(1149395)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:51:00 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:49:32 2012.

In order to serve south Brooklyn riders, they would need J or Z trains from 9th Ave. in the AM rush and to 9th Ave. in the PM rush.

Most of these would do no good for current J/Z riders.

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(1149396)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:52:01 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:53:16 2012.

So Chippers' statement ends the discussion.

It's a done deal!

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(1149397)

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Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue.

Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 14:54:38 2012, in response to Re: Randyo, that is great news, rush hour J to 9th Avenue., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:51:32 2012.

Actually, so do I. That's why I described my source as "pseudo reliable."

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(1149410)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 15:42:32 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:51:00 2012.

Hmmm, it would still require few additional trainsets. Eliminating the put-ins from ENY in the PM and the runs to BJ in the AM would still require only 5-6 additional trainsets.

Of course, I am still skeptical.

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(1149416)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 7 16:37:13 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:49:09 2012.

Under what scenario would losing a branch in south Brooklyn result in MTA adding an extra service?

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(1149417)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Apr 7 16:47:41 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:08:47 2012.

Has ti be near zero.

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(1149422)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 7 16:56:02 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bounad Hanhic on Sat Apr 7 11:33:57 2012.

hmmm...if that was so..then where was the petition to revive the former TT WEST END LOCAL?
Nobody heard of it,yet the "new M" diversion to the West End line during the Manny B closures was that very reinstatement.

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(1149423)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 7 16:58:44 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 09:00:44 2012.

and someone from this board told me that there wasnt any rail car shortage...wonder who that was..?

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(1149424)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 7 17:00:00 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 12:11:34 2012.

exactly..so the cars need to be found..[R32 spares?]

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(1149426)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by grand concourse on Sat Apr 7 17:02:42 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 07:49:09 2012.

That makes sense, about it being a temporary thing.

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(1149427)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 17:04:06 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 7 16:58:44 2012.

There would be a rail car shortage if the J or Z was extended to 9th Ave. in the rush.

Currently, there are just enough cars + spares for service. I have been told that throughout the B division, the R160 spare factor is quite low.

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(1149428)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 7 17:06:47 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 17:04:06 2012.

"I have been told that throughout the B division, the R160 spare factor is quite low."

Presumably, those are the newest and most reliable cars, so they should have a low spare factor.

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(1149429)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 17:07:08 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Edwards! on Sat Apr 7 17:00:00 2012.

Hopefully SMS would reduce the R32 spare factor.

The question is would this result in the retirement of the R42's?

Only the highest level managers of NYCT can answer that, and I doubt if that's a priority issue right now.

Not until the SMS project is completed and they see what the MDBF is before and after.

I'm skeptical.

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(1149431)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 7 17:09:24 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 02:51:41 2012.

Every weather forecast is eventually right if one removes the date and the time from it.

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(1149448)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 18:26:30 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 17:07:08 2012.

Haven't heard any progress reports on the SMS.

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 18:34:03 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Apr 7 14:37:56 2012.

Or spare parts source for SMS, or to keep R42's going.

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(1149454)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 18:41:02 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 7 17:09:24 2012.

That's true. Even a non working clock is right twice a day!

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(1149458)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by monorail on Sat Apr 7 18:45:10 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by randyo on Sat Apr 7 18:41:02 2012.

even digital clocks?

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 7 19:19:17 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 7 12:44:13 2012.

Since they would be reverse-peak in the PM until Broad St, could they put 3 minutes fat in the schedule, and if all goes well, sit just south of the interlocking for the schedule to catch up with it ?

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(1149487)

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Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Apr 7 20:45:27 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J/Z to 9 Av, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 7 07:25:50 2012.

It seems they're only separating the Queens-bound J, Z, and M trains for some (very slight) convenience. Nothing prevents J/Z's from running on the outer tracks otherwise. A brown D to Essex would be a very interesting variation on the West End-to-6th Ave service, even if it isn't the main purpose.

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(1149493)

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Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 7 21:29:17 2012, in response to Re: Rush hour J to 9 Av, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 6 18:55:32 2012.

When I was standing on Broad St waiting for a "15" a mid-day "TT" came in, signed for 9th Ave.

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