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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 19:54:37 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:59:32 2011. Conrail didn't want to do the maintenance on what was, admittedly, a very small portion of its overall system. Had CR's electrification been more substantial, it might still be there today. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Jan 14 20:22:57 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 19:54:37 2011. Also, those ex Virginian, ex New Haven "Bricks" used Ignitron rectifiers which were not very reliable and expensive to maintain. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 20:23:26 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:49:08 2011. The Northeast is one area where passenger rail thrives and probably is more desirable than air travel. You basically have one fifth of the country's population located within a100 mile radius of the Northeast Corridor. I would never fly to Boston or Washington, even if I wasn't a railfan, simply because Amtrak is more convenient. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 20:26:50 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:59:32 2011. Conrail didn't think the benefits of electrified freight trains were worth keeping a separate, electric fleet, along with having to make engine changes wherever the wire ended. Diesels can go anywhere (except Manhattan) whether there's wire or not.I do believe Conrail tried to pawn off it's E44's to NJT for use on commuter trains, but the were geared only for a top speed of 60 MPH. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jan 14 21:09:33 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011. I like it, is it double-ended? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 21:21:34 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jan 14 21:09:33 2011. Yes it is. You aren't going to see a new electric motor with a single cab, unless it's the power car of a high-speed train. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 21:21:42 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jan 14 21:09:33 2011. It is expected to be, much like the AEM-7/7AC and HHPs. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jan 14 21:43:42 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:10:12 2011. I was kind of surprised to learn that BNSF's concepts for electrifying their Transcon line from Chicago to LA advanced to the point where they approached both EMD and GE about doing AC electric locomotives. Both builders said they would be open to the project as a freight electric locomotive really isn't all that different from a diesel locomotive.It'll be interesting to see how things shake out in the future. BNSF was exploring electrification before the recession in order to meet their growing motive power needs. In particular the requirement for their fastest intermodal trains to overtake slower merchant and intermodal freights resulted in a constraint on the line's capacity. Equipping their lower priority freights with the same motive power consists to keep pace with the priority Z trains would have resulted in a marked increase in fuel burn and an unacceptable increase in costs. BNSF's electrification plan was roviding that power with electric locomotives they could provide equal power to weight ratios without an excessive cost. It is possible that once the economy recovers BNSF will again be forced to look into electrification on the Transcon. But then the new Panama Canal will likely begin operation in 2014, which could greatly reduce transcontinental container traffic as the shipping lines use the canal to bypass our ports and freight railroad systems. But then the largest post-Panamax ships will still be too large for the canal, and which are becoming the preferred method for transpacific and transatlantic transport. It is possible the shipping companies will trade transloading to railroads in exchange for 14,000+ container ships instead of the 12,000 container ships which will be able to transit the new Panama Canal locks. As a result the long term outlook for our freight railroads, in particular BNSF, which draws most of its revenue from intermodal traffic than UP, is extremely questionable. It could either decline as the shipping companies bypass our transcontinental freights, or increase as they rely on container ships too large for the new canal locks. It is likely the electrification of our freight railroads likely rides on the outcomes of those eventualities. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jan 14 23:16:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jan 14 13:14:57 2011. Their not, their slated to be converted to 7 sets of New 10 car Acela's with one power car for spare. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jan 14 23:18:58 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:27:24 2011. no way Amtrak would chose Bombardier. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Sat Jan 15 14:52:15 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 21:21:34 2011. Why are electric motors (except in trainsets) always double-ended, while diesel locos almost never are? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sat Jan 15 15:28:09 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011. They're still out there. I've ridden train #170 tiwce in the last few months and both times a HHP-8 was our power. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sat Jan 15 15:32:24 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011. Looks kinda cool. The AEM7 have really held their own patrolling The Corridor over the years. I'll always remmeber the Toasters and it'll be a sad day when they're no longer racing up and down the NEC. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jan 15 16:39:03 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Brighton Private on Sat Jan 15 14:52:15 2011. Electrics have over abundance of space, Diesels do not.With electrics you can squeeze 8000 ponies in a 84 ton car body and still have room left over. With a diesel you get 4200 ponies in a 124 ton car body and look for every nook and cranny to put stuff in. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 15 18:31:58 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jan 15 16:39:03 2011. Some diesels have 6000 horses. Imagine a 7HDL prime mover in a Genesis with AC traction motors? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 15 20:03:39 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Brighton Private on Sat Jan 15 14:52:15 2011. Over on this continent it's extremely rare to see a double-ended diesel. We've had them, of course (CNJ's Baldwin DR6-4-2000 "Janus" babyface variant) and we've made them for overseas (JL8, JT22CW for example), but they never caught on here, with the cost of cabs cited as the common excuse. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jan 15 20:07:19 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 15 18:31:58 2011. Not passenger diesels, freight behemoths are not fit for travel over 65 mph |
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Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 30 21:42:04 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011. Progressive Railroading
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 1 14:19:39 2011, in response to Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 30 21:42:04 2011. Well, so that's what anti-capitalism must be. No excessive profits to upgrade or expand, the money comes from somewhere else, and goes to a company famous near it's HQ for it's outsourcing. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 14:35:36 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 1 14:19:39 2011. Not only that, the loan is for almost $100 million more than the cost of the locomotives was estimated for last year. So that means the new motors are up to $8.13 million per unit from $6.7 million per unit last year. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 16:29:47 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:32:07 2011. IAWTP |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 1 16:41:51 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:36:04 2011. Amtrak and Bombardier ??? not if Amtrak can help it. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 16:50:37 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jan 15 20:07:19 2011. freight behemoths are not fit for travel over 65 mphGuess you never heard of UP's "Fast Forties", the SD40-2s geared for 90 mph? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Jul 1 17:40:49 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jan 15 20:07:19 2011. Any general merchandise (i.e - box car, hopper, etc.) is limited to 60 MPH, but those carrying hazardous materials may be limited to 50 MPH. Intermodal and stack trains in the West are run faster, usually 70 MPH but some stretches of 75 MPH are out there.The Sante Fe's Super C Freight service (TOFC) ran as fast as 79 MPH. The DD40X had a top speed of 90 MPH although I doubt they ever reached it in freight service. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 2 14:51:56 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 16:50:37 2011. freight behemoths are not fit for travel over 65 mphGuess you never heard of UP's "Fast Forties", the SD40-2s geared for 90 mph?, Before Unca Pete, Santa Fe had 45 of the 90 SD45-2's bought in the mid-70's also geared for 90.... |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 15:09:51 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 2 14:51:56 2011. yup and ask the engineers how they liked the ride ??They did not. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 2 15:35:47 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 15:09:51 2011. I have not read any complaints from ATSF engineers about the ride. Remember they also picked up some of those evil Amtrak SDP40F's & had no issues. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 15:38:58 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 2 15:35:47 2011. just because those locomotives were geared at 90 did not mean they ran at 90.If you ever run a freight unit at over 75 you know what I mean. Now lets get back to subject. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 2 16:03:01 2011, in response to Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 30 21:42:04 2011. The RRIF program is a model of how we can leverage federal dollars to spur private investment and build up the economy,” said Federal Railroad Administrator Joseph Szabo in a prepared statement. “It provides steady, affordable financing for major rail construction and expansion projects, and best of all, it comes at zero cost to the taxpayer.”I'm happy to see Amtrak get the new engines they badly need, but this is just pure, 100% bullcrap. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 16:07:19 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 2 16:03:01 2011. Of course; it's just political speak. BTW, that ups the per-unit cost of the ACS-64 from $6.7 million to $8.04 million, IOW from a little over half the cost of an ALP-45DP to two-thirds of the cost. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 2 16:17:52 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 16:07:19 2011. I've read elsewhere that they intend for these to replace both the toasters AND the HHP-8's. Are they really going to retire locomotives after less than 15 years in service? I know they were PITA with the truck cracking and voltage changing difficulties .... |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 16:39:32 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 2 16:17:52 2011. I've read elsewhere that they intend for these to replace both the toasters AND the HHP-8's. Are they really going to retire locomotives after less than 15 years in service?Yup. Why not . . . after all, they retired the SDP40Fs after 12 years and the P30CHs after 18 years, and of course NJT retired their newest ALP-44s after a mere 14 years in service . . . it's only public money, right? (The F40PHs lasted a mere 27 years, as associated as they were with Amtrak in many people's minds.) |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 16:56:35 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 16:39:32 2011. The HHP-8 will not be retired, its planned to be converted to powerheads for 7 more ACELA trains., leaving one unit spare. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 17:03:16 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 16:56:35 2011. These trains going to materialize out of thin air or something . . . ? Where are they coming from? Certainly ain't going to be BBD. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 17:08:11 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 17:03:16 2011. you never know, cars can be build by others, Acela plans were bought by Amtrak, so they can go to any manufacturer to make cars. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 18:12:18 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jan 14 14:46:07 2011. What?!?!What modern locomotive DOESN'T have MU ability? Anyhow, proff of MU ability: 
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 18:15:09 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jan 14 23:16:55 2011. Huh? Where did you read this? I read about Amtrak ordering cars to expand existing Acela sets, and a future order of all-new sets, but nothing about converting these mechanically unreliable locomotives into Acela power cars. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 18:24:38 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 18:15:09 2011. I don't read thinks, I got inside connections.I was right about new Viewliners I was right about electrics not being ALP-46a's mark my words ;-) |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 18:26:28 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 18:12:18 2011. They could initially not MU with MetroLiner cab cars, but the problem seem to have been corrected.When two HHP-8's are MU'ed with each other they automaticly step back from 8000 Hp to max 6000 Hp to avoid blowing the power in Catenary. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 18:53:06 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:20:09 2011. You left out Metra's former IC electric operation, and NICTDs\'s former CSS&SB operation, however both are currently EMU-only. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 19:10:05 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 14:35:36 2011. The article indicates that the cost includes parts, supports, and shop enhancements. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 19:10:49 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 19:10:05 2011. It always does. $12 million per unit for the ALP-45DP includes the same, but when you shave off the parts costs, you still have a very high per-unit cost. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 19:16:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Jul 2 18:24:38 2011. I don't see it happening; unless Acela service is extended to Richmond or Newport News (or Richmond AND Newport News) there isn't much need for that many additional trainsets. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 19:23:50 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 19:16:55 2011. If those Acela trains ever were to go to Richmond, they'd have to go through the whole rigmarole of building high platforms just for them. That's what you get when you build a long-distance train on a system with two types of platform that's built for only one type . . . if the Metroliner MU went to Richmond, no such problem. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 2 22:42:09 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Hank EisenStein on Sat Jul 2 19:16:55 2011. None of that will happen unless money suddenly becomes available for electrification, right-of-way improvements, building of high level platforms at all stations along the route, possible crossing eliminations if high speeds are considered, plus some kind of concessions with CSX and NS about freight operations on the line. Doesn't even see a glimmer of happening unless there is $$$$$$$. |
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Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 3 00:38:54 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak gets USDOT approval for $563M RRIF loan to buy 70 ACS-64s, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 2 19:10:49 2011. No doubt, these are more complicated engines. An electric locomotive is not much more than a large transformer on rails. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 3 12:08:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 2 22:42:09 2011. I'm not even sure you could justify the cost of electrification south of DC. How many Regionals run south of DC a day? 6-8? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by chuchubob on Sun Jul 3 13:48:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 3 12:08:55 2011. I'm not even sure you could justify the cost of electrification south of DC. How many Regionals run south of DC a day? 6-8?Yes; eight each way between Washington and Richmond. Considering the large increase in Keystone Service ridership when it returned to electric operation, I suspect several additional trains would be added between Richmond and Washington if electrification were extended. |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 3 14:33:51 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by chuchubob on Sun Jul 3 13:48:55 2011. Returned to electric operation? Wasn't it always electric? |
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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Jul 3 14:59:05 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011. It looks nice but I will miss the HHP. I had one to and from DC on trains 97 and 98. The "hippo" does quite well on the Balto-Wilmg segment. |
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