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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 17:39:19 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Mar 11 20:26:05 2012.

:Disco Ball Logo:

OK, so they were on drugs.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 17:41:06 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 11 21:25:11 2012.

What do you want for 18% farebox recovery ?

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(1144306)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Mar 12 18:34:39 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 11 22:13:41 2012.



That actually looks kind of cool. Too bad it's also kinda slow as well :-\

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(G00GLE)

Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars


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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Mar 12 18:36:02 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 17:38:45 2012.

Should the SIR be "suburbanized"? I don't think the line is that long...is it? It would be nice to have more transverse seats though.

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(1144319)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 18:57:25 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Mar 12 18:36:02 2012.

They never had bowling alley seats before, and they will not adjust well to them.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Newkirk Images on Mon Mar 12 19:42:37 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 12 09:07:06 2012.

WAY!

Away with your no way.


R-46's will eventually go to SIR. Not my call.

Bill Newkirk



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(1144351)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Mar 12 22:04:18 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Mar 12 09:29:52 2012.

Can I make the leap, that they could run in a three car configuration?

In a word, no. Various subsystem are shared among the 4 cars in the set. Removing one car from the set will result in the disabling of various functions that would allow the safe operation of the other 3.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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(1144358)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Mar 12 23:25:45 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Mar 11 16:21:23 2012.

The bart cars are of a different length, 70' as apposed to the WMATA 75', they also don't uses married pairs.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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(1144362)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 12 23:50:34 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 12 15:35:25 2012.

the bodies are pretty similar. I am painfully aware that BART uses the wrong track guage--it was deliberate.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 12 23:57:24 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Mar 12 23:25:45 2012.

from David Pirmann's site
Length A cars = 75 feet
B/C cars = 70 feet Weight 56,000 lbs
Width 10 feet 5 inches Seats A/B cars = 72
C cars = 64
Height 10 feet 5 inches

clearly they could buy married pairs. As it is they tend to operate "modules" of 3, 4. or 5 cars each having an A on one end. They are added /subtracted as necessary to form 6.8.9.10 car trains. Those could just as well be semi permanently coupled as are the NTT trains.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 01:32:27 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 12 23:57:24 2012.

from David Pirmann's site
Length A cars = 75 feet


The A cars is a 70' shell with the 5' wedge cab tacked on the front.

B/C cars = 70 feet Weight 56,000 lbs
Width 10 feet 5 inches Seats A/B cars = 72


The width of a WMATA car is 10' 1 1/4', 10' at the door threshold.

C cars = 64
Height 10 feet 5 inches


The height of a WMATA car is 10' 11"

clearly they could buy married pairs. As it is they tend to operate "modules" of 3, 4. or 5 cars each having an A on one end. They are added /subtracted as necessary to form 6.8.9.10 car trains. Those could just as well be semi permanently coupled as are the NTT trains.

That railroad was not designed with married pairs in mind. The doors line up at the same spot regardless of the number of cars in the train.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Tue Mar 13 01:56:42 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 17:37:11 2012.

Will these be married pairs or single units?

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Mar 13 02:08:12 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 01:32:27 2012.

Yes, the door spots are fixed--except of course for the times the ATO is flaky and the attendant comes on the PA to say the train will be repositioned. For most stations, I know which door position should put me closest to the escalator where I am going. However sometimes the "correct door" is out of position at some stations.
BTW, there is serious talk of 3 door cars for the new fleet. In either case, they could buy A-B-C, A-B-B-C, and A-B-B-B-C sets. The original cars were designed to save cab space, but they learned that the A style cost many extra $$ because trains could only be lengthened by cut and splice in the yards. OTOH, C cars whose cabs are rarely used are a waste of resources.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Mar 13 03:29:09 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Tue Mar 13 01:56:42 2012.

Married pairs except only one car will have a full operator cab, so 4 cars running together A-B-B-A is the optimal setup. I'm not sure if they would be able to run a 6 car A-B-B-A-B-A train, maybe John knows the answer to that, but I think the answer is yes based on the proposed plans for the 4000 Series rehab.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 13 08:20:23 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Mar 12 22:04:18 2012.

Would a married pair, A + B have one, complete, shared system.
The subsystems you speak about, could a "single" be created by the addition of the missing subsystems, to either the A or B unit for transit systems, that may have traffic patterns that would be best served by three car sets?

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 08:37:34 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 13 08:20:23 2012.

Would a married pair, A + B have one, complete, shared system.

Only if said shared subsystems in the C cars are distributed between the A and B car.

The subsystems you speak about, could a "single" be created by the addition of the missing subsystems, to either the A or B unit for transit systems, that may have traffic patterns that would be best served by three car sets?

Yes, see above. Most but not all of the subsystems are related to automatic control, If operation is not done automatic mode then those subsystems are not needed.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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(1144408)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 08:48:39 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Mar 13 03:29:09 2012.

Married pairs except only one car will have a full operator cab, so 4 cars running together A-B-B-A is the optimal setup. I'm not sure if they would be able to run a 6 car A-B-B-A-B-A train, maybe John knows the answer to that, but I think the answer is yes based on the proposed plans for the 4000 Series rehab.

The 7k will only run in 4 and 8 car trains.

If WMATA does rehabilitate 4k, last I heard, WMATA plans to replace the 4k cars with 7k cars,

Don't know if the 4k cars would have been rehabilitated into fully functional A B married pair or into 4 car set.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 08:54:10 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Mar 13 02:08:12 2012.

C cars whose cabs are rarely used are a waste of resources.

WMATA came to the same realization, this is what the 7k cars will have half as many cars with fully functional cabs.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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(1144411)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Mar 13 09:02:15 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 17:38:45 2012.

It was called the R-110B.

Are they shot? Are they just sitting in a dormant state?

How about running them in Staten Island, for reaction from the proletariat.

There were six, out of the original nine, last time they were run.
Some, I'm not sure, were school cars or fire training cars. I think one was being cannibalized to keep the outs running.

How about cannibalizing those R-160's from the East NY wreck to get them all is service for a test in Staten Island?
Shirley some parts must be compatible, and of use, if they have not been salvaged already.

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(1144413)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Mar 13 09:17:18 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 11 17:46:02 2012.

Where do you think the first of the R142As were built, Yonkers?

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Mar 13 09:40:55 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun Mar 11 15:41:12 2012.

MARTA CQ312


WMATA 7000


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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Forest Glen on Tue Mar 13 12:34:43 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun Mar 11 15:41:12 2012.

I wish the cars kept the brown stripe and had a more colorful interior upholstery. Other than that, I'm satisfied.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:36:00 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 08:54:10 2012.

I recall seeing 2 car trains on WMATA during off hours. With the new cars' design that means that the shortest consist will be 4 cars.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 13 16:54:45 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Mar 13 03:29:09 2012.

Isn't it really A-B-B-A' ?

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(1144478)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 13 17:26:17 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:36:00 2012.

That means David Gunn could never go back to WMATA and run 2 car trains (which helped get him fired).

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Mar 13 17:52:16 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 13 16:36:00 2012.

There haven't been 2 car trains scheduled for many years now.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by merrick1 on Tue Mar 13 19:57:06 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 12 23:50:34 2012.

It's not that hard to regauge trucks. Muni runs former Philadelphia PCC cars which were originally broad gauge.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 22:00:42 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 13 16:54:45 2012.

Isn't it really A-B-B-A' ?

No it's an A-C+C-B set. The subsystem that are shared between the A and B cars in the existing fleet mostly remain shared between the 7k A and B cars. Or to put more simply, they all for all practical purposes an A B cars with 2 C cars sandwiched between.

If they were A-B+B-A sets then they could be run in 6 car consists.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by (SIR) North Shore line on Wed Mar 14 01:10:02 2012, in response to WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Mar 11 11:58:37 2012.

Give the staten island railway turnstiles at every station and piggy back some new SIR cars off of this order!

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Mar 14 01:10:55 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 12 18:57:25 2012.

More than half of the people sitting on an R44 have to sit facing that way and they can't?

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 14 09:11:24 2012, in response to WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Mar 11 11:58:37 2012.

I think losing the arm rest was a stroke of genius. It allows for spreadability.
We all know you can't put 10 lbs of $#!+ in a 5 lb bag.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 14 09:12:43 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by (SIR) North Shore line on Wed Mar 14 01:10:02 2012.

Seconded!

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 14 09:30:35 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 22:00:42 2012.

I'm trying to follow this, and don't want to get it wrong or misunderstand.

An "A" car needs a "B" and vice-versa.
When "C" cars (cab less) are added, the "A" and "B" are separated and the "C" cars are placed in between.
Question, two "C" cars are added. Are the "C" cars, "Ca" and "Cb" , that also share subsystems?

I hope I'm getting this right.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 14 15:38:35 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Mar 13 17:52:16 2012.

It has been a while since I was there. I recall riding 2 car trains on CTA years ago but they no longer do that now either.

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(1144621)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 14 16:34:50 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 22:00:42 2012.

But my final A was actually A-prime.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Mar 14 18:53:32 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 12 23:50:34 2012.

Although I don't remember what, I think there were other non-standard issues as well. I was told Kawasaki didn't bid for it because it would require building dedicated assembly facilities.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Mar 16 14:14:26 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Mar 14 09:30:35 2012.

An "A" car needs a "B" and vice-versa.
When "C" cars (cab less) are added, the "A" and "B" are separated and the "C" cars are placed in between.
Question, two "C" cars are added. Are the "C" cars, "Ca" and "Cb" , that also share subsystems?


Not totally sure, but I think no. As I understand it a 7k A and B cars coupled together would be fully functional.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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(1144993)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by zuckie13 on Fri Mar 16 17:03:25 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Fri Mar 16 14:14:26 2012.

My understanding is that everything is actually in A-B pairs. If you look at some of the info, there is an MU coupler, not a bar between back to back pairs.

They've just made a decision to generally operate them in "quads", since the want to go to 8 car trains anyway.

I believe they could operate a 6 car train if they wanted to (A-B+B-A+B-A).

There is no C car at all. All cars are either A (full cab of the pair) or B (hostler cab only)

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(1145015)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Fri Mar 16 18:43:15 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Mar 13 22:00:42 2012.

They should have just made them all pairs like the redbirds or R-32/38s etc.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Mar 16 23:19:49 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by zuckie13 on Fri Mar 16 17:03:25 2012.

My understanding is that everything is actually in A-B pairs. If you look at some of the info, there is an MU coupler, not a bar between back to back pairs.

The couplers between the 2 pairs of the quad is there for no other reason then to maintain compatibility with the hoists and lifts in the shops.

They've just made a decision to generally operate them in "quads", since the want to go to 8 car trains anyway.

I believe they could operate a 6 car train if they wanted to (A-B+B-A+B-A).


Not possible, I asked the question to someone I know inside WMATA, see below.

There is no C car at all. All cars are either A (full cab of the pair) or B (hostler cab only)

My person inside WMATA tells me that the A and B cars still share most of the various subsystems needed for automatic train operations and automatic train protection to operate in either manual or automatic modes in revenue service. The A car carries one group of subsystems, the B car carries the other group subsystems. The even numbered cars with a fully function cabs is the A car, The odd numbered cars with a fully function cabs is the B car. This is how all the cars in existing fleet numbered. The cars with the 'hostler cab' is for all practical purposes a C cars.

7000 A car - 7001 C car + 7002 C car - 7003 B car.

A 6 car train of 7k cars can not be operated in revenue service because the 3rd pair in the train lacks all the necessary subsystems that are in the 2nd pair of a quad.

An aside note:

The hostler cab is there to allow the movement of an individual pairs for coupling and uncoupling of the pairs in a quad and or other non revenue movement. A train operated from the hostler cab has no automatic train protection functionality and can not be operated at a speed greater the 15 MPH.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Mar 24 10:08:00 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by merrick1 on Tue Mar 13 19:57:06 2012.

Actually it is hard. To reguage a Philadelphia PCC from 5' 2.5" to standard gauge requires totally dissembling the truck, pulling the wide gauge axle out and inserting a standard gauge axle plus rebuilding the track brake hangers to standard gauge. That's why MUNI send the cars to Brookville, they are equipped to do large numbers of PCC rebuilds.

All PCC trucks are built as standard gauge, it's the axle widths that set the gauge.

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(1146307)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 24 13:24:40 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Mar 24 10:08:00 2012.

there is an ex PTC/SEPTA PCC rusting away in front of the Glen Echo Amusement Park main entrance once served by Capital (later DC) Transit. It is on snap track w/wide guage trucks while a set of standard guage trucks sits on the OOS rails in the concrete

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(1146341)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 24 16:45:42 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Mar 24 10:08:00 2012.

Didn't the narrow gauge PCC cars in Los Angeles use an completely different outboard bearing truck?

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(1146631)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Mar 25 16:22:56 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 24 13:24:40 2012.

Unless somebody there has access to a heavy machine shop, that car will sit on the snap track until is rusts to death.

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(1147053)

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Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Mar 27 20:01:28 2012, in response to Re: WMATA: Pictures of 7k cars, posted by merrick1 on Sat Mar 24 16:45:42 2012.

They used specialy designed trucks that used D1 wheels and the frame was designed to curve inward to the smaller axles for the 3'6" track gauge. Go to the Orange Empire Museum to see how the trucks were built.

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