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| Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? (267246) | |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:44:02 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Fred G on Thu Dec 6 05:21:07 2007. True, but there's no United White Boy College Fund for some smart, poor white kid living in an Arkansas trailer park. Harvard isn't actively seeking him out to demonstrate their commitment to diversity. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:45:38 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by BMT Guy on Wed Dec 5 21:47:40 2007. Are you kidding? What makes you think working class whites have anything more than working class minorities earning similar wages? |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:47:30 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 5 22:33:18 2007. True. Anyone with a brain will invest their winnings wisely. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:01:08 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:39:06 2007. I agree that they're similar, but there are different kinds of set asides. The federal set asides are for minority and women owned businesses, small companies, veterans, etc. There's room in that pie for nearly everyone. My WAG would be that over 75% of women owned businesses are really run by the husband and the wife is named as the owner to get the set asides.Where it gets really ridiculous is at the local level. For example in LA there are outreach and set asides for unemployed workers under 25 (of any race or sex). |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 12:05:38 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:01:08 2007. The federal set asides are for minority and women owned businesses, small companies, veterans, etc. Using race and gender as a factor in any contract should be illegal. It's certainly unfair. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:06:11 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:44:02 2007. There are lots of scholarships for poor kids and Harvard DOES consider the income of their students as part of their diversity program. Or at least they used to. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:41:16 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 6 11:13:33 2007. It happens. Suppose for example that you were looking for an apartment and stopped to check out a place that had balloons and signs advertising apartments for rent. Only when you talk to the sales representative you are told that they don't have any 2 bedrooms. They don't have any one bedrooms for rent either. The balloons and signs are permanently there just to attract attention. All they have is a 6 month waiting list for you to sign. A little strange, but you go on your way.The very next day while checking out a different apartment someone walks in to the sales office and says that they decided to move to the same apartment that you were at the day before. And to a 2 bedroom. They were told that there were several studios, 1-bedrooms, and 2-bedrooms available for immediate occupancy. There may be a couple of plausible explanations, but the most likely is discrimination. That's the kind of example that I'm talking about. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Dec 6 12:42:59 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:01:08 2007. For example in LA there are outreach and set asides for unemployed workers under 25 (of any race or sex).That's an example of a set-aside that actually makes sense. My LIRR/NYCT blog |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 12:46:14 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Dec 6 12:42:59 2007. Exactly. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Dec 6 12:46:50 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:41:16 2007. Oh. As that has happened, I know of what you're talking about now. But the chances of you knowing who moved in and knowing if they came in after you is pretty slim probably to have evidence. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Eric B on Thu Dec 6 13:26:47 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by BMT Guy on Wed Dec 5 21:47:40 2007. Thank you!Basically, it is all about BACKLASH. Because of the egregious racism of the 50's and before, plus the rest of the cultural upheaval (the wars, white kids rebelling against the phony "Father Knows Best" image of society, etc), there was a lineral revolution, with all the "reverse discrimination" programs, designed to try to make things even. It benefitted some, but by the 80's, there was then another backlash from the right now, that this was "unfair". Part of this was proclaiming the middle AND even upper class white male as the "real" victim, of not only unfair policies, but also public derision, and most importantly, TAXES; supposedly going to "social programs" beneffitting "undeserving, nonworking lazy minorities" who just blow it all on expensive clothes and jewelry. So over the past 25 years, with the conservatives screaming at campaing speeches, media figures from Morton Downey to Rush Limbaugh helping to sway the public consciousness, and finally the Republicans dominating (the "Reagan revolution", basically), a lot of those programs were overturned, or at least modified (workfare, etc). On the link someone posted on "reverse discrimination" cases; most of them were several years ago, now, with the number decreasing as you approach this year. So I don't understand what people are still complaining about. Meanwhile, the real problem in this country is the runaway "market", where prices go up, up, up. In the 70's, the cities were all allowed to decay, but all of a sudden now, all of these lots are being built up, and buildings fixed up or replaced; including whole neighborhoods, sometimes (Nets Arena plan, etc). And it is almost all condo's, most people cannot afford. Decades of neglect, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere comes all of this "development", but the people who suffered long in the inner city still suffer, by being forced out, now. In the 14 years since I have been married, over here in Ridgewood of all places; my rent has almost tripled, and many of the new apartments (that are still rentals), are almost double that! I think the system is screwing EVERYBODY, and we are all locked into pointing at each other from the past issues. So black leaders complain about the difficulty by screaming "racism", as if nothing changed from the sixties. Whites, who also find the cost of their standard of living increasingly hard to maintain, then continue to throw the blame back at the minorities, ironically telling them to stop "whining", and being lazy/wanting something for nothing; and that they are the ones still being robbed through taxes by the government for their sake, and now, "illegal immigrants" (from south of the border) are the new scapegoat. Both sides are blind; but I get more annoyed at the right, because they are the ones defending the very system screwing them, and actually blaming the least powerful instead. (while they don't even notice that they have almost solidly gotten their way in city, state and national elections; yet there is still a problem they are complaining about!) When the market makes it hard for minorities, while individuals with power can pull strings and make millions and billions, they tell them "that's the way the market is", and to stop whining, being lazy, etc. and pull their bootstraps like they did. However, when they stop and think of the fact that they are struggling too, that then is not the market, that is the "liberal" government overtaxing them and the companies raising the prices, and salaries of CEO's; with even the Republicans being called "too liberal; no different from the Democrats" by many (who then push for radical movements like the Constitution Party). So while they have us all pointing at each other with this played out "left vs. right" theme; nobody questions, yeah, just what is controlling this "market"? If education is the way to pull up your bootstraps, then why is that going up so much, where you already have to have a lot of money to get the credentials you need to be able to earn money? No; one side defends the market as if it was God, and blames "reverse racism" instead, and the other doesn't even seem to address the market at all, but just continues to blame the original racism. One thing that should make us think, is that Both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X preached for decades, angering the system. King helped force integration and equality, while Malcolm took a more critical approach, and taught Nation of Islam doctrine that whites were devils, and blacks should have their own nation. And all of this time, they were allowed to live. However; it was when both became disillusioned with their respective movements, and realized class was actually a bigger problem underlying the race issue; in which case they not only began moving towards each other ideologically, but also began looking to the same problems in rest of the world (beyond just minoroties in America); THAT was when they became "dangerous" enough to finally be eliminated! This should show us that this is the real issue we are being steered away from, and if politics seems deadlocked, with people unhappy with both parties, whom they see as "just alike—the same old thing"; it is because we are still locked into this whole "right-left" pattern, which is really just a smokescreen for the real power struggle. Right and left have always been two sides of the same coin, really. Communism was called "state capitalism". The government held all the power simply divided up by "private" business in this system. Fascism and Naziism are on the opposite ends of the spectrum from Communism/Socialism, even though they are ultimately so similar to each other. Focusing on race has kept the tension alive, with many blacks holding a lot of resentments, hip hop taking on an anti-white streak years ago (though influence of groups such as Five Percentism), and whites constantly feeling persecuted, and lashing back "we tried to help them, but they are still whining; maybe there really is something wrong with them after all" (hence "Bell Curve" theories surfacing at times, or "moral" judgments from many). Now, we have all of these racial attacks (from both sides to the other), and even a rsh of cross burnings and nooses and stuff. So it looks like we are actually going backwards in race relations, while cost of living continues to get harder for all. (and in all of this, the alarming issue of the future of health care not even being discussed!) So we all need to stop just going with the flow, and towing the party line and start asking some hard questions about what is really going on out here! |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Dec 6 13:37:32 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Eric B on Thu Dec 6 13:26:47 2007. *On the link someone posted on "reverse discrimination" cases; most of them were several years ago, now, with the number decreasing as you approach this year.*One reason for this could be that on an official level these policies have been disappearing. Affirmative Action in some states have ceased, and forced busing also. Although any company website will make whole webpages dedicated to EOE and "diversity in management". So I guess there's a difference if my manager isn't an incompetent white prick but a Cuban or Egyption now whose the same? *I think the system is screwing EVERYBODY* Exactly. Nowadays if someone screams racism or anything along those lines in how they're getting screwed, they get a backlash of people saying "look at us, you think YOU're getting screwed???!!??" Funny that equality comes from everyone getting it in the rear. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 6 13:38:46 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 6 11:45:38 2007. There are far more working class minorities, by % of their respective groups, than working class whites.That is, if you're black, you're far more likely to be working class than if you're white. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by BMT Guy on Thu Dec 6 19:48:20 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Clayton on Thu Dec 6 11:08:49 2007. If your job HAD to choose from a minority owned business that is odd. I can understand that a minority-owned business should be INCLUDED in the bidding process (and should not be indicated as such either). That would be the fair bidding practice. Might I ask WHAT City Agency you worked for during the summer, SIR Clayton? |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 6 20:10:41 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by BMT Guy on Thu Dec 6 19:48:20 2007. I thought they all did this practice. And then it becomes "big pat on the back" news. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Clayton on Thu Dec 6 20:37:16 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by BMT Guy on Thu Dec 6 19:48:20 2007. DEP, and yes, I would understand if they were to be INCLUDED but not to be the sole choice...but hey, since when does anything done in the City make sense? |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 6 21:34:47 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Clayton on Thu Dec 6 11:08:49 2007. "What do you think about being FORCED to choose minority owned businesses?"What do you think of minority owned businesses that for decades were shut out of any kind of city business because it only went to white businesses? Without some experience handling contracts, there's no way a business owner can gai the experience to make a living at it. White-owned businesses have had the advantage of personal relationships to help grease their way in. They know how and when to bid, who to talk to, and so on. Well, now minority business owners get a little set-aside so they can get that experience tooand level the playing field a bit. The % of total business that goes in that direction is not that large. Stop farting on about how unfair you think it is, because you haven't a clue about what unfair is. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 6 22:13:07 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 6 21:34:47 2007. Percentages limit opportunity too. When there's a quota, there's a cap. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Dand124 on Thu Dec 6 23:03:05 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 6 05:03:11 2007. Most lottery winners are idiots if the weren't they wouldn't have bought lottery tickets in the first place. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 6 23:28:03 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Dand124 on Thu Dec 6 23:03:05 2007. Including the winners? |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Dand124 on Thu Dec 6 23:36:47 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 6 23:28:03 2007. yes |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Thu Dec 6 23:47:04 2007, in response to Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Scrabbleship on Wed Dec 5 08:36:58 2007. I wonder how many "working class whites" live in the projects in Bed-Stuy or the South Bronx. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 6 23:50:04 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Forest Glen on Thu Dec 6 23:47:04 2007. What's that got to do with the issues here . . . ? |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 7 00:54:52 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Dec 6 22:13:07 2007. Yes, and appropriately so. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Dec 7 04:03:28 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Clayton on Thu Dec 6 11:08:49 2007. It's all relative. To some it might be "THE ENTIRE TONER CONTRACT" and to others it's just the fuckin toner, and not the entire repro contract or not the entire municipal/state budget. IME the set asides have been around 10%, sometimes 15. That leaves 85-90% of the budget for non-minority.I've been on same design teams as minority firms, some good, some not so good, about same rate as majority firms. It's not like they cherry pick the easy assignments nor get the lion's share of the work. On the plus side, it gives opportunity to firms who wouldn't ordinarily get any work but on the down side it also has been abused. I think that once a minority firm reaches a certain size or achieves a certain gross, they should be ineligible for set-asides so a smaller outfit can gain from them. My experience has been with large engineering firms and if it weren't for set asides, these firms would not have hired anyone other than white males. All that "we want the most qualified" talk is mostly crap IME. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Dec 7 10:42:07 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 6 23:50:04 2007. I was tacitly implying that working class whites still have it better than most blacks. They have a much higher chance of getting jobs and face less discrimination. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 7 10:44:05 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Dec 7 10:42:07 2007. And you'd be right. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Dec 7 11:09:38 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Dand124 on Thu Dec 6 23:03:05 2007. I dunno, it's hard for me to call a guy who turned a 2 dollah or a fi dollah ticket into a million bucks an idiot, but YMMV.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 7 11:45:07 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Easy on Thu Dec 6 12:06:11 2007. True, but those are usually open to all. What the white kid WON'T qualify for is a scholarship from a race-specific group, like the UNCF. In the end, the poor white kid, who's just as disadvantaged as any minority kid, will not have as many opportunities as a similarly intelligent black kid. And that fact makes what some of these neo-nazis are saying a little less ridiculous after a while. BTW, diversity is code for race or ethnicity, not economic status. Whenever you hear "a commitment to diversity", it usually means increasing minority representation, even if it means suspending the concept of merit. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Dec 7 11:55:31 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 7 11:45:07 2007. Forget scholarships, there are programs that cut you a check just because you're a certain pigment every semester.I remember once on a bus, a black girl was talking about this to white girl co-riders. The bus was going to that train station you took pics of where you were too scared to walk around past the tracks. Come on. They say that since Jeb gutted quotas in colleges, "minority" enrollment has gone up. I put it in quotes, because in Florida, I don't know how the heck you can call anyone a minority. It's like Deep Space Nine(the show), I got all 50 states, and countries. The only majority appears to be illegal, or foreign second home owners. |
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Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 7 17:24:51 2007, in response to Re: Working-class Whites: The real second-class citizens?, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Dec 7 11:55:31 2007. A "minority" group does not mean that that group is actually a minority of the population. If that were the case, then Jews would be a minority group. |
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