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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jul 3 16:33:43 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 3 16:08:25 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Shall we chip in for air fare for Olog?

Steve Martin already produced a training film for him ...



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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military

Posted by kew gardens teleport on Wed Jul 3 18:08:34 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 3 16:08:25 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
King Fuad II is still alive.

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Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by kew gardens teleport on Wed Jul 3 18:13:07 2013, in response to Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:51:30 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Some of the people here who said democracy would be good for Egypt were dismayed when the Brotherhood won the elections a year ago in a free election, and now want to see the democratically elected government thrown out because they don't agree with it. That doesn't sound like democracy to me.

Similarly, a lot of people who would usually condone Islamist totalitarianism, violence, oppression, and terrorism are all in favor of democracy tonight. It's a funny old world.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military

Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jul 3 19:36:42 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 3 15:20:10 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm sorry to tell all these sad reporters and the sad administration, but this has nothing to do with Islam or against the Brotherhood. Egypt is historically a nation that loves to strike for working conditions. Crime and poverty increased, electricity decreased. The leader is ousted and will be ousted until folks think they're paychecks are fair. Which hasn't been the case in generations.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 3 20:08:59 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by kew gardens teleport on Wed Jul 3 18:08:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Put him back on the throne but call him a Pharaoh.

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Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 05:01:53 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Lest anyone think that the majority of Egyptians have suddenly turned secular liberal, think again. They want to attack Israel and are angry at Morsi for not having done so. (BTW, the new Wafd Party is Nasserist, i.e. National Socialist, not "liberal".)

Yedioth Ahronoth

Egyptians believe Morsi in cahoots with US, Israel

In Cairo's cafés, not on Facebook, different tune is sung: People less concerned with liberal revolution, more with perceived 'Zionist' meddling in Egyptian affairs. Word on street is US, Israel, Hamas, Brotherhood in cahoots to form alternative Palestinian state in Sinai. Ynet's Cairo correspondent reports from Cairo's coffee parlors

Eldad Beck | Published: 07.06.13, 09:32
In Cairo's narrow, dusty, hot alleyways, Friday noon prayers sounded from everywhere. In nearly every corner lurks an historic mosque, slowly filling with the residents of neighboring streets.

However, most of the small shops and poor coffee parlors remain open. Their owners rather try and make a few extra liras than fulfill their religious obligations.

The population in Cairo's old city is mostly destitute, and during the Muslim Brotherhood regime their situation only worsened. On the walls one can still notice the scraps of election posters for the Brotherhood's candidate, Mohamed Morsi. A year ago, he was widely supported here.

He was considered a savior, and many hoped he would bring change to this quarter of Cairo. But over recent weeks, unseen hands have torn these posters away to erase any memory of the neighborhood's allegiance to the deposed president. Instead, "Wanted" posters by the opposition's Tamarod movement where posted, carrying an image of Morsi behind bars, reading: "Broke out of jail; wanted by the law."

Glory soon fades. Now, the closely stacked houses and precarious balconies are hung with photos of the hero-of-the-hour, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the chief of staff, who announced the Muslim Brotherhood ouster.

Old Cairo's coffee parlors remain a meeting point for the neighborhood, where newspapers are read, hot beverages drank, cigarettes and shishas are smoked and politics discussed.

This is where the people's voice is heard, not of the Facebook sophisticates or the protesters in the squares, who change sides according to circumstance.

And here rage against the US reigns, against Obama and the American administration, for what the Egyptian people perceive as the US support for the Islamists "reign of terror."

I join one such conversation, in a corner coffee parlor, above which an Egyptian flag proudly waves. "The Americans are threatening to cut the aid if our army doesn't do what they want? Let them," announced the owner to his customers.

"It's better to seal a deal with China and get all we need. Money for development; arms. America is finished anyway. How do they allow themselves to object to the will of the Egyptian people? The Egyptian people decide their own fate, not Washington. Obama wants to have the Muslim Brotherhood rule over all the Middle East."

Egypt crushed Zionist lobby

"What's the American interest to support the Muslim Brotherhood?" I asked. "Look," explained one distinguished, older gentleman. "The West says one thing and does another. The Americans and Europeans speak so highly for democracy, freedom and human rights, but in the Middle East they support the most autocratic regimes, which object to all these principles.

"The Americans have three main interests in the area: Defending Israel, the oil in the Persian Gulf and control over the Suez Canal. They'll do everything to maintain these interests, and therefore are in favor of the status-quo. Mubarak guaranteed Israel's security. Morsi did nothing against Israel. Instead, he let Palestinians move from the Gaza Strip to Sinai. So we deposed him."

"For 63 years, the Palestinian issue has been the center of all of the Mideast's problems," another man interrupts. "Does it make sense that for so long, no solution has been found? The Americans don't want it solved; it serves their interests and promises their control over the region.

"They destroyed the Iraqi army. They are now destroying the Syrian army and next they will destroy the Egyptian army. In the meantime, certain countries are being armed to the teeth. For what? All this will not play out well for either the Americans or Israel."

Another man at the café shows me the newspaper he is reading: "Here is the proof that the Americans and Israelis are behind the Muslim Brotherhood," he said pointing to a headline that read "Israel regrets Morsi's ouster," and underneath, in small letters, the analysis is attributed to an op-ed published in the Haaretz paper, explaining why Morsi is "good for Israel."


The article was quoted in nearly all of Egypt's paper's Friday as proof of Israel antagonistic position in regards to Egypt and its secret pact with Morsi and the Brotherhood in a bid to dominate the area.

Zionist, American, Brotherhood pact

The daily paper El Dostor, which is closely affiliated with the liberal opposition Wafd party, has conducted a fierce battle against the Muslim Brotherhood's regime. It took its battle one step further and its headline read: "Egypt has crushed the Zionist, American and Muslim Brotherhood's lobby with the ouster of Morsi."

According the lively imagination of the paper's editors, the three groups were in cahoots in a bid to bring about a division in Egypt, allow radicals to take over Sinai and use such a situation to justify an Israeli reoccupation of the peninsula, where an alternative Palestinian homeland would be formed.

No small number of the Egyptians I spoke with echoed these narratives, as well as the claim that the Brotherhood allowed Hamas free access to Sinai so they could take over the Egyptian territory.

While Cairo saw members of the two political camps clash violently, Sinai saw the beginning of a military campaign to restore Egyptian sovereignty in the peninsula. After jihadist launched a series of organized attacks on military bases in the El Arish region, resulting in the death of one soldier, the army announced it is sending reinforcements and raising the local forces' level of preparedness.


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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL)

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 09:59:12 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 05:01:53 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
If you read the article, you'll see they spoke with three people.

If there were 4 or 5 people there, then there's your majority.

I'll bet you are proud of your post.

LOL

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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL)

Posted by AlM on Sat Jul 6 10:03:53 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL), posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 09:59:12 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
He's very proud of his posts. His ongoing struggle to get Americans realize that all Muslims are militant Islamists is a sacred cause.



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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL)

Posted by Railman718 on Sat Jul 6 10:09:10 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL), posted by AlM on Sat Jul 6 10:03:53 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
His ongoing struggle to get Americans realize that all Muslims are militant Islamists is a sacred cause.

That is why he hides in his bunker...

I wonder if he can even tell what a(Without the dress wear) Muslim Looks like?




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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL)

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 10:25:02 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL), posted by Railman718 on Sat Jul 6 10:09:10 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Whether he can or not he'll swear up and down that he can.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 10:37:12 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL), posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 09:59:12 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Nice bit of bullshit. Care to try again? Or are you waiting for the next bit of talking points out of Media Matters as usual?

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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 10:38:00 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough (LOL), posted by AlM on Sat Jul 6 10:03:53 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Lying does not help you. Even in jest.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Jul 6 10:38:55 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 10:38:00 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
shoot yourself, Khristian.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 10:51:40 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 10:37:12 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Have the person who read the article to you read that part where they quote those 3 people again. Maybe a 3rd time :)

your pal,
Fred

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Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei to take over as unelected PM

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 13:53:38 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Back in 2011, he threatened to attack Israel if he became PM. Guess that's a sign of being "liberal", ain't it. (And didn't the liberal media claim that Morsi was no longer in the Muslim Brotherhood back before the elections?)

BBC News

6 July 2013 | Last updated at 13:34 ET

El-Baradei to become Egyptian PM

Leading liberal Egyptian politician Mohamed El-Baradei is to be named prime minister of a new caretaker government, his supporters say.

Mena state news agency says he met interim President Adly Mahmud Mansour, three days after the army removed Islamist leader Mohammed Morsi amid growing nationwide unrest.

The move has in turn triggered mass unrest by supporters of Mr. Morsi.

Mr. El-Baradei is a former head of the UN nuclear watchdog.

He and other party leaders attended a meeting called by Mr. Mansour on Saturday.

Mr. El-Baradei leads an alliance of liberal and left-wing parties, the National Salvation Front.

A spokesman for the front told AP news agency that Mr. Mansour would swear him in as prime minister on Saturday evening.

In a BBC interview on Thursday, Mr. El-Baradei defended the army's intervention, saying: "We were between a rock and a hard place."

"It is a painful measure; nobody wanted that," he said. "But Mr. Morsi unfortunately undermined his own legitimacy by declaring himself a few months ago as a pharaoh and then we got into a fist fight, and not a democratic process."

More than 30 people died and hundreds were wounded in Friday's protests by Islamist supporters of the deposed president.

Huge crowds have demonstrated again in Cairo on Saturday to demand his reinstatement.

Meanwhile, opponents of Mr. Morsi have called for demonstrations against the Muslim Brotherhood, to which he belongs, on Sunday. He is in detention along with some senior Brotherhood figures.


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Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 13:55:17 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Egyptians now believe Morsi was another Mubarak and not extreme enough, posted by RockParkMan on Sat Jul 6 10:38:55 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
What for, rocKKKparKKKterroristloverNazi? Still upset over the fact that Egypt is still majority terrorist?

The military just appointed a man who threatened to attack Israel as the prime minister of a "caretaker" government. This is what is called "liberal" in Egypt.

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Egypt revolts: Coptic priest, five policemen murdered in Northern Sinai

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 14:05:13 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yedioth Ahronoth

Coptic priest shot dead in Egypt attack

Sectarian conflict escalates as al-Qaeda slams Muslim Brotherhood; Brotherhood turns its wrath at Copts. Sources believe Islamist insurgents responsible for killing Coptic Christian priest Saturday

Roi Kais | Published: 07.06.13, 17:25
Gunmen shot dead a Coptic Christian priest in Egypt's lawless Northern Sinai on Saturday in what could be the first sectarian attack since the military overthrow of Islamist President Mohamed Morsi, security sources said.

The priest, Mina Aboud Sharween, was attacked in the early afternoon while walking in the Masaeed area in El Arish.

The shooting in the coastal city was one of several attacks believed to be by Islamist insurgents that included firing at four military checkpoints in the region, the sources said.

Saturday's attacks on checkpoints took place in al-Mahajer and al-Safaa in Rafah, as well as Sheikh Zuwaid and al-Kharouba.

The violence follows attacks in which five police offers were killed in El Arish on Friday.

Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood has fiercely criticized Coptic Pope Tawadros, spiritual leader of Egypt's 8 million Christians, for giving his blessing to the removal of the president and attending the announcement by armed forces commander General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi suspending the constitution.

The Brotherhood has also been slammed, however, by the militant Islamist organization al-Qaeda, as the group's leader, Ayman Zawahiri, said that "many senior Islamists… forget their ideology, their way of behavior and their history. The Islamists should have revolted against them, but in the end they surrendered to the secularists and gave up their identity."

In a video posted on the website of the world's number one Sunni terrorist organization, Zawahiri insisted that the "battle in Egypt is far from over, it has only just begun. The revolution in Egypt must continue and the responsibility is on the Islamic nation to give more martyrs."

Zawahiri further claimed that "the Islamists were mistaken when they set up different, independent Islamic parties; failing to come together under one single party, based on the Islamic sharia law."

He reiterated his position that "the fault line in the Egyptian battle is clearly drawn between the secularist — who are allied with the (Coptic) church and support the army through a pact that was created by Mubarak and the US — and on the other hand the Egyptian Islamists."

In Zawahiri's opinion, the Egyptian judiciary is just as guilty as the country's army: "The army has given the judiciary a false legitimacy. The Constitutional High Court is a despicable secular court room run by thieves and wolves."

Lawless Sinai

Early Saturday, a new radical group emerged. The group calls itself Ansar Al Sharia in Egypt and in a statement published Saturday the group requested Muslims come together, gather their arms and begin training in a bid to deter the "aggressors" who deposed Morsi and "allow for the implementation of the sharia" in Egypt.

Israel is monitoring developments in Egypt, specifically in Sinai, fearing potential spillover of the fighting into Israeli territory.

On Friday, the Jamaat Ansar Bayt Al-Maqdis group, which operates in the Sinai Peninsula, took responsibility for the alleged launch of two Grad missiles at Eilat on Thursday. The group posted an online statement saying: "Things in Egypt, in which the Jews are involved, will not stop Jihad."

Egypt's Interim President Adli Mansour called representatives of the country's political factions Saturday, to discuss the new government and the identity of its leader. According to Al-Jazeera, the Muslim Brotherhood party refused to attend the meeting.


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Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei to take over as unelected PM

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 6 17:29:50 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei to take over as unelected PM, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 13:53:38 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe you can go over there and campaign for them to elect Pat Robertson or someone more appropriate for a Muslim nation.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei NOT to take over as unelected PM

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 20:05:45 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei to take over as unelected PM, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 13:53:38 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Link

Sorry, Olog

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei NOT to take over as unelected PM

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 6 20:28:00 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei NOT to take over as unelected PM, posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 20:05:45 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I was going to post the Reuters story earlier, but what's the point?

Seems as though El-Baradei wasn't well-liked by the Islamic "Nour" party because he's not Islamic enough to suit them. So I guess Olog's right, he's too librul. :-\

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Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei maybe, maybe not to take over as unelected PM

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 6 23:16:45 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Mohamed El-Baradei NOT to take over as unelected PM, posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 6 20:05:45 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The Manchester Guardian has a later word than the AP story. Conflicting reports.

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Egypt revolts: New unelected PM to appointe Muslim Brotherhood, Nour Party to ministerial positions

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 9 18:13:46 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
And it looks like el-Baradei got the position of deputy PM.

France 24

Egypt’s PM to offer Muslim Brotherhood ministerial posts

Egypt’s newly appointed interim Prime Minister Hazem el-Beblawi is to offer ministerial posts to members of the Freedom and Justice Party, the Muslim Brotherhood’s political wing, and to the Islamist Nour Party, state media said Tuesday.

France 24 with wires
Latest update: 07/09/2013
Egypt’s newly appointed interim prime minister Hazem el-Beblawi is to offer ministerial posts to members of the Muslim Brotherhood and to the hardline Islamist Nour Party, state media said on Tuesday.

"There is no objection at all to including members of those two parties in the government," a presidential spokesman said.

The announcement followed el-Beblawi’s appointment as prime minister in a transitional government, as the authorities sought to steer the country to new parliamentary and presidential elections.

Adli Mansour, acting head of state since massive demonstrations ousted Islamist president Mohammed Morsi out of office last week, also appointed former UN nuclear agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei as deputy president, responsible for foreign affairs, subject to approval from Egypt's political parties.

The hardline Islamist Nour Party, which has held up the political process by objecting to several candidates put forward by military-backed interim authorities, has said it does not object to el-Beblawi's nomination, but was unhappy about the nomination of ElBaradei.

Légion d’honneur

El-Beblawi, who is in his 70s, served as finance minister in one of the first cabinets formed after the 2011 uprising forced Hosni Mubarak from power and the military stepped in to rule.

He resigned in protest in October 2011 after 26 protesters, mostly Christians, were killed by troops and security forces in a crackdown on their march.

He is one of the founders of the Egyptian Social Democratic party, one of several secular parties in the liberal grouping National Salvation Front.

The Front had backed youth activists who drove the massive protests by millions of Egyptians last week demanding Morsi's removal, leading to the military's ousting of the country's first democratically elected president.

El-Beblawi was educated in Cairo and subsequently in Grenoble in south-eastern France and Paris, where he gained his Ph.D in Economics. France awarded him the prestigious “Légion d’honneur” for his work.


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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 13 18:55:24 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Someone went out on the wrong limb.

Reuters

Rows over Egypt's constitutional decree signal hurdles ahead

By Shadia Nasralla
Tue Jul 9, 2013 4:59pm EDT
CAIRO (Reuters) — Egypt's main political players raised objections on Tuesday to a new constitutional decree, highlighting challenges the military-backed transitional administration might face in reaching consensus to end the crisis and hold new elections.

According to the decree, issued late on Monday, Egypt could see a parliamentary vote in about six months, and a presidential election would be called once the new legislature was convened.

It is the centerpiece of interim authorities' efforts to drag Egypt out of crisis, after the military ousted elected President Mohamed Mursi last week and suspended the constitution.

In what appeared to be a gesture to Islamist parties, the decree included some of the controversial language put into the constitution last year by Islamists and which defined the principles of sharia.

Liberals and Christians had opposed the article as one of several that gave the text an Islamist tone.


Unsurprisingly, Mursi's Muslim Brotherhood movement, which refuses to take part in the political process and demands the deposed leader be reinstalled, flatly rejected the decree.

Abdul Rahman al-Barr, a member of the Brotherhood's Guidance Council, said "there is no need to speak about any decrees because they were issued by people without authority."

The ultra-conservative Nour Party, Egypt's second Islamist force after the Brotherhood, said they wanted constitutional amendments to go through a house of representatives, rather than through a committee appointed by the president.

The head of the Nour Party, Younis Makhyoun, told Reuters there had been a previous agreement that articles on sharia and identity should not be touched, but he was not satisfied with the text as it now stood.

The party initially backed the road map, lending the military Islamist legitimacy in the absence of the Brotherhood.

But on Monday, Nour said it was withdrawing from the process after 55 Mursi supporters were killed when soldiers opened fire in Cairo. However, it remains engaged in constitutional debate.

Liberals Also Want Changes

On the other side of Egypt's political divide, and for different reasons, the decree raised eyebrows at Tamarud, the youth movement which mobilized millions to take to the streets against Mursi.

Tamarud, literally "rebel", whose founder Mahmoud Badr was involved in the design of the road map, said in a statement the decree had not been run past them, and that they would propose amendments to the presidency in the near future.

Nathan Brown, a George Washington University professor and expert on Egypt, said the timetable for the amendments of the constitutions was rushed and provisions for consultations vague.

He added that the decree repeated many of the mistakes of a transition plan set out in 2011, widely blamed for being the cause of Egypt's current crisis and for protecting the interests of the military, judiciary, and ultra-conservative Islamists.

Last December, Mursi's administration rushed an Islamist-tinged constitution through in a referendum. That was seen by many as one of Mursi's biggest mistakes during his year in office. The constitution was suspended by the road map.

Monday's decree gave the interim head of state the power to issue laws after consulting with the government, which is in the process of being formed. It also kept an article that defines the principles of Islamic sharia law as the country's main source of legislation.

"We are not drafting a brand new constitution. It's just the 2012 constitution with some amendments,"
said Badr Abdelatty, foreign ministry spokesman.


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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 13 19:06:03 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 13 18:55:24 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Hmmm ... maybe WE should remove some of that "Judeo-Christian" stuff from our own in order to assuage others that we're more pluralistic too. After all, every nation should be "America," right?

(always got a kick out of "America" ... we're the United States, a small part of "America" and not sole proprietor)

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 03:17:13 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 13 19:06:03 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
What "Judeo-Christian" stuff? Our Constitution is entirely secular and appears to go out of its way to avoid mentioning God. It used "the year" rather than "the year of our lord" and does not mention God in the Preamble, in contrast to many state constitutions and the later Confederate Constitution.

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 14 03:30:16 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 03:17:13 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm quite well aware of that. Might you consider the tard I was replying to, and HIS stand on all this? As far as I'm concerned, Egypt has the right to whatever government and constitution their citizens prefer, so long as it isn't arrived at by the same subterfuge that the Brotherhood pulled the last time. My quip there was suggesting that somehow he was expecting them to adopt a 7th Day Adventist constitution.

After all, he believes that Obama (who he absolutely despises) was appointed by God ... and after all, when faced with absurd, I double down on it for shits and giggles. That's how I roll here. :)

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 04:04:59 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 14 03:30:16 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I wasn't really responding to you. Some people might be confused so it was a rhetorical question.

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 14 04:11:57 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 04:04:59 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I come here to REVEL in other people being confused, and proud to do MY part! And with that "rhetorical question" shit, now you've gone and done it to them youself! :)

So for the benefit of the baffled ...




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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Jul 14 05:51:52 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jul 14 03:17:13 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
What "Judeo-Christian" stuff? Our Constitution is entirely secular and appears to go out of its way to avoid mentioning God. It used "the year" rather than "the year of our lord" and does not mention God in the Preamble, in contrast to many state constitutions and the later Confederate Constitution.

I think for "Judeo-Christian", read "Mainline Protestant" (we don't need to go into Reform Jews arguably being Protestants too). One's neighbor being of a different Protestant denomination is pretty much a prerequisite for a secular constitution of the U.S. sort.

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by SubwaySurf on Sun Jul 14 06:19:48 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 14 04:11:57 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Now, I'm baffled. 8-)

Peace, Andee

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Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 14 06:21:51 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: military upholds Sharia law in new constitutional decree, posted by SubwaySurf on Sun Jul 14 06:19:48 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d


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Egypt revolts: General Sisi and his Islamist agenda

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 29 17:43:41 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Foreign Affairs Magazine

Sisi’s Islamist Agenda for Egypt

The General’s Radical Political Vision

Robert Springborg
July 28, 2013
Addressing graduates of military academies is a standard responsibility for high-ranking military officers all over the world. But last week, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the commander of Egypt’s armed forces, which recently deposed the country’s first freely elected president, went far beyond the conventions of the genre in a speech to graduates of Egypt’s Navy and Air Defense academies. Sisi’s true audience was the wider Egyptian public, and he presented himself less as a general in the armed forces than as a populist strongman. He urged Egyptians to take to the streets to show their support for the provisional government that he had installed after launching a coup to remove from power President Mohamed Morsi, a longtime leader of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. “I’ve never asked you for anything,” Sisi declared, before requesting a “mandate” to confront the Muslim Brotherhood, whose supporters have launched protests and sit-ins to denounce the new military-backed regime.

Sisi’s speech was only the latest suggestion that he will not be content to simply serve as the leader of Egypt’s military. Although he has vowed to lead Egypt through a democratic transition, there are plenty of indications that he is less than enthusiastic about democracy and that he intends to hold on to political power himself. But that’s not to say that he envisions a return to the secular authoritarianism of Egypt’s recent past. Given the details of Sisi’s biography and the content of his only published work, a thesis he wrote in 2006 while studying at the U.S. Army War College in Pennsylvania, it seems possible that he might have something altogether different in mind: a hybrid regime that would combine Islamism with militarism. To judge from the ideas about governance that he put forward in his thesis, Sisi might see himself less as a custodian of Egypt’s democratic future than as an Egyptian version of Muhammed Zia ul-Haq, the Pakistani general who seized power in 1977 and set about to “Islamicize” state and society in Pakistan.

Last summer, when Morsi tapped Sisi to replace Minister of Defense Muhammad Tantawi, Morsi clearly believed that he had chosen someone who was willing to subordinate himself to an elected government. Foreign observers also interpreted Sisi’s promotion as a signal that the military would finally be professionalized, beginning with a reduction of its role in politics and then, possibly, the economy. Sisi’s initial moves as defense minister reinforced this optimism. He immediately removed scores of older officers closely associated with his corrupt and unpopular predecessor. And he implicitly criticized the military’s involvement in politics after the ouster of Hosni Mubarak in 2011, warning that such “dangerous” interventions could turn Egypt into Afghanistan or Somalia and would not recur.

The Muslim Brotherhood also had a favorable attitude toward Sisi, and certainly did not see him as a threat. Brotherhood spokesmen praised his dedication to military modernization and noted that, unlike his predecessor, who maintained close ties to Washington, Sisi was a fierce Egyptian nationalist — “100 percent patriotic,” in the words of Gamal Hishmat, the official spokesman for the Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party. In May, when a prominent ultraconservative Salafist named Hazem Abu Ismail criticized Sisi for making “emotional” appeals for popular support for the military, a number of Brothers leapt to the general’s defense.

Throughout Sisi’s tenure as defense minister, the Brotherhood dismissed his political potential. Obviously, they underestimated him. That is not to say that he had been planning a coup the entire time; there is not enough evidence to determine that. But there is plenty of evidence that Sisi is not nearly as modest as he has always preferred Egyptians to believe. It is significant that he not only remained minister of defense in the new government but also took the post of first deputy prime minister. Following the cabinet’s formation, Sisi’s spokesperson appeared on television to say that although the general was not running for the presidency, there was nothing to prevent him from so doing if he retired from the military. Sisi also had his spokesman release a 30-minute YouTube video glorifying the general and the military, taking particular care to illustrate the military’s provision of goods and services to civilians. Not long thereafter, demonstrators in Cairo and elsewhere were seen carrying large photos of Sisi.

As fears of the general’s political ambitions have intensified, so have concerns about the nature of his political views. Since deposing Morsi, Sisi has clearly been trying to give the impression that he is committed to democracy. He has taken pains to ensure that civilian political figures share the limelight with him. Hazem al-Beblawi, who was appointed as the prime minister of the transitional government, claimed in his first television interview after taking office that he had not met Sisi prior to the swearing-in ceremony and that the general had not intervened in any way in his choice of ministers.

But even though he overthrew a government dominated by Islamists, there is reason to suspect that Sisi’s true goal might not be the establishment of a more inclusive, secular democracy but, rather, a military-led resurrection and reformation of the Islamist project that the Brotherhood so abysmally mishandled. Indeed, after Morsi became president, he tapped Sisi to become defense minster precisely because there was plenty of evidence that the general was sympathetic to Islamism. He is reputed to be a particularly devout Muslim who frequently inserts Koranic verses into informal conversations, and his wife wears the conservative dress favored by more orthodox Muslims. Those concerned about Sisi’s views on women’s rights were alarmed by his defense of the military’s use of “virginity tests” for female demonstrators detained during the uprising against Mubarak. Human-rights activists argued that the “tests” were amounted to sexual assaults; Sisi countered that they were intended “to protect the girls from rape.”

Morsi likely also found much to admire in the thesis that Sisi produced at the U.S. Army War College, which, despite its innocuous title (“Democracy in the Middle East”), reads like a tract produced by the Muslim Brotherhood. In his opening paragraph, Sisi emphasizes the centrality of religion to the politics of the region, arguing that “for democracy to be successful in the Middle East,” it must show “respect to the religious nature of the culture” and seek “public support from religious leaders [who] can help build strong support for the establishment of democratic systems.” Egyptians and other Arabs will view democracy positively, he wrote, only if it “sustains the religious base versus devaluing religion and creating instability.” Secularism, according to Sisi, “is unlikely to be favorably received by the vast majority of Middle Easterners, who are devout followers of the Islamic faith.” He condemns governments that “tend toward secular rule,” because they “disenfranchise large segments of the population who believe religion should not be excluded from government,” and because “they often send religious leaders to prison.”

But Sisi’s thesis goes beyond simply rejecting the idea of a secular state; it embraces a more radical view of the proper place of religion in an Islamic democracy. He writes: “Democracy cannot be understood in the Middle East without an understanding of the concept of El Kalafa,” or the caliphate, which Sisi defines as the 70-year period when Muslims were led by Muhammad and his immediate successors. Re-establishing this kind of leadership “is widely recognized as the goal for any new form of government” in the Middle East, he asserts. The central political mechanisms in such a system, he believes, are al-bi'ah (fealty to a ruler) and shura (a ruler’s consultation with his subjects). Apologists for Islamic rule sometimes suggest that these concepts are inherently democratic, but in reality they fall far short of the democratic mark.

Sisi concludes that a tripartite government would be acceptable only if the executive, legislative, and judicial branches are all sufficiently Islamic; otherwise, there must be an independent “religious” branch of government. He acknowledges that it will be a challenge to incorporate Islam into government, but concludes that there is no other choice. (As an afterthought, he adds that “there must be consideration given to non-Islamic beliefs.”)

If Sisi’s thesis truly reflects his thinking — and there is no reason to believe otherwise — it suggests not only that he might want to stay at the helm of the new Egyptian state, but that his vision of how to steer Egyptian society differs markedly from those of the secular-nationalist military rulers who led Egypt for decades: Gamal Abdel al-Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, and Mubarak. The ideas in Sisi’s thesis hew closer to those of Zia ul-Haq, who overthrew Pakistan’s democratically elected government in 1977 and soon began a campaign of “Islamicization” that included the introduction of some elements of sharia into Pakistani law, along with a state-subsidized boom in religious education. It is worth noting that Sisi has gone out of his way to court the Salafist al-Nour Party, by ensuring that the constitutional declaration issued on July 13 preserved the controversial article stating “the principles of sharia law derived from established Sunni canons” will be Egypt's “main source of legislation.” He also tried to undercut support for the leaders of the Brotherhood by appealing directly to their followers, referring to them as “good Egyptians” and “our brothers.” These moves may have been intended to inoculate him against the charge that the coup was anti-Islamist — a critical point, since Islamism still enjoys broad support in many parts of Egyptian society. But it may also reflect a genuine belief in and commitment to Islamism.

If Sisi continues to seek legitimacy for military rule by associating it with Islamism, it could prove to be a disaster for Egypt. At the very least, it would set back the democratic cause immeasurably. It would also reinforce the military’s octopus-like hold on the economy, which is already one of the major obstacles to the country's economic development. And it would also pose new dilemmas for the military itself: somehow it would need to reconcile serving the strategic objectives of Islam and those of its American patrons. It’s not clear whether that circle could be squared. And the experiment would likely come at the expense of the Egyptian people.


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Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 17 23:33:57 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, Tamarod.

INN

Movement that Toppled Morsi Targets Peace Deal with Israel

Tamarod, the Egyptian movement which led the opposition to Morsi, is now calling to cancel the peace treaty with Israel.

By Elad Benari
8/18/2013, 5:59 AM
Tamarod, the Egyptian movement which led the opposition to ousted President Mohammed Morsi, apparently now has a new target: the peace treaty with Israel.

Egyptian media reported on Saturday that Tamarod, which amassed 22 signatures to a petition demanding Morsi’s departure before the army ousted him in July, is now collecting signatures to a new initiative calling to cancel the peace treaty signed between Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in 1979.

Tamarod’s latest initiative, according to the reports, comes in the wake of what they called the “unacceptable U.S. interference in Egypt’s political affairs.” The members of the group are demanding that the Israel-Egypt treaty be put to a referendum.

The opposition movement is arguing that the agreements with Israel prevent Egypt from deploying large-scale military forces to the Sinai Peninsula which has been rampant with terrorists.

Egypt's army is currently engaged in an offensive in Sinai to curtail a surge in violence since Morsi was ousted on July 3.

The New York Times reported Saturday that Israel and Egyptian Defense Minister General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi have been in close contact throughout the latest crisis in Egypt.

Diplomats told the New York Times that Israel assured Egypt it did not have to worry about the U.S. threat to cut its enormous aid package to that country.

In response to the violence in Egypt this past week, U.S. President Barack Obama said that the United States "deplores" and "strongly condemns" violence in Egypt, and as a result is canceling U.S.-Egyptian military exercises scheduled for next month.

He said the United States believes the Egyptian government's "state of emergency should be lifted" and a process of reconciliation must begin.

At the same time, Obama did not suspend other forms of aid to Egypt and said that U.S. "engagement" with the military government in Cairo will help Egypt make the transition back to democracy.


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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 18 10:15:28 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 17 23:33:57 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The Arab side always seems to ignore is that abrogating the treaty leaves Israel free to attack Egypt at will.


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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Aug 18 10:37:59 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 18 10:15:28 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Israel never makes the first move.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 18 12:58:51 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Aug 18 10:37:59 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
My point is that the treaty protects Egypt from a superior fighting force.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 18 13:04:21 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Aug 18 10:37:59 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yup. Israel is the black chess player.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 18 18:36:30 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Aug 18 13:04:21 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
And its neighbors think that their first two moves being f3 and g4 is a good strategy.

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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 18 19:27:07 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 18 18:36:30 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Worse ... they got Star Trek in Arabic over there. They're waiting to answer the challenge, "queen to queen's level 3." :)

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 21:41:15 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jul 1 14:55:13 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Had we catered toward a more democratic like country perhaps we would not have an Anti American Iran but a strong ally in the middle east.

There was a democratic, secular government in Iran. Eisenhower's CIA overthrew it and replaced it with the Shah.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 18 21:59:44 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 21:41:15 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Correct! Worst part was the reason ... to appease Senator Joe McCarthy. :(

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 18 22:15:21 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 21:41:15 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Lie. That government was socialist.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 22:16:40 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 18 21:59:44 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
to appease Senator Joe McCarthy.

It was more to appease Winston Churchill. After years of trying to re-negotiate the 1913 terms of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company's (AIOC) concession, Mossadegh nationalized the company. The AIOC eventually became British Petroleum. Incidentially, Iran's initial request was for a 50-50 split - similar to what Saudi Arabia won from the US.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 22:30:29 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 18 22:15:21 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
That government was socialist.

That does not contradict democratic and secular.

The socialist policies that Mossadegh proposed were: unemployment insurance; sick pay; workman's compensation and abolishing serfdom.

Even under full nationalization of AIOC, 25% of the profits were reserved to compensate AIOC.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 18 22:57:17 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 22:16:40 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Eisenhower and Churchill had supposedly come to a meeting of the minds on it with a lower-key approach. It was supposedly McCarthy who threatened to haul everybody in front of his Darrel Issa fan club so I was told back in the 60's by a Nixon appointee who was there at the time.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 19 00:39:07 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 18 22:57:17 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Truman opposed Operation Ajax. Eisenhower changed course.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Aug 19 07:57:06 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 19 00:39:07 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yep ... that Truman fella was a commie. :)

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 19 16:21:47 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Aug 18 22:30:29 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You just "legitimized" Hitler's government, because he was elected, democratic and secular.

Aside from Mosaddegh nationalizing the oil industry, he had a too-close relationship with Iran's communist party (Tudeh) . . . and he was not elected by the people, but by the parliament.

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Re: Egypt revolts

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 19 17:13:39 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 19 16:21:47 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Hitler was neither democratic, nor elected and it's arguable whether he was secular (although I'll grant that he was, generally).

Most countries have their prime ministers elected by parliament. Do you consider David Cameron to be a socialist, undemocratic tyrant?

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Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel

Posted by orange blossom special on Mon Aug 19 18:58:59 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Tamarod looks to revoke peace treaty with Israel, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Aug 18 10:37:59 2013.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Irrelevant though, Arab conspiracy always ponder the stupid mood. Like the President of the PA who is a Doctor in Holocaust denial studies going on about the Jews trying to get even for the Holocaust and such.

At any rate, revoking the treaty will sure get them their raises that they were striking for, which started their whole mess.

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