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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:12:40 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:07:01 2011. Thats nothing compared to the 60-80% that they used to pay shortly after WWII to help pay off the 120% GDP debt... whats your argument now? If the rich did it before... you're telling me that 45% is too much? Want me to fill pity for someone making hundreds or millions dollars and losing it, while I with my 50,000 lose nearly 15-25% of my checks to taxes. If I can sacrifice... why can't those who can afford more. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:13:08 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:05:45 2011. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2011/most_voters_are_unhappy_with_both_sides_in_the_debt_ceiling_debatehttp://www.gallup.com/poll/148472/deficit-americans-prefer-spending-cuts-open-tax-hikes.aspx |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:17:07 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:13:08 2011. I'll counter this with a simple argument... when you were a kid and you were sick, did you like taking that nasty tasting medicine?Or like I said this economy is like a cancer, it needs chemotherapy we may lose hair, we may throw up, we may feel like shit. When clinton raised taxes did the economy fail? Did people jump out windows? Did the economy crumble and falter? Did life in America end? Did the unemployment rate skyrocket? No, no, no, no, no, no.... it time for America to take it's medicine. Time for the chemotherapy, it wont feel good, but in order to survive, we have to make tough changes and accept tough times. If you want to be apart of the pussy generation, then by all means be apart of it. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 22 20:19:03 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:12:40 2011. Sub human Nazis like Chris are the useful idiots for the useless rich. The fact that guys like Chris are not in prison is just more proof that our form of government cannot deal with the depth of debauchery that is embodied in conservatism and the Republican Party. After the collapse, this situation WILL be corrected. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:19:21 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:10:49 2011. Jeez, could you do your own research for a change? |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 22 20:20:09 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:19:21 2011. DO the right thing!!! |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jul 22 20:20:11 2011, in response to Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 18:37:06 2011. Well, Boehner turned down $3 trillion in deficit reduction. Considering he only controls one of the 3 institutions that makes laws, that's a pretty interesting attitude. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:21:23 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:10:12 2011. None of these concessions were ever made. They were talked about, but the President has not offered a single concrete proposal. You can't make a concession when you haven't made a single actual proposal. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:25:25 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by AlM on Fri Jul 22 20:20:11 2011. He's turned nothing down. The White House has not made a single concrete proposal which includes any actual deficit reduction. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:28:07 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:19:21 2011. You made the statement, you back it up... why should I do your work? Lazy much? |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:29:03 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:21:23 2011. You were in the room with the President and Speaker? Tell me more! Tell me all the wonderful insights you witnessed... you're a funny guy. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:29:33 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:12:40 2011. The rich did it before in part because local taxes were never as high as today. And there were more loopholes. IRS is much tougher today.I agree that at 50,000G's, you're taxed too high. I just mentioned the 45% total tax because it's something people often overlook. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:31:55 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:29:33 2011. 45% for a person making 10 million... thats 5.5 million still in the pocket... I'll get out the tiny violin. I say the high tax rate starts for people making over 1 million, I think 250,000 is still not a lot in todays money. 250,000 a year you can still struggle with a family of 4 and a commuting costs. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 22 20:32:45 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:25:25 2011. Heh. You're having fun with your spin, aren't you? :) |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:37:11 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:31:55 2011. I didn't have millionaires in mind. I was thinking more like $250,000-$500,000. NY has a tax that kicks in on people making more than $250,000 and it expires soon and the teacher's union is fighting hard to extend it another few years.I'll be back later. Listening to "Al Sharpton Keeping It Real". |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 22 20:40:43 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 20:29:03 2011. Nah ... ACORN Pimp dude was hiding in the desk behind the trap door. :) |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 22 20:49:02 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:37:11 2011. Hopefully they'll succeed. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 22 20:54:06 2011, in response to Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 18:37:06 2011. Orange Alert!Your pal, Fred |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 22 21:02:54 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 22 19:25:50 2011. Better than keeping Britain going. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 21:24:47 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:08:48 2011. We bring in trillions more in revenues than we need to meet obligations every year.I suspect that you may want to rephrase that statement as you're implying that we would have a surplus and not a deficit. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:33:26 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 22 19:25:50 2011. Yep.Entitlements like 11 carrier groups and C-17s that the USAF doesn't want. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:40:12 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 22 20:07:01 2011. That's close to 45% effective for the top earners. That's why Republicans fight increases.You make yourself look incredibly dumb everytime you say stuff like that. The richest 400 Americans paid only 16.6% in federal taxes. That's less than the average worker. YOU pay so they don't have to. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:42:02 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 19:07:00 2011. You could have had Soros money had you not chosen to be a slave instead. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:44:22 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 19:42:04 2011. That constitutional authority is non-existent and made up by people that need stuff to write about.Ironically, McConnell actually wants to legally give it to him. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:50:58 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 19:31:59 2011. No it's not.It would be a violation of the Constitution only to not pay Social Security, pensions and military/veterans pay and benefits. The 14th Amendment specifically mentions "pensions and bounties" That's means that those expenditures get priority after Aug 2 when the government will officially be living within it means. Everything else goes. Bill Clinton was wrong in his comments. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 22:06:50 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 20:08:48 2011. Great.We can pay the Chinese and do away with the military, the courts, border enforcement, payments to nursing homes, civil aviation, embassies, payments to schools and everything else. Sounds like a good plan. Let's do it. I shall stand on record here as actually being in favor of a brief default. Our AAA rating has no basis in reality and is based on the past, rather than current and future conditions and the make-up of our legislative process. It's the equivalent of AAA-rated subprime-backed securities circa 2007. Anybody in the know knew they were shit. All that rating does is grossly distort the true functioning of global markets and finance by assigning an ultrasafe rating that is really an AA or AA- at best (like Italy's). Pretty good but not great. I know people that who know about this stuff like CharlesG and Dave will disagree with me and perhaps even call me crazy because of the catastrophic consequences, but truth be told, I'm the last true believer in capitalism and free markets on this board and current global conditions needs a big cleanup. There are myriad ways to protect yourself against the cataclysm of sovereign default. Greece needs to do it too. (A REAL default). Iceland emerged from it and is borrowing on open markets and reasonable rates. Greece is digging itself deeper into a hole. So Charles, Dave whaddya think? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 22:08:36 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jul 22 19:58:55 2011. A move that would be clearly unconstitutional would rattle the markets even more.Who the hell would buy into a bond offering when that offering may be illegal? |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:04:48 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 22:06:50 2011. perhaps even call me crazy because of the catastrophic consequences, but truth be told, I'm the last true believer in capitalism and free markets on this board and current global conditions needs a big cleanup.In contrast, I'm far too dirigiste and paranoid to allow what could be the unraveling of Occidental civilization to occur, so I'm in the school of thought that everything that can be done to save the system and put out the metaphorical fires must be done as the alternative is for all of us to perish in impoverishment. |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:06:47 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 21:42:02 2011. Sorry, nope, never worked for no union. I don't believe in "workers paradise" or working forever. I choose freedom. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:07:13 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 19:21:23 2011. Or if i had soros money, I could tell Murdoch what to do and threaten their executives...as he does. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:07:44 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:06:47 2011. Now if only the gov't didn't make having every type of business illegal. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:15:00 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:04:48 2011. In contrast, I'm far too dirigiste and paranoid to allow what could be the unraveling of Occidental civilization to occur,Occidental civilzation has survived far worse things than government defaults. What it will mean is the end of the superpower status of the US. And a voluntary one at that since markets still loan the US at less than 3% on a 10-year note. This is what we chose. In November, the People spoke. The people will now reap what they sowed. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:16:36 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:06:47 2011. You're free?HAHAHAHA!! You are a SLAVE and will die as a slave! |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:27:14 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:15:00 2011. Occidental civilzation has survived far worse things than government defaults.We barely made it through 1929 to 1945. I question our ability to do so again. What it will mean is the end of the superpower status of the US. Which is something I'm not personally looking forward to. It's expensive, but it's arguably necessary for the stability of the globe as we're the only Occidental nation with the economies of scale to even remotely support such a large and powerful military. The Europeans still have too many different goals within the respective national capitals, and quite frankly, I don't trust the Chinese. And a voluntary one at that since markets still loan the US at less than 3% on a 10-year note. Actually, one problem that this may cause is that a lot of state and municipal bonds have credit ratings and rates based on that of US sovereign debt. So the question remains if these lower levels of government will see the same easy credit policies and well, and the effect upon their ability to service their debt. Regardless, some have argued that the problem is that there's simply far too much money seeking far too much in terms of easy and high returns, hence the bubbles that have developed in the real estate and mortgage backed security markets, and some would now even argue that sovereign debt is the next bubble to burst as there's no way for all of this debt to be repaid. The question is if US Treasuries go to AA status, what is left for funds to invest in that's still AAA and "safe", and that's if we'll have a banking system left. People will say Iceland survived, but that place has nearly the same number of people as Staten Island, so it's a drop in the bucket, and they are not suffering from a sovereign debt collapse. This is what we chose. In November, the People spoke. The people will now reap what they sowed. Sometimes, you have to prevent people from acting stupid. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 23:30:45 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:15:00 2011. Funny, I said the same thing 2 years ago.We'll see what happens in 2012. If I were a betting man, I would double down against the left. |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:30:55 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:16:36 2011. Yes, let me join your union so I can't live anywhere I want, do anything I want(before gov't stopped that too), and some dictator can set my wage forbidding me a choice in employer, and mess with when I am allowed to retire and die.Sounds like a great plan you lot have. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 22 23:31:22 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:27:14 2011. We tried that. Rupert convinced everybody differently. All hail the Queen, we'll pay his bail. Now Germany and China can defend the world and we can enjoy our tax cut. And our BMW, big screen TV and iPads in peace. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 22 23:45:51 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 22 23:30:55 2011. Yes, let me join your union so I can't live anywhere I want, do anything I want(before gov't stopped that too), and some dictator can set my wage forbidding me a choice in employer, and mess with when I am allowed to retire and die.
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:50:49 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 22 23:31:22 2011. And our BMW, big screen TV and iPads in peace.I'll clue you into something. We won't have those things when the currency collapses from the default. Or, you won't be able to buy new ones... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 22 23:59:34 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:50:49 2011. The last sentence sums it up. But they're not worried about that. They wanted theirs now. I'm still fuming after watching that teabag asshole on the network news bitching about how he might see his taxes go up and said, "I want my new Nintendo NOW." Not all that long ago, we were willing to save up for a shiny new toy and buy it when we got there.Not any more. :( |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 23 00:08:56 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 22 23:27:14 2011. The future of Occidental civilization doesn't depend on the United States.We chose to forfeit that role with our actions of the last 10 years. Less-idiotic nations like Germany, etc will take up that role. It's expensive, but it's arguably necessary for the stability of the globe as we're the only Occidental nation with the economies of scale to even remotely support such a large and powerful military. We're not willing to pay for it. Expenses require taxes. The Europeans still have too many different goals within the respective national capitals Those differences are not a barrier to progress. They are not debating Evolution or birth certificates or voluntary debt defaults or eliminating old people's health care over there. They've got their priorities straight on the things that actually matter. Regardless, some have argued that the problem is that there's simply far too much money seeking far too much in terms of easy and high returns, hence the bubbles that have developed in the real estate and mortgage backed security markets, and some would now even argue that sovereign debt is the next bubble to burst as there's no way for all of this debt to be repaid. The debt should have never been issued. Losing it or seeing others lose it allows people to be more level-headed and realistic in where they put their money. People thought they were making money in Greek debt because it had a 2 point spread over German bunds. The question is if US Treasuries go to AA status, what is left for funds to invest in that's still AAA and "safe", Nothing is safe. Nothing will ever be ever safe. People and institutions were putting money in US bonds on the idea that in an uncertain financial environment they could at least protect their principal without doing their homework on the kind of people that hold the power of the Purse. They didn't realize that Crazy took over last year. They should have invested in Australian securities or Swiss ones instead. and they are not suffering from a sovereign debt collapse. Iceland went broke, told the world to go fuck itself and started over. When it finally dawned on the losing investors and others that they weren't gonna get their old money back, banks and institutions were more than happy to lend since Iceland has basically wiped out all their pre-existing debt and have no problems meeting new debt payments. It's like lending to someone with no debt versus lending to someone who's credit card is maxed out and needs money just to pay his electric bill. Who would you lend to? Sometimes, you have to prevent people from acting stupid. And sometimes you must make their stupidity play out so that they can finally learn their lesson. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:12:14 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 23 00:08:56 2011. You would have thought 2000-2008 would have done that. :(I'm just hoping that there's enough of us left after this next crescendo of stupid willing to roll up our sleeves and fix this next wave of self-destruction. Sadly, so far we redid 1929. OK, that should have been enough of a warning. Now we're going to do 1931 again? Well ... we know where this movie goes. Hopefully the survivors will have had enough THIS time around. If we're lucky. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 23 00:18:51 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 23:30:45 2011. If we default, 2012 will not matter anyway.The whole point of governance is to avoid that these things happen in the first place. Think about it: Congress appropriate monies for certain things (wars, general government, etc) and cuts revenues in the process. So they pass these bills with deficits already in them. Money gets loaned to them for this purpose by the markets and by individuals. They then refuse to authorize the borrowing authority to pay for the commitments that THEY themselves authorized over the last 30 years even though the markets are more than happy to lend at rock-bottom rates. Is that a nation that anyone should still take seriously? 2012 no longer matters. Might as well head to the local HS debate team tournament for shits and giggles. Governments were for governance and they forfeited the only responsibility they had been given. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:24:57 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 23 00:18:51 2011. And in the past ONE year, things have gotten far worse than they ever were before. With the current (and reasonably short term future) interest rates, we should have kept the deficit spending going since government was called upon to substitute for both consumer and corporate borrowing. I can see all this republican horseshit being an issue if the interest rates were high ...In the meantime, we're loaning to China at a rate of 0.1% as well as the banks and they're turning around and reselling our treasuries at HOW much? :( That money would be a LOT better spent on rebuilding America for when the economy gets back on its feet. Instead, American taxpayers are paying for HSR in China. We are our own worst enemy. :( |
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Posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Sat Jul 23 00:28:11 2011, in response to Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 18:37:06 2011. The Senate and the House are also deadlocked on the FAA, which is going to be partially shut down...The FAA can't collect excise taxes and the airlines can't charge said taxes as of today. Jetblue's even reimbursing the taxes if you already booked travel within the next 7 days LOL. Wow, what a mess in DC.... |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:28:56 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Sat Jul 23 00:28:11 2011. And we aren't even halfway through this biannual stupid. :( |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:31:38 2011, in response to Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 22 18:37:06 2011. 
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jul 23 00:32:54 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 23 00:08:56 2011. The future of Occidental civilization doesn't depend on the United States.I would make an argument that our decline would end up destroying the rest of Occidental civilization too as European debt levels would become far too high to service, and quite frankly, there simply won't be such a large economic state to basically serve as the market of last resort. Who is going to make up for that demand for those products that we once consumed, and the answer is nobody. Less-idiotic nations like Germany, etc will take up that role. They lack the projection power to do so. Hell, it remains to be seen if they could buy our CVNs at firesale prices and operate them. We're not willing to pay for it. Expenses require taxes. Ultimately, that is a real problem, but I suspect that for some there is a weird disconnect in terms of public policy and taxation, and the understanding of how government works. Those differences are not a barrier to progress. When there's one European centralized military and uniform foreign policy, we'll talk, and see how much energy deGaulle is generating in his grave. Iceland went broke, told the world to go fuck itself and started over. Yes, but when a country with actual importance to the global economy craps on itself, you're not going to get a soft landing, but a harsh one. Failed banks, destroyed wealth, and hollowed industries will result, and I wouldn't be surprised to see unemployment rates in the 50% range given the destruction of demand. It's like lending to someone with no debt versus lending to someone who's credit card is maxed out and needs money just to pay his electric bill. Who would you lend to? Neither. The former defaulted already, and latter is likely to default next. Nobody is going to lend out to the United States at anything other than usurious rates because with economic default, there is little guarantee of an ability to pay back the loan as the tax revenues will simply be a fraction of their former self, and that's if there's a financial institution that still solvent. And sometimes you must make their stupidity play out so that they can finally learn their lesson. Stupid people when hungry tend to make even worst decisions. I am not willing to starve in order to prove a point. |
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Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jul 23 00:35:15 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:28:56 2011. And we aren't even halfway through this biannual stupid.We need five year terms, as the perpetual election cycle is ruining things and leading to very, very short-term solutions. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jul 23 00:40:29 2011, in response to Re: Boehner walks away, gives up on debt negotiations with Obama, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 23 00:24:57 2011. With the current (and reasonably short term future) interest rates, we should have kept the deficit spending going since government was called upon to substitute for both consumer and corporate borrowingThe problem is that there's way to guarantee that those rates will always be so low in the future which prevents us from properly servicing our debt. Had we not accumulated so much debt during the previous economic cycle, we would have had far more freedom to implement a proper Keynesian approach with a larger and more sustained stimulus. Regardless, we could open up the spigot slightly more in order to promote various infrastructure projects and ensure some degree of support for state and municipal employees, but we don't have the same freedom to go fully dirigiste, especially with bond vultures waiting to go play speculator. |
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