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Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011

Here is a possible face of what will replace the AEM-7/AEM-7AC and HHP-8 motors, the Siemens ACS-64 (Amtrak City Sprinter)

Siemens ACS-64
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Forgive me if this was posted already, but if not, here you go!! Comments and FRIENDLY discussion, of course, please!! :-)

IMHO.....Long live the AEM-7ACs!!! Down with the "Hippo" HHP-8!!

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(1025428)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:13:14 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jan 14 13:14:57 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011.

Aren't the HHP-8's fairly new? When would they be scheduled for replacement?

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(G00GLE)

Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design


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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:15:15 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:13:14 2011.

That's........

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....to you, bruddah man!! :-D

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:16:45 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jan 14 13:14:57 2011.

The HHP-8s are infamously unreliable. Their performance, though, has improved but marginally. Enough Amtrak guys I have talked to say they are crap and are quite problematic. Often multiple HHP-8s were out of service for some kind of sidelining mechanical difficulties.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:19:00 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:15:15 2011.

Fine...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jan 14 13:19:19 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:16:45 2011.

Yes but does that mean Amtrak is planning to replace them prematurely? If not, who knows what the ultimate replacement would look like.

I seem to remember hearing similar complaints about the LIRR's diesels, and they're still there.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:21:51 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:19:00 2011.

Many thanks!!! :-D

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:24:00 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Jan 14 13:19:19 2011.

AFAI-Heard, the HHP-8s were never that good from the word go, and if they are going to be mechanical basket cases, always being out of service the way they have been, and sometimes still are, there is no point in keeping them around as they are probably expensive to keep fixing and getting parts, and also for their cost do no good if they are not doing what they were purchased to do, and that's provide the service and operation as needed daily.

And the LIRR DE/DM class hardly are out of service to the amount the HHP-8s have been.

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(1025448)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:24:00 2011.

I haven't seen one on the NEC anywhere in months. Even two days before Christmas, when Amtrak was really in demand.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:27:24 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011.

Why not simply go with the ALP-46, which has proven itself well on Amtrak trackage? I am sure that they can be modified to reach 120 MPH.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:27:48 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011.

Well, here is one I caught yesterday passing the Stamford Yard Office, and yes one of few that actually are on the road at a given time.......
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:29:35 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:21:51 2011.

Anytime...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:30:34 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:27:24 2011.

Probably much like the LIRR "disease", they want something Amtrak-specific, not a knock-off of another railroad's equipment, similar to how the LIRR chose the DE/DM class as opposed to what many said they should have done and that was go for the P32AC-DMs. LIRR didn't wanna be a copycat of MNR and Amtrak, and wanted something LIRR-specific, and Amtrak is doing same, much as how they went with their own designs for the Acela as opposed to a copycatted X-2000 or an ICE trainset for the NEC.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:30:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 14 13:29:35 2011.

:-)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:32:07 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:30:34 2011.

That's insane. If money can be saved and increased performance and reliability can be acheived, who cares?

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:36:04 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:32:07 2011.

Well one thing I found interesting. Out west, Amtrak's Talgo is running and performing very well. Maybe if they did go with a little copycatting, they might have had a solid product. The ALP-46/46As seem to be performing well for NJT, and maybe you are right, they should consider the ALP-46/46A build and design instead of the agency-specific approach.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 14 13:37:14 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011.

I see them whenever I'm really in the mood for an AEM7. This really grinds my gears.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:38:49 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:36:04 2011.

I was thinking that, since the ALP-46 is a proven design, they could be put into service in numbers relatively quickly, as opposed to a new design that's untested on American rails.

How will this new engine handle very old catenary? Multiple voltage changes?

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(1025464)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:44:27 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 14 13:37:14 2011.

As much as not being able to find the droids you're looking for?

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by MattW on Fri Jan 14 13:46:36 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 14 13:37:14 2011.

Photobucket

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(1025473)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by R30A on Fri Jan 14 14:17:57 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:38:49 2011.

ACS 64 is an equivilantly proven design.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 14:45:58 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:30:34 2011.

much as how they went with their own designs for the Acela as opposed to a copycatted X-2000 or an ICE trainset for the NEC

Supposedly, Amtrak went with Acela primarily because they were able to secure better financing from Bombardier than from Siemens or ABB. Coincidentally, by the time Amtrak started operating Acela, ABB ended up becoming a part of Bombardier. Even though the ALP-46 is really of an AdTranz lineage*, one could argue that Amtrak just doesn't want to be bothered with Bombardier (and Alstom) anymore given the problems from Acela.

*Note the progression:
AEM-7 -> ASEA
ALP-44 -> ABB
ALP-46 -> AdTranz
ALP-46A -> Bombardier

The HHP-8 is the odd duck being based on Alstom's Sybic motors which weren't highly regarded even in France, and the Acela locomotives were based on an equivalent Class 101-esque design for SNCF that was never built due to SNCF opting for a larger order of TGV sets...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jan 14 14:46:07 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011.

Interesting how they never end up on the Keystone. I guess they don't have the "MU" or "push pull" capabilities that the AEM-7s have (my favorite locomotive!)?

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 14:54:19 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:38:49 2011.

since the ALP-46 is a proven design, they could be put into service in numbers relatively quickly

I suspect that the secret problem is that unlike our friends at State Railways in Newark, Amtrak is forced to comply with Buy America requirements due to its use of federal dollars, and at that point, Siemens and Bombardier are going to be on somewhat equal footing as that would require both firms to set up a new production line in the United States.

How will this new engine handle very old catenary?

Testing?

Multiple voltage changes?

Dude, the Siemens Eurosprinters are capable of 15kV @ 16.7 hz, 25kV @ 50 hz, 1.5kV DC, and 3kV DC. Playing around with Amtrak's voltages and frequencies isn't that much trouble, especially with modern electric components.

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(1025479)

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:01:46 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 14:45:58 2011.

What's interesting about the AEM7 is that it was based on a design that was known to work well, the ASEA Rc4 series. I remember a LOT of grumbling back in the early '80s, about how the design was "not American", even though the AEM7s were built here under license by EMD. Interestingly, Amtrak sought to repace two classes of locomotive with the AEM7, the ex-Pennsy GG1s and their own trouclede GE E60CP units, much like they are seeking to do now as regards the 30-year-old AEM7s and the newer HHP8s. History repeats itself.

I also remember Amtrak's ill-fated TurboTrain, RTG-01 derivative, and the LRC prototypes...Damn, I'm getting old...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:04:02 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by R30A on Fri Jan 14 14:17:57 2011.

Not in North America.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:06:01 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:04:02 2011.

The Rc4 design wasn't a "proven success" in North America until it was brought over here as the AEM-7, which has done quite well over its service life.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:07:07 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:01:46 2011.

Except for Bombardier, Europe has conquered the electric traction market. EMD, MPI and GE are committed only to diesels. Makes sense, since the domestic market for electrics is smaller.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:08:03 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:06:01 2011.

I'm not saying this engine will not be a success, I am wondering why Amtrak is taking a chance when a proven model is already on the road, using it's own infrastructure.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:10:12 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:07:07 2011.

You're right, which makes me wonder...at one time, units like the GG1 were the last word in electric traction. Like so many other things, we in the US let that know-how (and the chance to create a huge electric-rail system) walk right out the door.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:20:09 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:10:12 2011.

The only market for electric locomotives in the US is Amtrak, NJT and possibly MBTA, MARC and SEPTA. The latter three are not fully committed to the concept to begin with.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:23:40 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:20:09 2011.

The NEC being the only large-scale electrification in the US, that makes sense. Politically, though, people have been avoiding the question of why this is so, for decades now.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by kp5308 on Fri Jan 14 15:32:05 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:01:46 2011.

Damn, I'm getting old...

Don't start....I turn FIFTY next month!



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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 15:33:29 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:23:40 2011.

The NEC being the only large-scale electrification in the US, that makes sense. Politically, though, people have been avoiding the question of why this is so, for decades now.

Primarily because petroleum is lightly taxed in the United States, and train frequency generally hasn't been enough to warrant electrification, and because the Class 1s are loath to spend large capital funds on something that works in the long-term which ends up spooking the investors. I suspect the only way you'll see the Class Is go electric is if diesel fuel is taxed heavily and/or the feds start subsidizing the capital cost of installation. For passenger service, with the exception of CAHSR and the Florida HSR regime, I don't see anybody electrifying beyond the commuter range due to the lack of frequency of service and the ambivalence of freight rail track owners to having it installed on their trackage. I suspect ultimately this will remain the status quo until there's widespread political agreement on the need for a high quality railway network. Otherwise, electric locomotives will remain a boutique purchase left only for Amtrak and NJ Transit.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:36:10 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:23:40 2011.

Diesel power is more economical for freight operations, especially in light of the cost of electrification to begin with.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by kp5308 on Fri Jan 14 15:37:09 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 15:33:29 2011.

I suspect ultimately this will remain the status quo until there's widespread political agreement on the need for a high quality railway network.

Really? So you don't consider the US freight railroad network high quality? Please elaborate...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:38:10 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by kp5308 on Fri Jan 14 15:37:09 2011.

I think he was referring to a passenger network. Outside the Northeast, Amtrak is a tenant on freight-only owned roads. That limits what they can do.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:40:57 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 15:33:29 2011.

I agree, but there's also the example in Europe, where high-speed electric rail has actually been made competitive with air travel in the 500-mile range. If there were ever a political consensus on the need to build a HSR network here at home (a 4-hour NYC-Chicago trip, for example, could compete with flying, even though the distance traveled is more than 500 miles), and we found the economic muscle to do it, it would radically change the way Americans get from city to city. It would be all about selecting the right city pairs and weaving them into a comprehensive network, the way SNCF did 30 years ago.

Cheap oil is NOT going to be a reality of our future lives. IMHO, the time to get started on a true HSR network here, was ten years ago.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 15:46:35 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:07:07 2011.

Except for Bombardier, Europe has conquered the electric traction market.

Despite being a Canadian firm, BBD for all intents and purposes is a European player given the purchase of the AdTranz assets in 2001. I would also note that Japanese and Korean firms do have some influence in East Asian markets.

One should note that Australia has some local railway manufacturing, but it does sometimes partner with foreign firms for manufacturing. The difference is that while Australian intercity service is a complete abortion, there's enough of a market for commuter rail trains to keep the factories interested in orders. Mind you, their firms are multi-service providers that also do fleet rehabilitation, freight locomotives, and other infrastructure services. One could argue that the key to having a successful railway firm is to be diversified into other sectors and have some cross utility that one can offer with products.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:49:08 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:36:10 2011.

After the intital cost of electric infrastructure, operating expenses are less per passenger-mile than diesel operated lines. Amtrak makes good money on the NEC, where electrification drives revenue...

I can't get my head around why, in light of the fact that NEC operation has shown people like being able to jump on an electric train and go to BOS or DC at their convenience, nobody even looks at developing other US markets for electric operation. (Florida HSR notwithstanding.) One-mode, one-seat traveling (as opposed to, say, driving or taking a bus out to LGA, flying to Reagan, and driving back into DC) has great appeal with the public. NEC has made money for almost seventy years (even when the PRR was hemorrhaging money, the NEC broke even)...

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jan 14 15:50:59 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by kp5308 on Fri Jan 14 15:37:09 2011.

So you don't consider the US freight railroad network high quality?

In a "transport lots of stuff from one place to another sense", it works decently. In a "transport lots of stuff from one place to another quickly", it could do a little bit better, but intermodal works decently enough to be usable.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 16:48:21 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by MattW on Fri Jan 14 13:46:36 2011.

You know what really grinds my gears? No one's come up with a new priest and a rabbi joke in like 30 years.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 14 17:00:55 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:24:00 2011.

Bring back the E60!!!

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:53:35 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 14 17:00:55 2011.

Bring back the E60

Only if it has the GG1's wheel arrangement.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:55:30 2011, in response to Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jan 14 13:12:49 2011.

Yeah it was, but why bring back a thread dating from October of last year.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:56:23 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:27:24 2011.

The ALP-46A is supposed to be geared for 125 mph.

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 14 17:59:32 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 14 15:49:08 2011.

After the initial cost of electric infrastructure, operating expenses are less per passenger-mile than diesel operated lines

That didn't stop Conrail from de-electrifying.



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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Fri Jan 14 18:20:48 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 15:08:03 2011.

Even I, a non RR person knows it is all:

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Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design

Posted by chuchubob on Fri Jan 14 18:30:10 2011, in response to Re: Amtrak's ACS-64 design, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 14 13:25:50 2011.

I haven't seen one on the NEC anywhere in months. Even two days before Christmas, when Amtrak was really in demand.

Thanksgiving Sunday







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