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Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025 After almost 35 years of Delta Air Lines will be ending service from JFK to Brussels. It will be increasing the frequency of its Brussels flights from Atlanta “to better align with customer demand.” That’s corporate babble which is a polite way of saying that Atlanta is a dynamic city with a magnificent future before it, while NYC wallows in self pity while desperately clutching onto past glories Norma Desmond-style. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 13 01:50:15 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. Atlanta is their hub airport so it makes sense.Yeah, travel patterns are always changing. I think you should take a trip to Italy. See the Collosseum. Ride the Rome Metro. Then go to Calabria and go swimming in the Mediterranean. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:55:05 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 13 01:50:15 2025. I was in Rome, some years back. It was interesting but really touristy. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 13 02:55:47 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:55:05 2025. Did you ride the Rome Metro?Did you visit other cities? Do you speak any Italian? My ancestry is Calabrian and Barese. The Calabrian explains a lot. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Sep 13 03:52:43 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. Or, maybe Delta has a substantial hub in Boston, filling empty seats with connecting traffic/passengers there. JFK is mostly originating traffic hub and the bean counters decided they weren't making a profit or filling enough seats to sustain that route.The Lurkers' Guild Delta ain't ready when you are/Fly Delta Jets on cortelyounext recommendation |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 13 06:55:25 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. I'm sorry but there's a lot being left out here.Even just since Covid check out how many JFK nonstops to Europe have been added, especially with JetBlue. Delta found places it wanted to go (nonstop from JFK at least) instead of Brussels. The new flight from JFK to Catania is more helpful than the old flight to Brussels since Brussels can be accessed in 2 hours by train from either Amsterdam or Paris. Catania does not have that same access. Delta also took away its JFK-Munich flight last year but goes daily to Berlin since May 2023. After a while you have to decide to rely on your reliable multiple-daily corridors to provide smooth connections (perhaps through partner airlines) to very specific, lower-demand locations. (And of course Brussels and Munich are still available non-stop with European-based airlines). ATL is a hub. It's feeding multiple cities' passengers onto one plane out to Europe. They can draw easier from Florida, Texas, etc. ATL is like JFK/LGA put into one with one airline practically running the show. They have the space and topography to have 5 parallel runways at one airport. NY has other things going on. Obviously I wish NYC could have every airline offering nonstops everywhere but you'd need practically unlimited airport capacity. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Sep 13 07:58:30 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. Do you really not understand why ATL is such an effective hub, or are you just pretending not to? |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 08:27:09 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. Cities rise and cities fall. At the hands of the people who elected bill diblasio, alvin scumbragg, and dinkins II Adams, nyc is in a death spiral. But i don't see salvation for Atlanta either. They've elected phoney fani willis and the lovely stacey abrams. Soon the writing will be on the wall for atlanta, st. Louis, baltimore, chicago, memphis and the rest. Leftism is the embodiment of the true trojan horse. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Sep 13 08:52:26 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. BullshitSo this service began in 1990? Big deal. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Sat Sep 13 08:55:28 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. Or maybe New York isn’t the center of the universe and Delta can get higher yields through Atlanta because the O&D demand from New York isn’t there especially with alliance with Air France and KLM people can take the train.Atlanta also allows for less weather/volume related misconnections and for most Delta flyers does not substantially impact flight times. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:13:45 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 08:27:09 2025. Atlanta itself has a great deal of poverty and crime but it’s a relatively small part of the metro area. Some of the suburbs are excellent, |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:15:56 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 13 06:55:25 2025. That makes sense, but the service to Brussels is not a new route that hasn’t worked out. It’s been around since 1991. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 13 09:18:41 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by mtk52983 on Sat Sep 13 08:55:28 2025. If LGA and JFK were the same airport (or if there was a super-seamless link between them to the extent that both airports could be used on one itinerary), it would be different. Delta, especially with the market share they have now, would probably run a lot more passenger connections through New York, saving passengers time and mileage. But as it stands now, even I wouldn't dare bet on any reliability making a connection between JFK/LGA/EWR. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 13 09:29:36 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:15:56 2025. FWIW, I took the flight in question (JFK to Brussels) once for leisure purposes. But how did I get back home a week later? A KLM flight out of Amsterdam. On the same itinerary. Because in Brussels on vacation, it's almost silly to not to visit (usually fully switch to) some other major city eventually.While having breakfast in Brussels, you can usually -- there on the spot -- choose whether you want to have lunch in London, Paris, Amsterdam, or even Cologne and use only trains. My point for the purposes of this thread is that at least for leisure travelers, a flight out to Brussels does not necessarily mean a return from there (it's less likely than say Catania or some of the other places that are not close to other cities), and I wonder if that also has something to do with the decision. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 09:29:43 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:13:45 2025. Cancers brgin as small spots and grow . |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 10:49:09 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 09:29:43 2025. Urban troubles in Atlanta do not have much effect on most residents of the metro area. Chances are they live in one high quality suburb and work in another, rarely venturing into the city itself. If they do work downtown they drive into work and park in secure employee lots of garages. They might venture into the busy, well-policed downtown streets at lunch but don't venture into the bad areas or use transit. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 11:02:38 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 10:49:09 2025. Tjat sounds like the NY City of the 1970s |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 13 11:12:17 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sat Sep 13 08:27:09 2025. Unfortunately, I agree. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 13 11:13:54 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:13:45 2025. Yeah, because NYC doesn't have any wealthy suburbs 🙄 |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 00:10:06 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 09:15:56 2025. Hasn’t worked out? |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 00:11:13 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 10:49:09 2025. You’re so full of it |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 00:11:53 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 13 11:13:54 2025. None |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 14 01:12:49 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Sep 13 06:55:25 2025. Of course.The OP just likes to hear himself talk. He also must like inviting abuse on himself here. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 09:47:46 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 00:10:06 2025. If the Brussels service was getting enough passengers it wouldn’t be cancelled after more than 30 years. If you look at the circumstances of the cancellation it sure seems as if the only logical explanation is New York’s decline in importance.- Delta’s ability to gather connecting passengers onto its Brussels flight in Atlanta is nothing new. Atlanta has long been its hub. - There hasn’t been any increase in service to Brussels out of New York so no new competition. There is one daily flight from JFK on Brussels Airlines and one out of Newark (for the sake of argument I’ll count it as a NY airport) on United, just as before. - The easy rail connections to Brussels from Paris and Amsterdam and elsewhere, making flying into one of those cities an easy alternative to a direct Brussels flight, have been around for many years. - As far as I know, there have been no developments in Brussels or the rest of Belgium that might have reduced demand for flights. No changed circumstances yet a cancelled flight. The blame has got to be with New York. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Sep 14 10:31:05 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 09:47:46 2025. the only logical explanation is New York’s decline in importance.The other possible explanation is Brussels' decline in importance. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 13:18:09 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by AlM on Sun Sep 14 10:31:05 2025. Can’t be, Al. Only New York is in decline in Mr. Rosa’s world. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 14 13:25:36 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 13:18:09 2025. I wonder if he went to Catholic school? |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 14 13:51:17 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by AlM on Sun Sep 14 10:31:05 2025. Now that I agree with. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 13:58:34 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by AlM on Sun Sep 14 10:31:05 2025. Brussels and indeed all of Belgium don’t get much attention in the US, so I suppose it’s possible that travel demand has declined, but I still believe it’s more likely due to New York’s decline. Along with ending JFK service Delta will be increasing its frequencies from Atlanta.That increased service does not compensate for the loss of JFK service. Passengers originating in New York certainly aren’t going to backtrack to Atlanta. Either they’ll go on Brussels Airlines, head over to Newark for United, or fly to Amsterdam (ample service from JFK) and catch the train. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 14 14:04:06 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 13:58:34 2025. What is your point?That people from Belgium are no longer coming to NYC because it's in decline? or, Americans of status who fly to places like Belgium, no longer live in the NY area? |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Sep 14 14:11:53 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 13:58:34 2025. I suppose it’s possible that travel demand has declinedDon't forget also that all travel demand by Europeans to the US has declined this year for the obvious reason. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Sep 14 14:53:15 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 13:58:34 2025. I believe Delta has cut service on other routes in direct competition with Lufthansa Group (which Brussels Airlines is a part of) and its partners. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Sep 14 14:55:23 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 09:47:46 2025. Brussels Airlines operates one frequency per day between JFK and BRU year round. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 15:06:18 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 14 13:25:36 2025. The nuns would have clocked him for being such a pessimist. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 15:09:57 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 14 14:04:06 2025. It's that New York has declined enough in significance that it no longer merits its own service (as opposed to service from hubs with connections like Atlanta) to secondary foreign destinations. There are enough passengers from New York to Paris or Amsterdam for Delta to fill seats on nonstop flights. There *used to be* enough Brussels passengers to fill seats, it was that way for almost 35 years, but no longer.While US travel by residents of Europe has declined, there are still enough of them for Delta to increase its Atlanta service |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Sep 14 15:13:31 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 15:09:57 2025. Did Steve sailer tell you this? |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Sep 15 06:29:38 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Sep 14 14:53:15 2025. Yes, and going a step further as I mentioned earlier Delta offers nonstop JFK to Berlin while Lufthansa itself does not even do that. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Sep 15 09:00:56 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Sep 14 15:09:57 2025. I don't know the passenger count history but there are any number of reasons why Atlanta may be chosen over New York. I'm not saying all of these are definite, but just possible:1) Delta, while it has a very diverse fleet, actually does not currently have a narrow-body option to cross the Atlantic with. It relies heavily on wide-bodies (B767, A330, A350) to get to and from Europe. American and JetBlue are in a position to fill lower-demand routes (and actually I would not be surprised at all if JetBlue tries to fly an A321 into Brussels). Delta requires a higher demand to make a flight worth it. 2) As I've hinted at before, flying from New York relies heavily on New York itself. People must be considering New York as an actual destination. New York is pressured as such because it is not the best place to change planes to continue onward (because JFK and LGA are not the same place). Atlanta does not need to be such a destination, because all it needs to do is be a convenient place to change planes to go on to more western parts of the US. There's no pressure (or not the same pressure) on Atlanta to be an actual place people want to go. 3) Since ATL is a hub, Delta has more planes available there and can more easily select the model it wants to send across to Europe. JFK may also have some variety but not the same. If Delta wants to switch its Brussels flight from a B767 to an A330 or something like that, it can do so much more easily from Atlanta -- that's operational flexibility, nothing to do with New York being a bad place. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 09:09:07 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Sep 15 06:29:38 2025. Lufthansa's long haul hubs are in Frankfurt and Munich. If you want to fly Lufthansa long haul, you go through one of those two cities.United has a daily nonstop between Berlin and Newark, and there is revenue sharing between United and Lufthansa on that route. Delta's Berlin flight appears to be seasonal. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Sep 15 12:32:39 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Sep 15 09:00:56 2025. Timing did not work in New York’s favor. JFK (and of course LaGuardia) were built before the hub and spoke model was the dominant mode of air travel. It would have been far better if JFK had been designed differently, so that it could handle the shorter distance domestic traffic that now goes to LaGuardia in addition to its long haul foreign and west coast traffic, but no one could have foreseen the future.At this point there don’t appear to be any easy solutions to the lack of true hub status at JFK. Even Jet Blue’s operations are not an actual hub. If New Yorkers ever would accept that Newark is actually a New York airport they’d be able to take solace that there’s at least one true hub serving the city (United), but that would be a huge psychological change that’ll never happen. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Sep 15 14:26:02 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Sep 15 12:32:39 2025. JFK is not in the right location in the United States to be a major hub. It's not really related to NYC as a city.Consider Seattle. Construction on SeaTac was started in 1943 when there was absolutely nothing between Seattle and Tacoma. The runways are nice and long. Yet it's not a major hub because it's not central enough. Hover over JFK and make a 360 degree pivot. There are cities which are ideal as spoke cities for only about 200 degrees of arc, from Providence to Philadelphia. Seattle of course is much worse. Compare to Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, and Chicago, where there are good spoke cities over a 360 degree arc. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Sep 15 15:49:59 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by AlM on Mon Sep 15 14:26:02 2025. While JFK’s location is not ideal for a hub American Airlines has a huge hub 90 miles away in Philadelphia and United has one even closer in Newark. Speaking of Newark Airport, I concede that while to New Yorkers it might as well be in Wyoming it’s the hometown airport for the millions of residents in northern and central New Jersey.In addition to creating jobs, hubs are a major source of civic pride. Atlanta residents, maybe the biggest civic boosters in the country, take immense pride from having the world’s busiest airport, never mind the fact that many of the passengers just change Delta flights and never leave the airport. Note: Seattle is the main hub and corporate HQ for Alaska Airlines. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Sep 15 16:43:17 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Sep 15 15:49:59 2025. Speaking of Newark Airport, I concede that while to New Yorkers it might as well be in Wyoming it’s the hometown airport for the millions of residents in northern and central New Jersey.I live equidistant from Newark and JFK, and closer to LGA than either of those. I pick the airport which is most convenient for my trip. It's usually not Newark even when LGA is out of the question because it's more time consuming (and also there is more variability in the duration of the trip) for EWR than JFK. Now if I lived on the island of Long Island or in Westchester, Newark would be even more inconvenient relatively speaking. With GCT Madison, public transit from Westchester to JFK is now pretty straightforward. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 15 20:31:35 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Sep 15 12:32:39 2025. WAPR |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Sep 15 23:19:05 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 15 20:31:35 2025. HaahhahahaE P I C |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Dand124 on Tue Sep 16 00:25:42 2025, in response to Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Sep 13 01:39:21 2025. JFK is slot controlled Delta needs to a cut a flight in order to add one elsewhere, they've even built up a second Trans-Atlantic hub in Boston as a result. |
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Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 16 00:45:33 2025, in response to Re: Another aviation example of New York’s decline, posted by Dand124 on Tue Sep 16 00:25:42 2025. Sad thing is, he could have looked that up for himself but didn't bother. |
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