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| Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line (1106488) | |
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| (1107378) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 13:01:12 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 13:00:58 2011. Thats It??No Perks?? |
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| (1107379) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 13:02:35 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 13:01:12 2011. Oh ya that come without saying. Top of the line heath serivce, My own Limo. |
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| (1107380) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 13:06:05 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 13:02:35 2011. Works for me, When it happens il have my lawyers contact your lawyers... |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1107384) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Oct 4 14:47:18 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 12:38:54 2011. Eventually they will run out of parts and supplies and Siemens has been lately notorious for discontinuing them early than the industry is accustomed to. That's why in Japan railway companies are changing their VVVF inverters to Toshiba or Mitsubishi made ones.The case of the L is pretty bad. As it was a test bed project, no one else in the world uses the same system. It was also one of the first RF based CBTC implemented. It may become more costly to order both the on-train and way side equipment to the point that it will become cheaper to change to an unified system. Paris will switch from induction based to RF based soon and it's supposed to have the improvements made after the L line tests. |
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| (1107387) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 14:58:46 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Oct 4 14:47:18 2011. The back lash alone from this eff up may keep them from doing anything. Just my understanding of talking to those who work with this system. |
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| (1107388) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 4 15:07:05 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Oct 4 14:47:18 2011. Obviously you are talking about many, many years from now, right? |
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| (1107389) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Oct 4 15:14:05 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Sep 30 21:44:23 2011. OR take the 7 to 74th and change there for the E/F/R. |
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| (1107390) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Oct 4 15:20:04 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 10:53:51 2011. If they have to re-do the L at some point:I would do it where the unused tracks at Atlantic Avenue are re-activated and re-built so they can be used for CBTC, while at the same time also extend all the stations so they can handle 10-car trains as well as set it up so the flyover can be used to have a Rockaway Parkway branch trains be able to use the Broadway Brooklyn line to Manhattan. This would allow the L to potentially terminate at Atlantic Avenue so it can better serve the more heavily used portion of that line with an easy transfer between the L and the Rockaway Branch for those looking for one (via Broadway Brooklyn) or the other. |
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| (1107391) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:29:56 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 3 08:21:41 2011. this time the MTA know what it did wrongUnfortunately for the MTA, there are usually many ways to do something wrong. It's not reassuring, when the strongest argument for the MTA's competence is that they arrived at an engineering solution through a process of elimination. They found out if the CBTC goes down on the L line, the line will shout down since there no back up signel system. One component of every CBTC system, including the Canary Sea, is an auxiliary wayside system (AWS). This is required for the system to function, if a train with no or non-functioning communication system is on the track. CBTC has no way of knowing if foreign equipment is on the track. |
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| (1107392) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:45:34 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 4 15:07:05 2011. you are talking about many, many years from now, right?He was probably talking about 5 years ago for the RF-DCS. It's not unusual for an electronics system to be obsolete before it's completed. |
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| (1107393) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:50:50 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Tue Oct 4 12:35:16 2011. Did you read NETO Post?Yes. That's why I felt the urge to set the record straight to impressionable minds. I've been contributing technical analyses regarding CBTC for more than 10 years on SubChat and SubTalk. The technology has not changed. |
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| (1107396) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 4 15:55:07 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:45:34 2011. But I'm talking about him talking about total replacement. |
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| (1107398) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 4 15:56:36 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:45:34 2011. And even if it is obsolete, that doesn't mean they need to replace it immediately. Which is why I am assuming he is talking about a full replacement many many years in the future. |
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| (1107407) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 16:36:48 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 4 15:56:36 2011. if it is obsolete, that doesn't mean they need to replace it immediately.Here's the first problem with the RF-DCS. It's a proprietary design that the MTA agreed to as an exception to the original contract. There were supposed to be 3 suppliers. One of the suppliers dropped out, when the proprietary RF-DCS was substituted for the off-the-shelf unit that was originally specified. The second supplier offered to reverse engineer the proprietary design. The TA said NO - buy them from Siemens. Here's the second problem with the RF-DCS. It wasn't exactly Siemens' proprietary design. Siemens bought them from an outside vendor. The outside vendor designed them for the electronics market. When anticipated sales in the 100K's did not materialize, they scrapped the device. That outside vendor does not want to be bothered with special orders of 20 to 50 at a time. Here's the third problem with the RF-DCS. The signals that connect the RF-DCS with the central computer or the on-board computer are proprietary, unlike the off-the-shelf RF-DCS it replaced. To replace the RF-DCS they will have to reverse engineer the entire Siemens system not just the RF-DCS. The RF-DCS isn't really a discrete subsystem; it's integral to the entire on-board and wayside equipment. Here's the fourth problem with the RF-DCS. It cost approximately 10 times the cost of the off-the-shelf RF-DCS it replaced. The off-the-shelf RF-DCS cost approximately 10 times what commercially available RF Digital Communication Systems cost that did exactly the same thing. At the time the RF-DCS was specified, it cost $100K when ruggedized commercial equipment cost around $1K. Since the RF-DCS is no longer available, special orders have pushed the cost up towards the $1 million mark. You can get complete on-board and wayside equipment that includes the RF-DCS that is based on commercial products for approximately 1/4 the cost of the RF-DCS alone. |
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| (1107450) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:44:12 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:29:56 2011. One component of every CBTC system, including the Canary Sea, is an auxiliary wayside system (AWS). This is required for the system to function, if a train with no or non-functioning communication system is on the track. CBTC has no way of knowing if foreign equipment is on the track.The only place on the L line now that has Signal are at interlocks. If a train CBTC system goes down lets say CNR bound at Lormar the the track ahead of this train has to be clearded up to Myrtle Ave. Once all train are cleared the B/O train has to go into RM up to Myrlte Ave at 10mph. Once there the train then can be up into AWSP, but again there has to be clear track all must cleared in frount and behind it since the system still does not know there a train there. Big Mess if this ever happens. |
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| (1107453) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 4 20:49:10 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:44:12 2011. Wow ...brilliant design. Nothing ever fails on trains ... :( |
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| (1107454) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:50:07 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 4 20:49:10 2011. You think. you have no train able to move untill that train get to the yard. |
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| (1107458) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 4 21:01:14 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:50:07 2011. Very well thought out contract there ... you'd think that if CBTC died on YOUR train, that control would be able to see the others and radio you back "you're clear to ..." and let you proceed at least that far pending further orders at OOS speed. If the whole thing goes down, then I can see "everybody stop and stay until a maintainer gets there" ...I was under the impression though that they were going to leave at least SOME wayside signalling in the event of such a ... oh nevermind. I keep forgetting ... Empty-yay brain power. :) |
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| (1107461) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Oct 4 21:11:17 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:44:12 2011. From a previous message: "One component of every CBTC system, including the Canary Sea, is an auxiliary wayside system (AWS). This is required for the system to function, if a train with no or non-functioning communication system is on the track. CBTC has no way of knowing if foreign equipment is on the track.The only place on the L line now that has Signal are at interlocks. If a train CBTC system goes down lets say CNR bound at Lormar the the track ahead of this train has to be clearded up to Myrtle Ave. Once all train are cleared the B/O train has to go into RM up to Myrlte Ave at 10mph. Once there the train then can be up into AWSP, but again there has to be clear track all must cleared in frount and behind it since the system still does not know there a train there. Big Mess if this ever happens." It would be really nice if you explain what you had just said without abbreviations. Not all of us speak "techy transit talk" even when we're trying to follow along on the topic at hand. Thanks, Mike |
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| (1107468) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 22:29:26 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Oct 4 20:44:12 2011. The only place on the L line now that has Signal are at interlocks.The design specification for the AWS was 3 tph (20 minute headway). The idea was to permit non-CBTC work equipment to go on the line and still maintain schedules. This spec allows the blocks and the interlocks to coincide. The AWS becomes operative, if a train detected on a block does not respond to a radio query. This can happen if foreign equipment is on the track or RF-DCS loses contact with a train. With no knowledge of where all trains are within an AWS block, the only safe operation for CBTC equipped followers is to wait until the AWS block clears. |
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| (1107482) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:24:52 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:50:50 2011. Yes. That's why I felt the urge to set the record straight to impressionable minds.Ah i see... I've been contributing technical analyses regarding CBTC for more than 10 years on SubChat and SubTalk. The technology has not changed. Really? So have you also contributed this to the MTA as well? Did you assist with CBTC since its Inception? |
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| (1107483) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 5 00:30:20 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 15:50:50 2011. Yes. That's why I felt the urge to set the record straight to impressionable minds. You're a good man. I'm glad you are here to set the record straight on these CBTC issues. It really sucks when we get vague or misinformation or less than the whole story. |
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| (1107484) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:32:51 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 4 22:29:26 2011. The design specification for the AWS was 3 tph (20 minute headway). The idea was to permit non-CBTC work equipment to go on the line and still maintain schedules. This spec allows the blocks and the interlocks to coincide.Only reason i can see this if there is some kind of G.O or Major Problem IF a Work train is needed From 8th Ave to Bushwich Aberdeen. All of the automatics are to be removed. As Rob said Only Homesignals will be in Place at Interlockings. AWS is and always Will be in place from Bway Jucntion to Canarise due to Work trains Leaving and going to Linden Yard as well as Lay ups and Wash Trains... The AWS becomes operative, if a train detected on a block does not respond to a radio query. This can happen if foreign equipment is on the track or RF-DCS loses contact with a train. With no knowledge of where all trains are within an AWS block, the only safe operation for CBTC equipped followers is to wait until the AWS block clears. In Laymans terms, If CBTC goes to Chit Between 8th Ave and Bushwick Absolute Block at The Interlockings One train per Interlocking area... |
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| (1107485) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Oct 5 00:32:57 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 5 00:30:20 2011. Still waiting for that apology, whineburg! |
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| (1107486) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:34:34 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Train Dude on Wed Oct 5 00:32:57 2011. Its apparent hes not reading the whole Thread Again...With his Leg Humping... |
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| (1107487) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:36:20 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Train Dude on Wed Oct 5 00:32:57 2011. BTW you know the "boy" isnt MAN enough to do that..Its past his bedtime anyway... |
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| (1107489) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 00:38:43 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:36:20 2011. He's probably going to be up all night now getting the WHOLE story by reading the bid specifications and "as built" diagrams until sunrise. :) |
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| (1107490) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:40:59 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 00:38:43 2011. I could care less...It burns him he cant get any kind of job down here on his own, gotta s**k up or get a buddy to do it... |
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| (1107491) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 00:42:51 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:40:59 2011. Dewd ... I was just going for the gag ... do you think *I* give a ship? :) |
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| (1107493) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:45:41 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 00:42:51 2011. Heh im aware of that Kevin very much... |
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| (1107496) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 01:25:05 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:45:41 2011. Welllll ... lemme know when you go back to the 1 train and I'll help you strap him to the storm door. :) |
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| (1107497) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 01:29:24 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 01:25:05 2011. I had my fill of the "Numbers" Lines thanks Kevin... |
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| (1107498) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 5 01:34:46 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 01:29:24 2011. Heh. Words to live by. :) |
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| (1107519) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 5 07:28:59 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 00:32:51 2011. The AWS blocks are between the interlockings. Specifically, between 8th and 3rd Aves; 3rd and Bedford Aves; Bedford and Myrtle Aves; Myrtle Ave and Broadway Jct; Broadway Jct and Rockaway Pkwy.The operational problem is, where would a non-communicating train be removed from the CBTC track? There are two layup tracks that the TA prefers not to use for this purpose (at 8th and Myrtle Aves). They prefer to remove such trains at Broadway Jct, thereby effectively reducing the line's AWS functionality to two blocks. |
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| (1107537) | |
Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Oct 5 09:13:20 2011, in response to Re: CBTC installation begins on the Flushing Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 5 07:28:59 2011. The operational problem is, where would a non-communicating train be removed from the CBTC track?Its a problem for the Commuters(As well as the one at RCC) if anything.. Now if a trains CBTC goes gaga (or MAL failure) its supposed to go into emergency if im correct you recharge, you gotta take a Restricted Manual and go by RCC instructions. Any train in front of it keeps Moving and any train Behind it just has to stop and Stay. So there goes yer railroad no way to put it anywhere but the Yard. They Wont put it in those relay positions so they can use them to turn trains... |
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