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| PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery (1024138) | |
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| (1024138) | |
PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011    Regards, John S. www.ttmg.org |
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| (1024145) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Mon Jan 10 21:15:23 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. It could use a little more yellow on the nose. That and a diamond shaped logo on the nose. |
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| (1024148) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jan 10 21:33:41 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Good catch. Where is this taken?your pal, Fred |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:58:00 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Fred G on Mon Jan 10 21:33:41 2011. Worcester, MA. My uncle got these (as you can tell by the copyright, these are not my photos) in the CSX yard there this morning before they were transferred to the P&W to get some work done on it. |
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| (1024163) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Jan 10 22:47:51 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Nice :) |
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| (1024199) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by SubwayNut on Tue Jan 11 01:12:09 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Bostons becoming a bit less northeast and more modern, now I'll just wait for the Bombardier BiLevels that I doubt would fit in Bostons tunnels. The MPXpress locomotives and Bombardier Bi-Levels are what I consider the what to buy to build a modern US commuter railroad rolling stock wise, e.g. New Mexico Railrunner Express, Northstar, Sounder, FrontRunner. |
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| (1024211) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 03:05:45 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by SubwayNut on Tue Jan 11 01:12:09 2011. Modern? There is absolutely nothing modern about anything relating to these locomotives. None of the operations you describe are in anyway remotely close to achieving what might be called a worldwide best practice, and it is disturbing that anyone could describe these operational relics of the 1950s as anything other than disgraceful. |
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| (1024213) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 11 05:15:57 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 03:05:45 2011. There is absolutely nothing modern about anything relating to these locomotives.The nose looks contemporary, though I have to admit it looks like it's tacked onto an F40. |
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| (1024214) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Jan 11 05:55:32 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 11 05:15:57 2011. Dildo anyone ? |
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| (1024219) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 11 06:21:28 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 03:05:45 2011. Good point. |
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| (1024220) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 11 06:21:39 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Check your email. |
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| (1024248) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 11 08:40:57 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 03:05:45 2011. You know what they call these sorts of locomotives in the rest of the world? Yank Tanks and they are well respected because they rarely break down, when they do they are easy to fix and they last forever. The more you complicate the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain. This isn't Rocket Science, its a commuter railroad. Build something that works and has a 40 year life expectancy with little or no maintenance please.We've tried high tech German engineering before and I think I would prefer to stick with the good old EMD 645 than some piece of shit Euro-crap. |
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| (1024249) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 11 08:41:46 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Shame that the MBTA didn't just buy those instead of that new GE offering. |
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| (1024259) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Tue Jan 11 09:25:09 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Awesome catch!!! |
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| (1024381) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 11 08:40:57 2011. I will not debate the prowess our locomotive designs have demonstrated in pulling freight around the world. But the rest of the developed world doesn't bother with a 4600hp diesel commuter locomotive to begin with. If they're going to need that amount of power to pull trains that long they'll electrify and offer services on shorter headways with better schedules. Our cities are no different from theirs, indeed our requirements are that much more extreme, yet our definition of commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset which makes them virtually useless when compared to other networks. The only system here in the US with a plan that even begins to approach worldwide best practices is Caltrain, and then that is highly dependent upon other projects. |
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| (1024387) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:59:48 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 11 05:15:57 2011. My beef isn't with the aesthetics, which I believe you are remarkably accurate in describing, but rather with the outmoded framework which the MBTA commuter rail operates within. They've blown billions of dollars on subway extensions parallel to extant commuter lines, frequently to the detriment of the commuter rail system. Those same service improvements could easily have been had for far less money by improving the commuter rail infrastructure. We have little funding available for mass transit improvements, but in Boston and many places around the country that limited amount of money is squandered with profligate abandon on unnecessarily expensive modes while leaving other modes so underinvested they are virtually useless. |
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| (1024393) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:25 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011. Stop equating the words European and best. Europe flushing billions of euros on massive rail networks that only drain increasing hard to find capital. |
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| (1024394) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:41 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011. Stop equating the words European and best. Europe flushes billions of euros on massive rail networks that only drain increasing hard to find capital. |
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| (1024396) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Jan 11 15:14:14 2011, in response to PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by 9 local on Mon Jan 10 21:03:41 2011. Gosh that's a popular locomotive these days. Did they update that scheme? |
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| (1024397) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 11 15:22:23 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:41 2011. Truth. They throw away lots of their trains before they're 20 years old and have the nerve to call them "life-expired". |
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| (1024398) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 11 15:23:06 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Jan 11 15:14:14 2011. that's a popular locomotive these daysIt's about the only game in town these days. |
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| (1024399) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 15:26:29 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:41 2011. Stop equating the words European and best.European? What about Japan, Australia, Brazil, and Argentina? All of them use electrified commuter rail networks to greatly improve their effectiveness by blurring the line between subway and commuter rail operation. Europe flushes billions of euros on massive rail networks that only drain increasing hard to find capital. And we flush even more money down the toilet on our massive highway network. Except that while their massive rail networks result in some of the lowest expenditures on transportation and services as a fraction of household income, our household expenditure on transportation is the greatest in the developed world. Not only does our government spend FAR more on our highway networks, but our citizens then have to spend that much more money to simply utilize those networks. Meanwhile what spending does go into mass transit is wasted ineffectually on redundant subway extensions and commuter systems whose operating practices have not changed in 40 years. We spend a tremendous amount of money on transportation and get virtually nothing for our investment. If that isn't the very definition of flushing money away, then what would you call it? |
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| (1024400) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Jan 11 15:26:42 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 11 15:23:06 2011. Oh wow, I didn't realize that. Makes sense, then! |
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| (1024402) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jan 11 15:28:47 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:41 2011. AmeriKa's washed up thanks to you GOPers > The future is in Europe and China. |
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| (1024403) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jan 11 15:29:51 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 11 15:22:23 2011. LOL @ Deniers. Truthers know the TRUTH. |
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| (1024404) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jan 11 15:31:40 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 15:26:29 2011. The sooner AmeriKa collapses the better. We can start over, ban the "right" and have a better country. |
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| (1024409) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jan 11 15:38:36 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:59:48 2011. Annual MBTA commuter rail ridership has increased by 518 percent from 1976 to 2008. Billions have been spent by the MBTA to build the Old Colony Lines, the Worcester extension and the Newburyport extension, rebuild the three downtown terminals and upgrade the existing lines and the rolling stock fleet. There have been opportunities missed and areas remain to be improved, but relatively speaking the system has hardly been ignored. |
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| (1024417) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 15:58:52 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jan 11 15:38:36 2011. Exactly my point. We spend inordinate sums of money extending commuter rail off into the exurbs while completely neglecting its potential role in inner city transportation. Boston is a perfect example, with their elimination of the Washington St. el and its 'replacement' with the Southwest Corridor, or the extension of the Red Line to Braintree over the Old Colony lines. In both cases superior service could easily have been provided by electrified commuter rail extending to at least the terminals provided by the subway lines. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 17:46:33 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 15:58:52 2011. In both cases superior service could easily have been provided by electrified commuter rail extending to at least the terminals provided by the subway lines.Wank |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 17:51:38 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 03:05:45 2011. Modern? There is absolutely nothing modern about anything relating to these locomotives. None of the operations you describe are in anyway remotely close to achieving what might be called a worldwide best practice, and it is disturbing that anyone could describe these operational relics of the 1950s as anything other than disgraceful.WillD, I don't like calling anyone an idiot in public, but, come on now, REALLY? You know better, don't you? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 18:10:27 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 17:51:38 2011. All of the supposedly modern commuter rail lines Mr. Nut listed move a tiny fraction of the customers conveyed by the systems in Paris, London, Berlin, Tokyo, and even Sydney and do so at a cost per passenger greater than those networks. I would rather we take our cues from systems with a demonstrated capability to move a large number of people than in systems with their operations rooted in completely outmoded thinking and utterly ineffectual at moving people effectively. |
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| (1024457) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 18:28:04 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 17:46:33 2011. The extreme distance between stations, especially on the Red Line to Braintree, means that a commuter rail EMU capable of higher speeds would likely maintain the same schedule south of JFK-UMass even if it accelerated slower than the Red Line stock. And of course it'd be much simpler to get the Old Colony lines operating with three or four tracks available, rather than the single track left over once the Red Line was finished consuming the commuter line's ROW. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jan 11 18:31:28 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 15:26:29 2011. Chris R hates advanced rail technology because such systems shut out the GOP/big Oil/ Al Qaeda troika. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Jan 11 18:44:27 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Jan 11 05:55:32 2011. No thanks, but I'll have some more coffee.your pal, Fred |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 19:08:28 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 18:10:27 2011. All of the supposedly modern commuter rail lines Mr. Nut listed move a tiny fraction of the customers conveyed by the systems in Paris, London, Berlin, Tokyo, and even Sydney and do so at a cost per passenger greater than those networks. I would rather we take our cues from systems with a demonstrated capability to move a large number of people than in systems with their operations rooted in completely outmoded thinking and utterly ineffectual at moving people effectively.I just fail to see what relevance the experience in those European and Asian cities have in Boston. Boston, for the most part, has densities that are too low to justify European or Asian style commuter rail, and the "good" lines have already been converted to rail rapid transit. (The Malden service of the former Boston & Maine was one of the strongest commuter rail markets on the North side). Moving a large number of people at low costs just isn't that helpful if the people aren't there to be moved... There's some capacity issues on the South side, and I think MBTA's response to them (buying double deckers, increasing train lengths, and train frequencies to a lesser extent) is completely appropriate for the kind of demand that's there to be served. Perhaps there is a case for using either electric locomotives or MUs on the Providence service, but for the most part that problem is institutional. So long as train paths remain plentiful (and they are, relatively speaking), then no sea-change of the type you're talking about is necessary... yet. Just my opinion, but of course there will come a time (I hope) when a higher density service would be justified. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 19:12:56 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 18:28:04 2011. The extreme distance between stations, especially on the Red Line to Braintree, means that a commuter rail EMU capable of higher speeds would likely maintain the same schedule south of JFK-UMass even if it accelerated slower than the Red Line stock. And of course it'd be much simpler to get the Old Colony lines operating with three or four tracks available, rather than the single track left over once the Red Line was finished consuming the commuter line's ROW.It is well known that the problem there was that MBTA had full expectation that commuter rail would die and therefore wanted to put down as much rail rapid tracks as possible while Federal money was available back in those days. In the 1960s-1980s, the fashion was to convert failing commuter rail lines to modern rapid transit systems. That wasn't a bad bet back then. It probably still isn't a bad bet now. The real issue here is that we have Federal laws prohibiting track sharing between rail rapid transit and commuter rail. But even that's changing. The Red Line consuming valuable track space isn't as big a problem now as it was in the pre-Chatworth pre-PTC world. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 23:05:37 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 19:08:28 2011. That makes sense. And of course I am arguing "would have, could have, should have" instead of what actually transpired. Going with Arrow I cars in the early 1970s instead of the Red Line extension and the Orange line relocations would have allowed the MBTA to continue serving Everett, Dudley Square and other locations away from their commuter network while improving service through the areas now along the relocated subway lines with electric commuter service.Of course today you're absolutely right, we're stuck. The MBTA passed the buck on restoring rail to Washington St, and nothing is going toward Everett anytime in the near future. It's kind of SEPTA in reverse, with the commuter rail system being sacrificed for the sake of subway construction. I can't quite figure out which one came out the worse for their efforts. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 11 23:40:30 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011. What part of austerity don't you understand? |
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| (1024556) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Tue Jan 11 23:50:06 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 23:05:37 2011. Going with Arrow I cars in the early 1970s instead of the Red Line extension and the Orange line relocations would have allowed the MBTA to continue serving Everett, Dudley Square and other locations away from their commuter network while improving service through the areas now along the relocated subway lines with electric commuter service.Disagree. The Everett and Dudley lines were doomed for reasons that had nothing to do with commuter rail (and just in case you misunderstood, the reasons had nothing to do with the structural integrity of the elevateds either; that was the stated reason of record). Regardless, the Everett and Dudley lines were lost; it was a sign of the times. Personally I am glad that something did come of the sacrifice, namely the Southwest Corridor and the Malden extension, instead of more highways. To suggest that had those lines been preserved the commuter rail lines could/would have been electrified is to say that Gandhi could have prevented World War II. It's not like New York were immuine to such abandonments. The 3rd Ave el was lost, as was parts of the Lexington Ave, Myrtle, and Jamaica els in Brooklyn and Queens. The MBTA passed the buck on restoring rail to Washington St, No, the MBTA provided a replacement Bus Rapid Transit service. The majority of stakeholders when the modal decision was made did not want the restoration of a rail service. With the Southwest Corridor where it is, the transit needs of that area is well served. |
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| (1024558) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:01:06 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011. But the rest of the developed world doesn't bother with a 4600hp diesel commuter locomotive to begin with. If they're going to need that amount of power to pull trains that long they'll electrify and offer services on shorter headways with better schedules.What makes you think electrified services have better headways or have more power for that matter? Electrified services are more economical when applied to high density corridors, yes. If you electrify a service that isn't high density, then you basically just end up paying more for infrastructure and have it rust away. The decision to electrify on a passenger railroad have very little to do with required power and/or tractive effort. Our cities are no different from theirs, indeed our requirements are that much more extreme, yet our definition of commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset which makes them virtually useless when compared to other networks. Since you are so convinced that the U.S. commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset, why don't you point out a specific feature on a typical commuter rail system (any system) that has not changed since the 1950s? I can't think of any and I have some experience in this area. Do you know what they were using in the 1950s? Budd cars and FL-3's, right? Position lights with basic CTC (traffic levers, etc.) right? Power frequency cab signals driven by Vane relays right? Which commuter rail system do you know of that's buying this stuff today? |
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| (1024559) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:01:08 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 14:50:35 2011. But the rest of the developed world doesn't bother with a 4600hp diesel commuter locomotive to begin with. If they're going to need that amount of power to pull trains that long they'll electrify and offer services on shorter headways with better schedules.What makes you think electrified services have better headways or have more power for that matter? Electrified services are more economical when applied to high density corridors, yes. If you electrify a service that isn't high density, then you basically just end up paying more for infrastructure and have it rust away. The decision to electrify on a passenger railroad have very little to do with required power and/or tractive effort. Our cities are no different from theirs, indeed our requirements are that much more extreme, yet our definition of commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset which makes them virtually useless when compared to other networks. Since you are so convinced that the U.S. commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset, why don't you point out a specific feature on a typical commuter rail system (any system) that has not changed since the 1950s? I can't think of any and I have some experience in this area. Do you know what they were using in the 1950s? Budd cars and FL-3's, right? Position lights with basic CTC (traffic levers, etc.) right? Power frequency cab signals driven by Vane relays right? Which commuter rail system do you know of that's buying this stuff today? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Jan 12 00:06:06 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 11 23:40:30 2011. The part where we haven't done a damn thing toward austerity. There's plenty of fake austerity, but that means absolutely nothing. It's just a buzzword to scare the populace into allowing the right to shove its business-as-usual redistribution of wealth down our throats. Austerity only comes up when something like mass transit or other economically sustainable solutions are brought up. Meanwhile they've done nothing to curb spending to their special interest groups. As a result it is utterly ludicrous to voluntarily give up on the creation of economically viable mass transit systems when every other special interest in this country still has the syringe full of government money, the needle in its arm and is praying for an uncollapsed vein.And of course expanding mass transportation is the sort of undertaking which will both help to employ people to get us out of this depression and will help to insulate our economy against the influence of oil prices. As a result the expansion of mass transit should easily trump your and the Republicans' shortsighted, small minded concerns over the budget deficits they are responsible for. |
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| (1024562) | |
Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:15:27 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Wed Jan 12 00:06:06 2011. Austerity only comes up when something like mass transit or other economically sustainable solutions are brought up.Do you have any PROFF that mass transit is an economically (or ecological, for that matter) sustainable solution? As a result it is utterly ludicrous to voluntarily give up on the creation of economically viable mass transit systems I've spent a lot of time reading about the reform and privatization of Japanese National Railways lately. What they did circa 1970~1990 is what needs to be done to create an "economically viable" mass transit system. It's really ugly. And I think personally I would hate to have that kind of thing happen here. You should read more about it. Here's one book that kind of gives a good overview: Japanese National Railways Its Break-up and Privatization by Yoshiyuki Kasai E-mail me your land address and I will have one mailed to you. And of course expanding mass transportation is the sort of undertaking which will both help to employ people to get us out of this depression Not really true. Most economists agree that infrastructure spending does very little to curb short-term unemployment compared to investment in other sectors. This is not to say we shouldn't invest in mass transit, but that investment in mass transit isn't really a good economic stimulus tool if that is your goal. aem7ac |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jan 12 00:20:08 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Tue Jan 11 23:05:37 2011. What are the financial demographics of the areas surrounding the Orange and Red lines? |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 12 00:26:34 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jan 11 15:05:41 2011. Stop equating the words European and best.As somebody who has used a European system, I'm nearly tempted to say that European can sometimes be an excellent proxy for "best practices". Europe flushes billions of euros on massive rail networks that only drain increasing hard to find capital. They spend lots of money on transportation because it's critical to economic growth to provide mobility to the population. You simply can't move large numbers of people without spending huge chunks of money. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Jan 12 00:31:19 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:01:06 2011. What makes you think electrified services have better headways or have more power for that matter? Electrified services are more economical when applied to high density corridors, yes. If you electrify a service that isn't high density, then you basically just end up paying more for infrastructure and have it rust away. The decision to electrify on a passenger railroad have very little to do with required power and/or tractive effort.It is difficult to find a commuter line in Europe or Japan whose operation is comparable to the MBTA. There are plenty of cities of the same size, and they aren't all that much greater in density than Boston or its environs. In fact the Boston Metropolitan area and the Frankfurt Rhine-Main metro area are remarkably similar in terms of population, area, and density, as well as distribution into urban sub-centers. But those systems in Europe and Japan all operate electrified commuter rail systems. In particular the Frankfurt system has been wildly successful, despite being quite similar to Boston's demographics. Thus I would argue the 'low density' argument simply holds no water. Either our standards are too high to implement improvements and thus we never take advantage of the induced demand which electrification can bring with it, or Americans are just 'differnt' and won't use mass transit. IMHO it seems extremely unlikely that Americans have some unspoken taboo against mass transit, and its more a case of our offering a thoroughly unattractive modal choice between traffic or a poorly thought through transit system. Since you are so convinced that the U.S. commuter rail is locked into a 1950s mindset, why don't you point out a specific feature on a typical commuter rail system (any system) that has not changed since the 1950s? I can't think of any and I have some experience in this area. Do you know what they were using in the 1950s? Budd cars and FL-3's, right? Position lights with basic CTC (traffic levers, etc.) right? Power frequency cab signals driven by Vane relays right? Which commuter rail system do you know of that's buying this stuff today? I do not mean the equipment is in any way rooted in the 1950s, I mean that the operational concept, the theoretical framework within which the commuter rail's role within our cities, is outdated and fundamentally flawed. Jobs have migrated out of the urban cores, into the suburbs, and our commuter railroads have remained firmly fixed in their focus on serving those city centers. There are some dense sub-centers which could be effectively served by commuter rail. Similarly, Boston's wanton expansion of their subway lines into the inner suburbs illustrates that there is or was demand in the suburb to city commute market which the commuter railroads were not meeting. Unfortunately the problem was rectified in a manner that strangles future commuter rail growth. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:33:03 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 12 00:26:34 2011. As somebody who has used a European system, I'm nearly tempted to say that European can sometimes be an excellent proxy for "best practices".As somebody who has used many European systems, many North American systems, and many Asian systems, I'm saying that European systems sometimes have industry "best practices", North American systems sometimes have industry "best practices", and Asian systems sometimes have industry "best practices". That's what "best practices" means, isn't it? Everyone has something that everyone else can learn from. They spend lots of money on transportation because it's critical to economic growth to provide mobility to the population. I've never seen that proven. Do you have PROFF? aem7ac |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:50:20 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by WillD on Wed Jan 12 00:31:19 2011. It is difficult to find a commuter line in Europe or Japan whose operation is comparable to the MBTA.What do you mean by comparable? If you mean locomotive-hauled diesel operation with cab cars, I used to work on one. Edinburgh-Glasgow was loco-hauled with cab cars until the mid-1990s. If you mean today, in 2011, I will tell you that in Taiwan, the Southern Link commuter line serving Kaohsiung-Pingtung in Southern Taiwan is still locomotive hauled:  Granted, Kaohsiung doesn't have the density or the population of many Asian cities, but it is the size of Boston (metro pop = 2.8 mil). The line from the South is the weakest of the commuter rail lines. But it's still diesel hauled, because diesel is the appropriate technology for a line with such low demand density. There are plenty of cities of the same size, and they aren't all that much greater in density than Boston or its environs. Population density is a very misleading statistic. It's particularly bad for making large metro-area type comparisons because it fails to capture how the population is distributed within the metro. I call you bluff -- I don't believe you've actually looked at how Frankfurt population is distributed within the metro, and how Boston population is distributed within the metro. They may have similar pop density as a metro, but the degree of clustering around "Squares" (if you're a Bostonite) and "Circles" are likely different. If you've done the work, then post some population density maps like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_density_map_of_Kaohsiung_(Dec_2009).svg I do not mean the equipment is in any way rooted in the 1950s, I mean that the operational concept, the theoretical framework within which the commuter rail's role within our cities, is outdated and fundamentally flawed. Jobs have migrated out of the urban cores, into the suburbs, and our commuter railroads have remained firmly fixed in their focus on serving those city centers. I think your thinking and/or information is outdated. Beginning in the 1960s, Boston & Maine railroad promoted a little-known station called "Mishawum" that eventually was replaced by the Anderson RTC. Even today, several trains call at the old Mishawum station to serve reverse-commute and exurb-to-suburb commuters due to passenger markets that were developed back then. At around the same time, the Route 128 station was added on the south side, and transit-oriented development sprung up in the vicinity of that station. Whether reverse-commuting was happening is a matter of debate; if it happened it wasn't in huge numbers, but not because the service isn't geared for it: B&M continues to host at one reverse commuter train on the Haverhill Line, and in fact the Lowell Line has fairly good off-peak and reverse-direction service. Looking further south, Metro-North saw for the first time that their non-GCT traffic grew to more than 50% of total traffic last year, thanks to both reverse commute trips and growth of suburban centers like Stamford, Yonkers, and 125 Street. If you think commuter rail doesn't serve suburban or reverse-commute markets, you've not been keeping up with what the commuter railroads have been doing in the past 30 years. |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 12 00:54:39 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 00:33:03 2011. North American systems sometimes have industry "best practices"To me, I'm sitting in what's arguably the "best" transit region of the country, and I find the network to be somewhat hobbled by the best practices of North American rail transport. I'm stuck with a 2 tph off peak railway with no transfers to an other mode, and an intercity line that with improvements still isn't beating door to door times with no traffic. My older brother is stuck playing triplicate fares because agencies like to treat each other like red-headed stepchildren, and my cousin ends up taking a long bus ride to a long subway line because the local commuter rail line has crap headways at high fares. In Germany, I'd have a frequent service rail line near me that reduces the opportunity costs of going to the core, my older brother would have a simplified and lower tariff for his commuting costs, and my cousin would simply walk to the railway station. And some of my Amtrak trips would finally beat door to door driving times... |
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Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery |
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Posted by aem7ac on Wed Jan 12 01:00:37 2011, in response to Re: PHOTOS: MBTA MPXpress Locomotive #010 In Delivery, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 12 00:54:39 2011. To me, I'm sitting in what's arguably the "best" transit region of the country, and I find the network to be somewhat hobbled by the best practices of North American rail transport.I think it is important for you to separate the concepts of "convenient system for you" versus "industry best practice". Industry best practice includes many things like how you can derive the most benefits with the least amount of resources, how you can make a system easy to understand to everybody, how you can allow meaningful participation by everyone including the mobility impaired, and how you can get away with as little maintenance as possible without causing safety problems or asset degradation, etc. These are sometimes conflicting goals and therefore each one would have a different "best" practice when it comes to how things can be accomplished. As for "convenient system for you", maybe it really is industry best practice to have a system that isn't so convenient because maybe many people still use the system and pay the fares even though you think the service is crap. I'd say the railroad is doing a great job if that were the case. One reasonable goal for a transit system is to keep the costs low while still serving the majority of potential demand. Of course, what consitutes realistic potential demand is a matter of debate. aem7ac |
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