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| Re: MORE TRUTH FROM OLOG: Re: Egypt revolts: M.B. rejects army's 48-hour ultimatum (1078032) | |
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Re: MORE TRUTH FROM OLOG: Re: Egypt revolts: M.B. rejects army's 48-hour ultimatum |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 1 22:18:16 2013, in response to Re: MORE TRUTH FROM OLOG: Re: Egypt revolts: M.B. rejects army's 48-hour ultimatum, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jul 1 22:17:39 2013. Those people you support do not support American values. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 01:40:54 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jul 1 17:19:32 2013. Come on you and everyone else knows that in the end this transition wasnt going to be easy and we should be pleased that muslim brotherhood is now becoming an enemy.I've been taking the long view since the beginning, on the other hand, you only started doing that once things started to look less than rosy. The archives here prove that. I've also actually been to Egypt (how many other Subchatters can make that claim?) and know full well, because I've seen how many Egyptians try to make ends meet and it depends heavily on tourists feeling that it is safe to come and travel, that endless revolution and protest is not good for business, nor is it good for making a working, stable democracy. If everyone just throws out the leader of the year for failing to meet expectations every 12 months, there will never be stability there. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 01:41:55 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jul 1 18:29:09 2013. Do you have any idea how a large number of Egyptians make their money? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 04:51:34 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 01:40:54 2013. "The archives here prove that."Go for it and find it.... |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 06:24:42 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 04:51:34 2013. I have a number of times in the past already. Do I really need to go through and pull up this subthread again and again? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 10:48:39 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 06:24:42 2013. Wheres the timeline? In that first post i even said it would take a while, and your links i miscalculated how the brotherhood would do but still they have not cemented their rule and are clearly in control of the country.Off your soapbox and quit wasting my time |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 11:10:48 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 10:48:39 2013. Off your soapbox and quit wasting my timeTypical response from you when you are presented with less than convenient facts. You aren't fooling anyone. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 11:26:55 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 11:10:48 2013. I asked you for proof of your timeline accusation of the road to democracy and your link had nothing and your further links had nothing either. Other than the mistake of assuming that the brotherhood would be able to take control of the situation. However even in your link my reply to you was what I just said about the march to democracy not happening overnight.Taking my words and twisting them doesnt make them magically change. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 12:15:06 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 11:26:55 2013. Taking my words and twisting them doesnt make them magically change. Again, you have no business making this claim. You do it all the time, including in this post, where you step back from comments you've made in the past on a selected basis. But thanks for playing. Your continued insistence that the Islamists won't last in power and that a liberal, "western" style democracy is somehow going to spring out of this is what people are taking issue with. The Egyptians (and other Arab countries) don't have real experience with democracy as you know it. The majority of Egyptians are religious and the country, while perhaps more liberal than Saudi Arabia in some ways, is still more conservative than you believe. What exactly are you expecting to come out of that combination? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 13:15:15 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 12:15:06 2013. So what did the US use when it formed a democracy? UK? Italy? Japan? France?Where did they get their experience? Enlighten me on something I am missing. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 14:09:47 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 13:15:15 2013. Your question is flawed on several counts.The fact that the US "experiment" with democracy has succeeded and continues to do so is a wonder in and of itself. There were lots of chances for it to fail. (Some here would say it is on the brink of failing.) Why are Italy and Japan on your list when they only became democracies in the 1940s? Why don't you include Israel on your list, which is actually in the Middle East and actually did become a democracy overnight? (Oh wait, you ignore that question every time it gets asked of you in this thread.) How is the democratically elected government of Russia coming along? How many other countries' model of democracy is closer to that of Russia than that of the US, especially outside of the Western world? And you still haven't addressed the fact that a conservative leaning electorate (the organizers of the Tahrir Square protests are probably not representative of the Egyptian electorate at large, another fact you seem unwilling to confront or accept) isn't likely to vote in democracy as you understand it. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 14:26:41 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 14:09:47 2013. Israel was NOT created overnight, that is the most outlandish lie you could tell, and the fact that you even push that lie as fact says everything that needs to be said.British Mandate Period ring a bell? 1947–48 Civil War Ring a Bell? You talk history and try to preach to me about ignoring things and there you are ignoring things yourself. If 27 years of regional instability is "overnight" then we haven't even entered the first hour of whats going on in Egypt. As for why? Those are these are listed because their systems were VASTLY different one was Emperial, another was Fascist, France and the UK were Monarchs. Thats why I included them and excluded Israel from that list. Now that you've had your questions answered, or are you going to play stupid again and ignore this as well? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 14:38:57 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 14:26:41 2013. The State of Israel was essentially created overnight. The British Mandate in Palestine is not analogous with the State of Israel, and the British High Commissioner of Palestine was appointed, not elected. Doesn't sound very democratic to me.What is clear is your bias against Israel in this thread and in others. Again, your posting history precedes you at this point. My points still stand, including the odd desire to get a comparison of the formation of the governments in countries in the 1940s where one was under US occupation and another was in close geographic proximity to successful democracies to those founded centuries ago. Care to try again, or want to keep proving me correct? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 14:52:38 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 14:38:57 2013. Bias? Please its your ignoring of history that fails at this point. The UN resolutions creating Israel was only after all this bloodshed came about. Once again it is not bias but historical fact. If you continue to ignore things then call yourself right then you cannot be taken seriously.Centuries ago? US is under 300 years ago, now lets be realistic. Shall we? As for your "bias" ive supported israels right to self defense many times and it seems you tend to ignore that. However you live in a glass house and enjoy throwing stones. Since you know how to use the search function so well I am sure you'll find it or play blissful ignorance. Your track record already dictates you will push for the latter. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 15:01:16 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 06:24:42 2013. Here was my two cents. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 2 15:06:52 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 13:15:15 2013. The United States was modeled after the Roman Republic. The United States was founded by educated people who knew how to form a government, and not by angry mobs like the failed French Revolution. The founders of this country went out of their way to keep power away from the masses, because they knew that would result in mob rule. The US became more democratic over the centuries at the same time as its people grew into the republic. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 15:09:10 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 13:15:15 2013. So what did the US use when it formed a democracy? UK? Italy? Japan? France?Where did they get their experience? Enlighten me on something I am missing. Yes, it used the thinking of Enlightenment philosophers from the UK, France and Italy. The founding force and major political movers and shakers of colonial American who were already holding some power in the colonial legislatures were liberal forces. In Egypt the main organized anti-military opposition force was the Muslim Brotherhood. Everybody but you saw this coming. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 15:14:00 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 14:26:41 2013. The State of Israel was created by men and women steeped and experienced in the notions of European social-democracy and who were also ready to govern.The Egyptian Revolution was ushered in by Hamas's Daddy. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:23:07 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 15:09:10 2013. Not even you saw what is happening right now coming. As much as you'd like to think you are 100% the brotherhood is barely holding onto power and if you can find me a post that says the brotherhood would cease power then have their offices burned and they would be on the brink of losing complete grip on power then id praise you. You did not. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:24:03 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 2 15:06:52 2013. The US is a republic to which a democracy grew out of. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 15:24:57 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 14:52:38 2013. The UN resolutions did not create Israel's system of government. The Israelis did that themselves.The US is more than 200 years old, therefore, centuries. Factor in the fact that the country was established in the 18th century (albeit very late) and we are now in the 21st (albeit fairly early). Simple math says "centuries" is an appropriate description. You support Israel's right to self defense along with untenable proposals vis a vis the Palestinians. Don't forget that second bit. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:31:08 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 2 15:24:57 2013. You cant have your cake and eat it too. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 15:42:21 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:31:08 2013. Yes you can, especially on your birthday. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Jul 2 15:50:02 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:31:08 2013. Of course you can, but you can't eat your cake and have it tho.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:03:37 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 15:23:07 2013. Not even you saw what is happening right now coming.So now you're pushing for a military coup? A counter-revolution? The status quo ante-Revolution? You are finally admitting that the Egyptian Army should have smashed these Islamist vermin but do so now instead of 2 years ago like SMAZ said? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 16:18:06 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:03:37 2013. Who said that all of a sudden that once the Muslim Brotherhood got elected that things were going people who want freedom and rights and security were going to shut up? The evolution of democracy is STILL going on. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:23:35 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 16:18:06 2013. The evolution of democracy is STILL going on.yeah, the kind of democratic evolution that comes with constitutions being suspended, elected Presidents being toppled and elected legislatures being dissolved by the military and the People cheering this the whole way. Just like in 1789 America. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 16:32:23 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:23:35 2013. And the Civil War was what? |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jul 2 16:36:33 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:23:35 2013. The sooner that we realize that we cannot remake the world, especially the Muslim one, in our image, the better off we will be. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 16:50:21 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 16:32:23 2013. The Civil War was not about toppling the government of the United States. It was about a group of states who sought to secede from the union. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 16:52:27 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jul 2 16:36:33 2013. tell that to ClearAspect.He thinks Egypt 2013 = Prague 1989. He believes that The Youth through Facebook and Twitter can usher in peace and democracy on their own will while discussing Montesquieu treatises in their living room with John Lennon songs in the background. |
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Re: Egypt revolts and Clear ASSpect is REVOLTING |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jul 2 16:59:03 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 16:32:23 2013. ESAD, Clear Asswipe. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:02:39 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 16:50:21 2013. Thank you for kindly pointing out the obvious, but the point was more towards the fact that our country becoming who we are today was not paved easily. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:04:18 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts and Clear ASSpect is REVOLTING, posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jul 2 16:59:03 2013. You should be ashamed to call yourself an American if you support supression of people. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 17:05:38 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:02:39 2013. Thank you for returning the favor in pointing out the obvious. However, our form of government has not meaningfully evolved in form from it's inception. What is going on in Egypt is quite another story. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:06:53 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 17:05:38 2013. Every democracy that forms has a unique story. However to simply write off a nation or its people would be unamerican. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 17:11:08 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:04:18 2013. Anyone against the suppression of people would have never supported the Egyptian Revolution to begin with. Supporting it makes about as much sense as supporting the Iranian Revolution of 1978 because the Shah was bad. The Islamists need to have their heads cracked open by the Egyptian Army. THAT will prevent the suppression of people. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 17:12:10 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:06:53 2013. I'm not writing anyone off. The people of Egypt voted for what they've gotten. The military threatening a coup in 48 hours is certainly not democratic nor is it what the people voted for. It's not going to lead to a strong democracy, either. |
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Re: Egypt revolts and Clear ASSpect is REVOLTING |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jul 2 17:14:20 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 2 17:04:18 2013. Listen to SMAZ and I. The only way to a free peaceful Egypt is for the Egyptian military to wipe out the Muslim Brotherhood and all the othetr islamofascists in Egypt. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 2 17:16:09 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 17:12:10 2013. There will be no democracy there.Nasser understood this. Sadat understood this. Mubarak understood this. The choice for the Egyptian people is between a corrupt, incompetent Islamist future with no liberties or stability or a corrupt military rule with some semblance of liberties and stability. I'll take the latter. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 01:15:22 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 2 17:05:38 2013. There was one reset, from the Articles of Confederation to the current Constitution. Even so, that reset is nothing like what is going on in Egypt. |
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Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jul 3 01:25:23 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 01:15:22 2013. That was a peaceful reset done largely by the same people who drafted the AoC to begin with.The Articles of Confederation were temporary anyway, drawn up in the midst of the war emergency, when large parts of the US were still under foreign occupation. The Constitutional Convention was Part 2 of the American project with the 1st Congress and the Bill of Rights it drafted being Part 3. |
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ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:24:49 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jul 1 12:10:04 2013. "Egypt has a dilemma: its politics are dominated by democrats who are not liberals and liberals who are not democrats."If you can bear it, those "demanding a real democracy, peace, and stability (both economically and government [sic])" are hard to find. Are you still sure you still stand your posts of the past few days, insist that this is a positive development, and all is going to turn out OK in the end, whenever that is? |
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Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Jul 3 07:38:14 2013, in response to ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:24:49 2013. It might and it takes time, at least more time than just a 48 hour news period. Any movement against an Islamist state is at the very least a good thing.your pal, Fred |
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Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:51:30 2013, in response to Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts, posted by Fred G on Wed Jul 3 07:38:14 2013. Any movement against an Islamist state is at the very least a good thing.Some of the people here who said democracy would be good for Egypt were dismayed when the Brotherhood won the elections a year ago in a free election, and now want to see the democratically elected government thrown out because they don't agree with it. That doesn't sound like democracy to me. |
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Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Jul 3 07:58:38 2013, in response to Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:51:30 2013. Well yeah, democracy is at its best when the party I like wins :)Even in the US, words like "recall" and "impeachment" follow our free elections, where we love democracy but hate the result. We don't want military coup but I'm sure there are more than a couple people who wouldn't mind Obama being ousted by any means possible. your pal, Fred |
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Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 3 15:20:10 2013, in response to Egypt revolts, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 1 11:15:34 2013. Wonder what kind of devil will come in his place. After all, he would not have been in power if not for the military. The TV and cable news is currently having a big lather over the events . . . (hmm, like 2011)S'guy news
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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military |
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Posted by daNd124 on Wed Jul 3 15:25:07 2013, in response to Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 3 15:20:10 2013. is guess the best outcome is they turn into thailand where the military overthrows the government ever five years or so but is otherwise not all that bad. |
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Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Jul 3 16:07:46 2013, in response to Re: ClearAspect--Read this... Re: Egypt revolts, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 3 07:51:30 2013. There's a difference between democracy an freedom.Some of the original protesters thought freedom would come thru democracy. To their horror, they realized that the ballot box would destroy whatever freedoms they actually had under military rule. Just like Italy '24 or Germany '33. Democracy is worthless when those coming into power through that method have no intention of keeping it. The naive here think that once you have free elections in those shit countries, you automatically get the formation of European-like parties, who whatever their policy differences, at least have a real commitment to freedom and democracy. They were warned but didn't listen. I hope the Egyptian military re-establishes martial law and again bans and imprisons the MB. The Egyptian electorate wasn't yet ready for primetime and probably never will be. Just like the Palestinians. That's why they will never get their own independent state. |
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Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 3 16:08:25 2013, in response to Re: Egypt revolts: Morsi given the boot by military, posted by daNd124 on Wed Jul 3 15:25:07 2013. Thailand has a reasonable monarch. Perhaps Egypt needs to bring back the Pharaoh, but as a constitutional monarch. |
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