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| One Big Loop d'Loop (1140970) | |
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| (1140972) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 15:22:10 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. Trains on loop lines tend to bunch up, you'd basicly take one problem for G line users and replace it with another.Never mind there is not enough space on 6th for 5 lines. |
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| (1140974) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:32:27 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 15:22:10 2012. Train bunching is something I had not considered but with the G trains schedule there is enough track capacity. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1140976) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Feb 21 15:43:43 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 15:22:10 2012. I hear that's exactly why they modified London's Circle line. They made it so it's more like a spiral (though the new name, Spiral Line, hasn't caught on... yet). |
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| (1140978) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 21 15:45:30 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Feb 21 15:43:43 2012. Is Spiral Line an actual official new name? |
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| (1140980) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:54:57 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 21 15:45:30 2012. I thought the unofficial name was Tea Cup line. |
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| (1140981) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by znufrii on Tue Feb 21 15:58:35 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. Apart from the "two short tunnel segments" you suggest constituting an engineering nightmare? What exactly would be the benefit? |
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| (1140982) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:58:37 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. After Borough Hall I propose a new short tunnel segment to connect the "local" F train tracks to the Hoyt Schermerhorn, stations current G train tracks.That's almost impossible. It will need a total rebuild. |
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| (1140983) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 21 15:59:06 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:54:57 2012. Or the Lasso Line? |
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| (1140984) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 16:14:47 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:32:27 2012. The G runs 7.5-9 tph during rush. It won't fit. |
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| (1140985) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 16:16:19 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 21 15:59:06 2012. I think they have more tea cups than lassos there. :) |
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| (1140986) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Feb 21 16:16:52 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:54:57 2012. I've heard that name thrown around, but I think Spiral is a more appropriate name, as it carries on the circle analogy. They never called it the "Tea Cup Missing its Handle" Line before it was "extended" to Hammersmith. |
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| (1140989) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:31:14 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:58:37 2012. The new tracks would be side ramps.Is there a problem with the grade? |
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| (1140990) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:31:48 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by znufrii on Tue Feb 21 15:58:35 2012. Can you be more specific. |
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| (1140991) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 16:34:49 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:31:14 2012. The problem is this is competly pointless. They can transfer to other trains to get where they are going. Spening Lord knows how much, which we don't have anyway, to satisfy a need that you Think is there... |
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| (1140993) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:43:55 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 16:14:47 2012. Have the new line instead access the already built belle mouths for lower Second Ave Subway service, south of the 63rd St, tunnel. Have a walking transfer at Houston St, (Second Ave) and after Second Ave tie the tracks directly into the Delancey St tunnel.Sixth Ave capacity restraints avoided. |
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| (1141003) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 17:25:20 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:43:55 2012. How about instead we stop pitching soluitions to problems that aren't real. |
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| (1141004) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 17:34:58 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 16:31:14 2012. Where do you think there is room for side ramps?
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| (1141005) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by mkeit on Tue Feb 21 17:37:02 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. The " short tunnel " to connect Court Sq to the 63rd St tunnel would be very difficult and expensive to construct. |
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| (1141007) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:48:59 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 17:25:20 2012. Like what?ESA over the much more important Fulton Street Transit Center LIRR station? Sending the M train to midtown and Queens blocking any hope of sending the E train to Church and possibly split to Euclid for a workable F express service? Extending the 7 train west when the MTA damn sure knows everyone wants the 7 train extended east? Putting eastbound Jamaica LIRR in zone 3 when Jamaica should be a dual fare station? Zone 3 coming from the east. City Terminal Zone coming from the west. Extending the L train for a Ninth or Tenth Ave trunk line to curve east at 57th St, and access the 63rd St, tunnel lower level that was wasted on ESA? That could have been extended via the LIRR ROW with a stop at Woodside for a Flushing Main-Street super express? The projects I propose are modest in scope or common sense and actually serve the people that live and work in this city. I would like to see you come up with some ideas of your own and then we can discuss their merits. |
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| (1141008) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:51:12 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 17:34:58 2012. Hmm... gee.. I don't know... somewhere between the orange... and the green...??? |
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| (1141009) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 17:53:04 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:48:59 2012. So you're telling me you think you know better than everone else and that people who spend thier lives working on Transportation policy should therefor listen to you.There is "What we want to do" "What we should do" and "What we can do" three diffrent things. |
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| (1141010) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:58:00 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 17:53:04 2012. If there is a problem I'm willing to listen.I asked if there was a problem with the grade and never received an answer. I learned that I was wrong about 6th Ave capacity and changed the routing. |
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| (1141013) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by znufrii on Tue Feb 21 18:02:07 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:51:12 2012. *headdesk* |
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| (1141014) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 18:24:13 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by znufrii on Tue Feb 21 18:02:07 2012. Stop, I think a felt that one... |
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| (1141020) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 19:20:20 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:58:00 2012. I asked if there was a problem with the grade and never received an answer.Wasn't showing you there's a "room" problem before worrying about "grades" a clear answer. I learned that I was wrong about 6th Ave capacity and changed the routing. It wouldn't be as useful and you still have a grade+room problem in the Chrystie/Delancey area. I couldn't really picture what you meant because you cannot easily connect from a line running down Second Ave. to a line running on Essex St. Essex is not wide enough and there's a mish-mash of tracks on different levels in that area. |
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| (1141022) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by merrick1 on Tue Feb 21 19:21:08 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. The G was intended to be a crosstown line from Queens to Brooklyn. Why would it need to go to Manhattan? |
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| (1141027) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 19:43:51 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 19:20:20 2012. I would have the track merge directly north of the Delancey/Essex St, station curve thereby avoiding the Chrystie St, connector and getting acces to the Rutgers St, tunnel. |
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| (1141035) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 20:01:35 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by merrick1 on Tue Feb 21 19:21:08 2012. True, but ridership demands have always run counter to the IND planners. In the begining of the Queens IND the only the express services were to be Manhattan-bound. The only local on Queens Blvd was the G. The R train was not yet connected to Queens Plaza.The people demanded one seat rides to Manhattan on the local, so the R train was connected. Then Many decades later the G was removed from Queens Blvd and replaced by the V, which was replaced by the M, so now you have four manhattan-bound services on Queens Boulevard. Just imagine today if they had stuck to the plan and today the only local on Queens Boulevard was the Crosstown and in Brooklyn the C trains terminated at Hoyt and you had to switch to the A to continue your trip to Manhattan? The G as a local is a ridership failure outside of it's capture. It was a failure on Queens Boulevard and it is a failure on the Culver. Connecting the line to Manhattan in this way or in some other way would be the right move for the communities served by the G train. |
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| (1141042) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 21:27:46 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 19:43:51 2012. The Delancey platforms start at Rivington St. so tracks have to merge north of that. Where would they diverge from Second Ave. coming down from uptown, merge to Essex between Stanton and Rivington yet manage to stop at Second Av./Houston while avoiding Chrystie tracks and the Second Av. middle and outer tracks? |
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| (1141043) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 21:44:17 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 17:48:59 2012. Feasibility, politics, followed by no demand and money.ESA over the much more important Fulton Street Transit Center LIRR station? Feasibility and money. Sending the M train to midtown and Queens blocking any hope of sending the E train to Church and possibly split to Euclid for a workable F express service? Demand. Extending the 7 train west when the MTA damn sure knows everyone wants the 7 train extended east? Feasibility, politics and money. Putting eastbound Jamaica LIRR in zone 3 when Jamaica should be a dual fare station? Zone 3 coming from the east. City Terminal Zone coming from the west. Politics and money. Extending the L train for a Ninth or Tenth Ave trunk line to curve east at 57th St, and access the 63rd St, tunnel lower level that was wasted on ESA? That could have been extended via the LIRR ROW with a stop at Woodside for a Flushing Main-Street super express? All four. The projects I propose are modest in scope or common sense Not modest, I think. |
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| (1141053) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 22:02:06 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 21:44:17 2012. try "not modest at all" |
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| (1141072) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by vfrt on Tue Feb 21 23:24:43 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. How would you PAY for your proposal???? |
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| (1141077) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Feb 21 23:55:48 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 21:27:46 2012. Aside from going from an SAS stop at Houston to Delancey St on the F, a connection from the SAS to the F north of Delancey isn't quite that unthinkable. The uptown F track either ducks down or at least stays lower than the downtown track due to the Second System provision at Houston. If it's low enough, you can have the SAS merge in at the curve without crossing at grade. Of course, it will probably negatively impact on the properties above ground and it will also mean demolishing the center tracks west of 2nd Ave/Houston St. |
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| (1141081) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Wed Feb 22 00:04:36 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. I would build a new line from Javits Center under 23rd street to a new East River tunnel to connect to the G line, eliminating Court Square, and extend the Franklin S northward to connect with the G. That would provide increased capacity to Manhattan and make both, the G and S lines extremely useful alternatives for commuters. |
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| (1141086) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:27:31 2012, in response to One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 15:15:02 2012. this was sought out by the The MTA[the local track connector from Hoyt to Jay],in the sense of thing..its a damn good idea..but its a tricky construction job..especially the the "Queens bound" tunnel structure.it has too fan out..then rise above the F line tunnel box..over the Fulton/Court tunnel box to a junction merging from the right.,maybe. another way would be to merge it in from the left...saving on cost. The Manhattan bound track isnt much of a problem as it would have nothing but right angled turnouts..Tight..YES..but it can work.. Property MAY be taken on Smith st... |
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| (1141087) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:29:30 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 15:58:37 2012. No it doesnt..the Chrystie st line was shoehorned into the Houston st line without a problem.. |
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| (1141088) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:34:10 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by The Silence on Tue Feb 21 16:34:49 2012. incorrect..it would solve a serious bottle neck shifting the C from merging with the A at Hoyt st and Canal st..to the F which has plenty of capacity between Jay and West 4th st. |
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| (1141089) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Feb 22 01:59:21 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:34:10 2012. I think you're describing connecting the abandoned local tracks at Hoyt with the F train, which looks almost doable engineering-wise. However the original proposal was an additional connection from the G train tracks to the F train tracks, forming a kind of 'Y'. |
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| (1141105) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by merrick1 on Wed Feb 22 07:39:43 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 20:01:35 2012. I used to ride the G from Court Square to Fulton Street regularly. The train was always full of Brooklyn Tech kids. There is demand for service from Queens to Brooklyn. |
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| (1141113) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 22 08:41:47 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:29:30 2012. Considering the space available at the time both below and above ground at Houston/Chrystie/Delancey Sts. and the complexity of the existing junctions and what's above ground at Jay/Smith/Schermerhorn Sts., it's meaningless to compare the two locations. |
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| (1141114) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 22 08:44:00 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:27:31 2012. Property MAY be taken on Smith st...You mean MUST. It's all cut and cover in that area. |
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| (1141115) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 22 08:55:06 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by 3-9 on Tue Feb 21 23:55:48 2012. Even if that were possible, how would you go from Second Ave. to Ave. A/Essex? There's the F under Houston, the L under 14th and none of the streets in between are wide enough to have turns without touching building lines. And forget about digging under Stuy Town as they would never allow it. |
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| (1141121) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Feb 22 10:13:04 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 22 08:55:06 2012. I'm pretty sure you can start turning out south of Stuytown, the distance to Houston is roughly half a mile. You will have to cross under property lines though. |
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| (1141132) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 22 12:16:47 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by 3-9 on Wed Feb 22 10:13:04 2012. You will have to cross under property lines though.That's why I said, "none of the streets in between are wide enough to have turns without touching building lines". With rents higher than the SAS Phase 1 area, I don't think that's an option anymore. |
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| (1141146) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by The Silence on Wed Feb 22 14:07:26 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 01:29:30 2012. underground it was, the surface was a diffrent story. |
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| (1141149) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by grand concourse on Wed Feb 22 14:41:06 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 20:01:35 2012. With the new condos going up in Queens, I don't see why the G ridership is a failure. The G works by taking ppl either north to take the E,M,7 lines to Manhattan or south to the L. There is no point in altering the G. A line has to serve Brooklyn-Queens directly. If people needs Manhattan service, that's what the other lines are for. |
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| (1141211) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 21:51:36 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by E and F and sometimes J on Tue Feb 21 20:01:35 2012. the G never was a failure..at ANY POINT of its existence...if someone cooks you a shitty meal and there are no other options..then your gonna eat that shitty meal to get FULL..Until something better is presented to you.. well that is exactly how the TA/MTA ran the GG/G line for years..and they STILL DO.. |
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| (1141220) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 22:57:37 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop, posted by The Silence on Wed Feb 22 14:07:26 2012. two points...The land was cleared out for the LOMEX/SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY.. The land can be acquired to build the brooklyn connector. |
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| (1141221) | |
Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 22 23:03:42 2012, in response to Re: One Big Loop d'Loop (Change of Plans), posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 21 19:20:20 2012. Dude..in NEW YORK..ANYTHING is possible..The WTC stood on LAND FILL in the HUDSON RIVER.. Starret City is built on GARBAGE in the JAMAICA BAY.. A subway was built under the most water lagged street in NYC[Archer Avenue] |
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