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| (848276) | |
The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011 http://abcnews.go.com/US/petit-trial-coroner-describes-teen-daughters-death/story?id=14607151. |
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| (848301) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 09:16:59 2011, in response to The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011. Okay, and? |
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| (848312) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by vfrt on Tue Sep 27 10:00:48 2011, in response to The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011. Joshua Komisarjevsky is not a human being. CT should bring back the gallows for him so he can dangle and die s-l-o-w-l-y. |
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| (848314) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 10:07:49 2011, in response to The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011. Killing this monster is supposed to show that we are more "civilized" (yet just as bloodthirsty) as he is? Not buying it. We don't have a perfect justice system, so I won't support absolute punishments like the DP. Besides, I think life in prison without parole is a more severe punishment than death, especially for a young man like this inmate. |
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| (848317) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 10:12:46 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 10:07:49 2011. I agree with JayMan on this, and this ANIMAL performed a particularly brural crime. Tying people to beds so they are stuck as they succumb to the fire? DISGUSTING. |
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| (848322) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 10:27:26 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by vfrt on Tue Sep 27 10:00:48 2011. Re-open Newgate Prison |
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| (848339) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Sep 27 11:47:26 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 10:07:49 2011. It may be more severe but why should society pay $_____ to keep this killer alive for who knows how many years? |
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| (848348) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 12:01:11 2011, in response to The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011. Anything else beyond an Appeal to Pity? |
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| (848353) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 12:04:48 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Dave on Tue Sep 27 11:47:26 2011. And not to mention, at least his death would be humane, unlike the way he treated his victims. |
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| (848360) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 12:12:35 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Dave on Tue Sep 27 11:47:26 2011. IIRC, the legal costs associated with a death sentence often far outweigh the cost of thirty years' incarceration... |
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| (848361) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 12:13:07 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 12:12:35 2011. That is correct. |
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| (848363) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 12:13:50 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Dave on Tue Sep 27 11:47:26 2011. Because justice isn't cheap. Your argument can be extended to any criminal. |
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| (848365) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 12:16:16 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 10:07:49 2011. IAWTP. Not that LwoP is a more severe punishment, I can't judge that, but the rest of the post. |
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| (848389) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 12:35:32 2011, in response to The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 07:38:26 2011. Yes. This is definitely an example of, "How can anyone not understand why we need a death penalty"? |
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| (848401) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 13:03:04 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 12:35:32 2011. Which serves what purpose exactly? It's not like the existence of the death penalty prevented the defendant from killing his victims so gruesomely. |
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| (848402) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:03:15 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 12:35:32 2011. As we speak - (40) 42 inch flat screen TVs are being installed in the Allegheny County Jail near Pittsburgh. The inmates, to be surer, will not be subject to 24/7 Pat Robertson broadcasts. |
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| (848406) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:07:46 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 13:03:04 2011. Death penalty does not bring the victims back to life.It does not give the victim's family and friends any closure. It certainly does not deter others form committing capital crimes. How ever it does provide a safety relief valve for society. Vengeance is highly under-rated as a feel good tool. Also there is a zero recidivism rate. |
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| (848418) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 13:26:22 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:07:46 2011. The object of American justice, however, is balance, not vengeance... |
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| (848430) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:40:25 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 13:26:22 2011. Yes, we've somehow lost our moral compass when we changed from penal institutions to correctional institutions |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:13:56 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 13:26:22 2011. And there won't be any balance, as his victims died such a cruel death at his hand, that almost nothing that will be done to him would even come close to a fraction of what he put those poor people through. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:14:45 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:40:25 2011. There is no "correctional" possible to what this animal did to those people. Tying them to a bed and letting them burn. The terror those poor people must have been through. |
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| (848460) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 14:18:20 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:13:56 2011. Ok, but what would executing him actually achieve? Would it prevent anyone else from being murdered so gruesomely? Will it save money? Will it provide catharsis? The last one yes, but how much after he'll have been on death row for so long? |
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| (848461) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 14:18:51 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:14:45 2011. Which is why there's life imprisonment. That's not correctional. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Sep 27 14:20:31 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 12:35:32 2011. If you truly value life, you can't allow someone like this to continue living. Life imprisonment isn't a punishment that fits the crime. Remember, justice is not about revenge, so all that "like in jail is far worse" crap is meaningless. |
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| (848469) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:29:28 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 14:18:20 2011. I understand all that, and criminals know that they can commit things and won't necessarily be subjected to death, as there's the whole bureaucracy involved in that. But that's how it is now, but if more are actually brought down, it could make an incentive not to commit such a brutal and heartless crime. |
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| (848486) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 14:48:44 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:07:46 2011. Vengeance may provide a catharsis but it's in conflict with the idea of a Christian nation.your pal, Fred |
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| (848500) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:10:33 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Sep 27 14:20:31 2011. And what's the point if he stays alive 20 years on death row due to endless, costly appeals? |
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| (848503) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:13:33 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:29:28 2011. I disagree. The crime rate is actually lower in CP-free states than in those with it. It could be argued that the deterrent effect is overriden by other factors, but there are around 12 states without capital punishment. |
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| (848512) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:23:29 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 14:48:44 2011. Which isn't a problem as the government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion. |
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| (848514) | |
Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 27 15:25:31 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 27 13:26:22 2011. The object of American justice, however, is balance, not vengeance...The objective of American justice is neither balance nor vengeance. The objective is proportionate justice that takes into account the hideousness of the crime, genuine remorse (or lack thereof) by the culprit, collaboration with authorities (like a guilty plea or testimony on other defendants), his/her past history (at sentencing), the chance that he may hurt people again (a fellow inmate or correctional personnel) and other aggravating and mitigating circumstances, an incarceration that is free of cruel and unusual punishment, along with a process that insures a fair trial, solid appeals and in capital punishment cases, an ironclad determination of guilt. Kill this piece of shit. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 27 15:30:06 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:03:15 2011. The correctional officer/sheriff deputy unions want those and they are not paid for by taxpayers.Also jail is for presumed innocent people accused of crimes who don't have money for to post bail. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 15:31:09 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:23:29 2011. At least you didn't use that other ridiculous phrase that is rampant lately. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 15:33:35 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Sep 27 14:20:31 2011. Good post. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 15:34:03 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:07:46 2011. Excellent points.The need for vengeance is a part of human nature. The whole point of organized criminal justice is to codify that urge. In some cases, such as these, it needs to happen, at least until we figure out another suitably fitting punishment. That said, I believe the death penalty should be reserved only for the most heinous monsters such as these vermin, and it should only be applied when the case is airtight (defined as the minimum level of doubt; there is little doubt of guilt here). |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 15:36:16 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 27 15:25:31 2011. Excellent post. Word for word. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 15:37:12 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:13:56 2011. Not in our society at least. We've given up on the Joan of Arc type of sentencing (thankfully so, although it's really hard for me to be too opposed to it in this case). |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 15:38:15 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 14:18:20 2011. I don't think he'll be on death row very long. There isn't much room for him to appeal here... |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:41:27 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Train Dude on Tue Sep 27 13:03:15 2011. Similar to "music calms the savage beast" TV keeps convicts occupied and probably save the taxpayer money in the long run over hiring additional staff. The size of the TV is so that a few dozen prisoners can watch at same time.Any convict in high security prison can purchase a small TV for personal use from the commissary. your pal, Fred |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 15:42:06 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 14:29:28 2011. Actually I'm not in agreement here. Some people are so deranged that no amount of deterrent will stop them from committing their heinous acts. Executing him and his buddy is mainly on principle here, rightfully so. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:43:19 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:23:29 2011. No it's not, but its populace by and large claims to be and the idea of revenge contradicts their Christianity.your pal, Fred |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 15:45:52 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:43:19 2011. How does it contradict Christianity?And are you targeting Christianity in particular? |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 15:47:00 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 15:42:06 2011. Actually, I guess I agree. Anyone so cruel to have committed such a heinous act as this is completely deranged. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:51:37 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 15:45:52 2011. Christianity teaches against vengeance as their vision is of a loving God and not a vengeful one.your pal, Fred |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:53:01 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 15:47:00 2011. It's more like removing a tumor from the body of otherwise healthy society. These guys are seriously deranged and there's no cure for their compulsion.your pal, Fred |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 16:11:05 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 15:13:33 2011. Let's take a look at that demographically: Blue - No current death penalty statute Yellow - Retentionist, not applied since at least 1976 Red - Retentionist, has performed execution since 1976 Orange - Retains in law; either statute/method ruled unconstitutional, penalty Imprisonment rates per 100,000 population, in 1997, by race by state (from http://www.vdare.com/articles/mapping-the-unmentionable-race-and-crime): Non-Hispanic White:  Black:  Hispanic:  Of the states that don't have the death penalty, with the exception of the Tri-States, Michigan, and Illinois, all have low minority populations, and then most of that is concentrated in urban areas only. And the White crime rates in these states is low. I suspect that differences in the population are responsible for the differences in crime rates from the Northeast and Midwestern states and the rest of the country; the states of the South and West have been historically more violent—even among Whites—hence the belief of the culture for the need for capital punishment. That is, having a death penalty doesn't raise the crime rate (even though I know you argument is that is that it doesn't lower it, for which I'm in agreement), but perhaps a higher crime rate leads more people to want a death penalty. Or indeed, perhaps it is a symptom of a generally more violent culture. This is certainly the case in Rick Perry's Texas... |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 16:18:15 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 12:01:11 2011. See Train Dude's post and my response to it.This is hardly fallacious, because the entire concept of crime in punishment depends, in large part, on our values, beyond the practical issues as the need for a deterrent and the need to keep criminals safely away from society. The question is whether some crimes are so heinous that only execution is a fitting punishment. I would argue that some crimes are, such as this one. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Sep 27 16:18:42 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by JayMan on Tue Sep 27 16:11:05 2011. Interestingly, you moved to a state that has a 1.1% black population. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 16:46:27 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 27 15:25:31 2011. I do not believe that guaranteeing an "ironclad determination of guilt" can ever be possible. |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 16:48:28 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Sep 27 15:31:09 2011. What phrase? |
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Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Sep 27 16:49:03 2011, in response to Re: The Death Penalty: Why some people need killing, posted by Fred G on Tue Sep 27 15:43:19 2011. Doesn't stop most people from supporting capital punishment. |
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