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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 03:27:41 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 03:17:34 2011.

You're a little off on the goals of the animal rights groups

That was not the point of the thread though. Holland isn't ruled by a government that is all animal-rights people.

(802984)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:33:27 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:00:03 2011.

PETA has no political power whatsoever.

(802985)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 03:35:15 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:33:27 2011.

As it should be. However, they had enough pull with the lawyers to take "peta.org" away from this fine website . . .

(802986)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:36:39 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:29:57 2011.

What does the word "superstitious" have to do with anything?

I'd like to see that.

(802987)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:37:23 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:36:40 2011.

Luckily Jews don't slaughter pigs by slitting their throats, so that's moot.

(802988)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:37:47 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:37:10 2011.

People are entitled to them. Animals are not.

(802990)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:39:30 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:55:59 2011.

Which has nothing to do with anything. I can mock them for the fact that they want their food slaughtered a certain way but I will defend to (human) death their right to do it.

(803001)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 05:58:45 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 02:57:15 2011.

It's not 'BS' because you say so. Anyone who has followed the debate over this sees that the first and foremost reason behind this ban is animal rights, and it's meant as an attack on religion. Of course, for a known conspiracy theorist with a clear agenda to prove Europe is evil such as yourself, that's not nearly as spectacular as screaming 'anti-semitism' and comparing it to 1930s Nazi Germany, but it's a lot more bloody truthful.

I love how you conveniently seem to ignore that a provision of this law states that if Jewish and Muslim organisations can show that the animals do not suffer more without being stunned first, they can get an exception to the law. That clearly shows this is about animals welfare, not religion.

But you won't accept that, as it doesn't fit your agenda...

(803003)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 1 06:38:28 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 03:37:23 2011.

Yep

(803019)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 08:19:03 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:00:03 2011.

Does it really matter who the intended victims are? The truth is if this is passed, Jews in Holland will all have to become vegetarians. So I don't care if Jews are just "collateral victims", they are still victims.

(803020)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 1 08:20:05 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 08:19:03 2011.

You mean Jews who keep Kosher, but point taken.

(803025)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 1 08:24:41 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 1 08:20:05 2011.

And that is not many at all.

(803036)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 08:47:34 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 1 08:20:05 2011.

By the way, for the record I believe it is intended towards religion, my point is the debate doesn't matter whatever their intent is, Jews are their victims.

(803043)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 09:06:29 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Mitch45 on Fri Jul 1 08:24:41 2011.

I don't think that really matters. I admit I am not 100% Kosher and not Shomer Shabbos (although I do go to Shul almost every day and put on Tefillin most days) but when a nation (or city) wants to outlaw a Jewish law I am deeply offended.

(803052)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 10:14:52 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 05:58:45 2011.

Make that 'NOT' meant as an attack on religion of course.

(803053)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 1 10:17:56 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 05:58:45 2011.



a provision of this law states that if Jewish and Muslim organisations can show that the animals do not suffer more without being stunned first, they can get an exception to the law. That clearly shows this is about animals welfare, not religion.

Uh, shouldn't the gov't come to a decision about whether animals do or do not suffer more without being stunned first BEFORE passing this new law??????????????

(803054)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 10:20:55 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 08:19:03 2011.

"The truth is if this is passed, Jews in Holland will all have to become vegetarians"

No it doesn't. There's a provision in the law that states that if organisations wanting to slaughter animals without stunning them first can show that the animals do not suffer more than when they're stunned first, they'll get an exception to the new law.

(803055)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 10:31:07 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 1 10:17:56 2011.

No, because this isn't any general exception here. Simply put: slaughtering animals without stunning them first is banned, UNLESS you can show that the way YOU do it doesn't cause the animal extra suffering.

Basically, see it as an invitation to searching for ways to improve the procedure, lessening animal suffering while still being in line with religious doctrine. Seeing as how the procedure was designed, back in the day, with the aim of minimising animal suffering, I don't see how religious leaders would oppose such improvements.

(803060)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 1 10:45:43 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 30 21:05:07 2011.

I am not a jewish state. I want reparations in the way that most of Obama's minnions want reparations.

I'm forgetting the purpose of this topic, but i'm going to roll with it.

(803063)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 1 10:47:08 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 02:00:03 2011.

Per the NYTimes yesterday, BBQ is 30% of global warming, and we should not BBQ this weekend.

Also....recall in Australia an expert wanted to ban all meet for the carbon.

(803066)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 10:55:10 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 05:58:45 2011.

I love how you conveniently seem to ignore that a provision of this law states that if Jewish and Muslim organisations can show that the animals do not suffer more without being stunned first, they can get an exception to the law. That clearly shows this is about animals welfare, not religion.

That's the problem right there. There shouldn't be a "religious exemption" to a law. Although moot, if any organization, regardless of motivation can prove that an animal doesn't suffer without being stunned, they should get an exemption.

(803111)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 12:26:33 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 10:55:10 2011.

"Although moot, if any organization, regardless of motivation can prove that an animal doesn't suffer without being stunned, they should get an exemption."

Of course it goes for any organisation, not just Muslim or Jewish ones. It's just that those are the ones most likely and primarily affected.

(803167)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 14:30:35 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by orange blossom special on Fri Jul 1 10:47:08 2011.

Per the NYTimes yesterday, BBQ is 30% of global warming, and we should not BBQ this weekend

That reminds me . . . Belgium instituted a barbecue tax four years ago that was an April Fool's joke.

(803168)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 1 14:35:16 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 14:30:35 2011.

That bbq global warming joke has whiskers on it.

your pal,
Fred

(803172)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 1 14:45:07 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 1 09:06:29 2011.

I don't think that really matters. I admit I am not 100% Kosher and not Shomer Shabbos (although I do go to Shul almost every day and put on Tefillin most days) but when a nation (or city) wants to outlaw a Jewish law I am deeply offended.

Glad you feel that way. You never know when banning of tefillin is next. Then shuls.

(803233)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 18:23:45 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 1 12:26:33 2011.

Which makes the law useless. If any one organization can prove that the procedure is not cruel, then it's not cruel and it wouldn't make any sense banning it.

(803235)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 18:30:09 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 18:23:45 2011.

Satanists would be affected too.

(803242)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 18:50:19 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 18:30:09 2011.

So?

(803244)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 18:52:43 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 18:50:19 2011.

Here's what I'm saying;

ONE NATION. VEGAN NATION.

That would be great.

(803246)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 18:54:34 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Jun 29 12:09:02 2011.

Ologism and Jaapism are both forms of Fascism but Jaapism advocates eradicating Judaism and Jews, a philosophy and a people that has made MAJOR contributions to Mankind. I am a Jew. come and get my ass. I own no guns but my capacity for mischief will FUCK YOU UP if you start shit.

(803256)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 1 19:05:29 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 18:54:34 2011.

You KNOW I've got your back if you need it. :)

(803258)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 19:07:19 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 1 19:05:29 2011.

Thank You.

(803259)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 1 19:07:28 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 18:54:34 2011.

No one is advocating to get rid of Judaism or Jews, I do not favor screwing over one race over another however.
In Netherlands however the slaughtering of animals has always been heavely regulated, it has been abused by several religions , without getting appropriate permits(waivers).
Yes if its prohibited for Muslims , it will be prohibited for Jews, or Santaria for that matter.
It has been the opinion on this forum(specially Olog and Terp) however that Jews can do anything but others are all wrong as Terp would say.

(803277)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:25:05 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 18:54:34 2011.

Easy now . . . you're sounding too anti-EU.

(803278)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:25:34 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 18:54:34 2011.

Easy now . . . you're sounding too anti-EU.

And one thing I've never advocated is fascism, but you have, obliquely.

(803291)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 19:42:35 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 18:52:43 2011.

In that case one would ban all animal slaughter. At least it's equitable.

(803293)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:44:34 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 19:42:35 2011.

Yes, equal tyranny.

(803294)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 19:45:19 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 1 19:07:28 2011.

So you favor screwing over a human race in favor of an animal one?

In what way are the rights of Dutch HUMANS hurt by animals who are not stunned before slaughter?

(803295)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 1 19:45:32 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:25:34 2011.

Look who else is anti-EU:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/01/libya.war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(803305)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 1 19:58:53 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 19:45:19 2011.

We got laws you may not like, you got laws we don't like , live with it or move...

(803313)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:20:21 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:44:34 2011.

It's not tyrannical to ban meat if that's what the people through their properly-elected legislature want.

(803317)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:22:58 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Jul 1 19:58:53 2011.

I don't live there. And I do not agree with the sentiment that one should move if there are laws that one doesn't like. That is contrary to the spirit of democracy.

(803318)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 1 20:23:08 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:20:21 2011.

So prohibition was not tyrannical? We all know how well that worked out!

(803319)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 20:23:42 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 19:44:34 2011.

Religions can make modifications so that animals don't die such a horrible death.

Like modification were made and "Sabbath elevators" were introduced at Hospital for Special Surgery, as an example.

(803322)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 20:24:46 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 1 20:23:08 2011.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not Prohibition was a first attempt at imposition of Sharia laws on the USA . . .

(803323)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:24:56 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 1 20:23:08 2011.

Nope, not tyrannical. Not everything bad is tyrannical you know.

(803324)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 1 20:25:12 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 20:24:46 2011.

Sure was ... Sharia law by raging protestants ...

(803325)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:25:14 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 20:24:46 2011.

LOL!

(803326)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 1 20:26:11 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 1 20:23:42 2011.

You're sounding like a fringe type when it comes to animal slaughter.

And you got things backwards when it came to the Shabbat elevator.

(803327)

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Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 1 20:26:23 2011, in response to Re: Netherlands looking to ban Schechita (Kosher) slaughter (and some Halal), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 1 20:22:58 2011.

Actually, it's all about democracy and the freedom to move if you don't like the laws where you are. That's why I don't live in Califormia and I don't live in Florida.

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