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| Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds (1731458) | |
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Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 11:06:08 2020 Drug touted by Trump as Covid-19 treatment linked to a greater risk of death, study findsThis doesn't appear to be a randomized double-blind study, so a fair explanation is that people prescribed hydroxychloroquine were more likely to die or suffer ill effects than people prescribed nothing, or prescribed something else. But it does pour cold water over the idea that hydroxychloroquine is a miracle cure. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Fri May 22 11:10:30 2020, in response to Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 11:06:08 2020. Heavy hearts soared Monday with news that Moderna’s Covid-19 vaccine candidate — the frontrunner in the American market — seemed to be generating an immune response in Phase 1 trial subjects. The company’s stock valuation also surged, hitting $29 billion, an astonishing feat for a company that currently sells zero products.But was there good reason for so much enthusiasm? Several vaccine experts asked by STAT concluded that, based on the information made available by the Cambridge, Mass.-based company, there’s really no way to know how impressive — or not — the vaccine may be. While Moderna blitzed the media, it revealed very little information — and most of what it did disclose were words, not data. That’s important: If you ask scientists to read a journal article, they will scour data tables, not corporate statements. With science, numbers speak much louder than words. === I wonder what AOC and Greta and Clearaspect have to say. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by AlM on Fri May 22 11:56:10 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Fri May 22 11:10:30 2020. Moderna's vaccine is a cause for hope. So is remdesivir. So are lots of other things that haven't gotten as much press.I think the real good news is that so many possibilities are showing promise. We don't know which one or ones will ultimately be a major factor, but there's a very good chance one or more of them will be. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 22 11:58:09 2020, in response to Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 11:06:08 2020. Yeah, an improperly-conducted "study". Never mind LOL CNN. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 22 15:30:54 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by AlM on Fri May 22 11:56:10 2020. Moderna's vaccine is a cause for hope. So is remdesivir. So are lots of other things that haven't gotten as much press.I think the real good news is that so many possibilities are showing promise. We don't know which one or ones will ultimately be a major factor, but there's a very good chance one or more of them will be. That makes lot of sense.Thank you! |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri May 22 15:42:36 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 22 11:58:09 2020. Didn't they have Greta Thunberg PHD oversee the study? |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Fri May 22 18:40:20 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri May 22 15:30:54 2020. There's a point where it starts sounding like High-speed rail or commuter train studies to me, and I hear the same thing over and over for 45 years with nothing happening.Personally I hope the Israeli stuff works. Not so much for any ethnic pride, they already do enough, I just want the anti-Semites and the iranians to eat it. Plus, I'm afraid of unintended consequences from a rushed vaccine elsewhere personally. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat May 23 04:53:55 2020, in response to Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 11:06:08 2020. By itself it pretty much does nothing, however the study with zinc is promising.I don't get how azithromycin is supposed to help in all this... |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 08:50:59 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat May 23 04:53:55 2020. Here's a link to the actual study. You will note that Dr. Rahimian's name appears in both the ny1 report and as an author in the medrxiv article.In the actual study the important caveat is: Clinical Trial this is a retrospective observational study and therefor not a clinical trial I don't get how azithromycin is supposed to help in all this.. Azithromycin is an antiviral drug. Hydroxychloroquine isn't or is a very weak one. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 09:09:34 2020, in response to Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 22 11:06:08 2020. Here's a link to the Lancet article.This doesn't appear to be a randomized double-blind study, That is correct.It's a retrospective study of hospital admissions and outcomes. There's an extensive explanation of how the hospital admissions were chosen. Essentially, they chose all admissions from several countries from a standard database. The extensive inclusion of all data circumvents the need for a random sample. There's no need for a small randomized sample, if all the data is analyzed. That's possible thanks to computers, computerized hospital records, and cloud based storage of those hospital records. a fair explanation is that people prescribed hydroxychloroquine were more likely to die or suffer ill effects than people prescribed nothing, or prescribed something else. They the disease to its conclusion: death or cure. So, it did measure the drug's modest efficacy as well as its increased mortality. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 09:19:46 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 09:09:34 2020. The extensive inclusion of all data circumvents the need for a random sample.In this case I would agree. Obviously, for other things it matters. If you are polling a close political race, you could ask half the population, but if you ask a biased sample you will get the wrong answer by a bunch of points. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 09:56:59 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 09:19:46 2020. The extensive inclusion of all data circumvents the need for a random sample.In this case I would agree. We're so used to analyzing all the data, that we sometimes forget how we used to analyze data. There's an annual Manhattan mobility report that shows the average vehicle speed within the CBD. They use the taxi cab trip data. The taxi trip data can be downloaded off the web. I wanted to verify the calculated average vehicle speed. I discovered there was so many trips over the course of a year, that I could not use a simple database technique. It took me a while to figure out how to tackle the problem. I'd completely forgotten the BC (before computers) days. I left the downloaded data as csv files and did a random sample from the text files. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 11:07:09 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 22 11:58:09 2020. It's amazing how much the leftists have invested in this topic. Obsessed even isn't a proper word anymore. It's nuts |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat May 23 11:20:42 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 11:07:09 2020. Hydroxychloroquine now due to presidential promotion is called Imbecillen. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 11:38:31 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 11:07:09 2020. The President of the United States is recommending a dangerous drug.Should we be saying, oh yeah, that's OK? |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 11:42:46 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 11:38:31 2020. I think that the timeline was that conservatives on the internet, then Fox, and then the President were saying that it was a potential game changer that may allow everything to open back up. But regarding how dangerous, isn't it already an approved FDA drug? I thought that what was being questioned were the effectiveness and potential misuse of the drug. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sat May 23 12:17:35 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 11:42:46 2020. But regarding how dangerous, isn't it already an approved FDA drug?FDA approval is not a blessing for mass consumption. There are FDA-approved drugs that are well known to cause serious and permanent side effects. For example, neuroleptics given to patients with schizophrenia will leave some of them with irreversible movement disorders like tardive dyskinesia. You don't want anyone taking such drugs who doesn't really need them. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:25:33 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Sat May 23 12:17:35 2020. You do realize that it requires a prescription? People weren't going to be buying this drug at 7-Eleven. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 12:38:44 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:25:33 2020. Are you not aware of this because Trump and Fox couldn't shut their mouths:Surge |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 12:51:01 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 11:42:46 2020. It's dangerous, but so are malaria and lupus. The FDA has approved it for those illnesses, obviously under close medical supervision. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:57:28 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 12:38:44 2020. First of all, this is so ridiculous that it barely warrants a response. But I reviewed both the article and the study that it links so here are my comments:- the article and the study are only about online searches not people actually buying the drug - the percentage increase sounds remarkable, but it's only an increase from hundreds of searches per day to thousands of searches per day - it could be only a few hundred people searching multiple times - it includes people with valid and current reasons for having a prescription that are worried about their supply - the dates that they tracked the number of searches were selected to prove a hypothesis in a very flawed manner. They searched on Feb 1 and then after Elon Musk commented on March 16 and concluded that the increase was entirely due to Musk's endorsement. The fact is that it was very likely trending up for weeks as the drug was making the rounds on conservative websites and media. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 13:09:52 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 12:51:01 2020. Covid is also dangerous. I think that the issue is not that the drug is dangerous, the issue is that it doesn't appear to work and may even be harmful.IIRC the original sources claiming that this drug was effective were doctors in Italy. It could be that the lesson is to not put too much faith in anecdotal medical stories from the internet. Or maybe just ones from doctors in Italy, because other anecdotal treatment stories did get some traction, such as the improvised intubators. I do find it distressing that so many, like the President, are sticking with it even given what we know. Just as distressing are the way that so many people lined up based on political ideology. I think that many on the right was grasping at straws because they were desperate to reopen. I also think that the many on the left, especially CNN, were just as desperate for this to fail, perhaps for political reasons. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 13:38:08 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 13:09:52 2020. I think that the issue is not that the drug is dangerous, the issue is that it doesn't appear to work and may even be harmful.It's the combination. No one would be anywhere near as hot and bothered if Trump were recommending 5 grams of sugar for covid. I don't see anyone desperate for it to fail. They are just outraged that Trump is pushing it without supporting evidence. Two months ago there were at least 50 unproven possibilities that were just as promising as chloroquine. They all deserve careful investigation. Trump pushing one of them is seriously outrageous. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 14:16:40 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 13:38:08 2020. You probably have a small circle and don't watch mass television news like CNN, so you ay not have seen much of people wanting it to fail. But you have seen it because it happened here. The first stories of it being successful were anecdotal and were reported by doctors in Europe, specifically Italy. Then Trump caught wind and mentioned it. People started to post about it here and were attacked. All before there were any studies about its lack of effectiveness. People on the left knew that Trump suggested that it might work and that's all that they needed to oppose it.And if you watched CNN, you would have seen them rooting for it to fail. Not openly, but you have to watch how they report it. How they word questions when they ask expert opinions. That goes for anything. You can see their reporters frown whenever an expert either agrees with Trump or doesn't outright contradict him. They lose interest in follow up and the interview is over. That's how they rooted for this to fail. I'm guessing that other television and internet media was the same. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Dave on Sat May 23 14:33:54 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat May 23 11:20:42 2020. I love this! |
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Posted by Dave on Sat May 23 14:35:03 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 11:38:31 2020. Any drug can be dangerous when misused. Presumably Trump is taking hydro while being supervised by his doctor. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 14:38:05 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 11:42:46 2020. Yes. It is. That's a leftist hysteria obsession talking point. |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 14:38:38 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:25:33 2020. It's insane!!! Exactly!! |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 14:39:40 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:57:28 2020. Thank you for being a voice of reason |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 15:38:29 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Dave on Sat May 23 14:35:03 2020. I don't object to his taking an unproven dangerous drug. I object to his making public that he is taking an unproven dangerous drug. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 23 16:07:25 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 11:07:09 2020. Its bordering on the pathologic. But then, liberalism is a mental disorder |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:23:35 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 12:57:28 2020. ShortageShortage2 Are you still in denial ??? |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:24:06 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 23 14:38:38 2020. Ignorance is Bliss. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:28:04 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:23:35 2020. "On Tuesday, March 31, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) posted information regarding shortages of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to its drug shortages webpage. The shortages are due to a significant surge in demand. The FDA shared the following:" |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:28:19 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:23:35 2020. Shortage1"On Tuesday, March 31, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) posted information regarding shortages of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to its drug shortages webpage. The shortages are due to a significant surge in demand. The FDA shared the following:" |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:29:24 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 13:38:08 2020. Not only pushing it, but "What have you got to lose" |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:30:24 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 14:16:40 2020. CNN does not make up medical study results - they REPORT them. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:31:25 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Dave on Sat May 23 14:35:03 2020. He can get an EKG at the snap of the fingers to monitor.The general public cannot, yet he promotes it with "what have you got to lose". |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 16:42:44 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:30:24 2020. They mostly report opinions. For a few weeks they spent a good chunk of each day interviewing medical professionals asking them what they thought of Trump promoting this drug. Keep in mind that what Trump said at first was something along the lines of "he's heard good things and is hopeful that it works" and was before any studies. They asked very leading questions that indicated what they hoped the answer would be. Very occasionally the professional would t be critical and you could see the irritation and surprise in their faces. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:46:27 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 16:42:44 2020. Had you paid attention, they report FINDINGs of several medical studies, such as it increases the mortality rate. Those are not "opinions". |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 16:51:00 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:46:27 2020. I know, but we are discussing what they report and specifically what they reported before the study was released. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 23 18:54:26 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 14:16:40 2020. You’re not getting it. We know that Trump is a fool and a demagogue and so we know that any prescription he makes is going to be bullshit. So it’s not about wishing that he’s wrong, it’s about us knowing that he’s wrong. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 23 19:01:09 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 16:24:06 2020. Then you must be in paradise |
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Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 23 19:08:05 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 23 18:54:26 2020. Ah so you went to the Bingbong medical school, too. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 23 19:31:38 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Train Dude on Sat May 23 19:08:05 2020. Nothing to do with medicine. |
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Posted by Easy on Sat May 23 19:54:51 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 23 18:54:26 2020. We weren't discussing his prescription in this subthread. Of course that's bogus. I wouldn't even bet that he's really taking it. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat May 23 20:48:23 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Easy on Sat May 23 19:54:51 2020. His Dr. alluded to the possibility that the president is taking it as a prophylactic drug due to recent contacts. As such, despite the learned opinio s of joey and al, I am under the misconception that liberals believe in decisions between doctor and patient as in the case of abortion, or that a patient should be able to elect unproven treatments such as medical Marijuana if they choose. I guess al and joey v only believe liberals are entitled to those considerations. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat May 23 21:54:41 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 15:38:29 2020. Did he suggest to anyone that they should take it on their own? Any moron that takes it on their own w/o doctor supervision or approval fall into the same category as those that ingested or injected bleach or Lysol. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 22:36:33 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 15:38:29 2020. "Donnie, time for your pill-pill!". |
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Posted by AlM on Sun May 24 04:44:57 2020, in response to Re: Hydroxychloroquine linked to a greater risk of death, study finds?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat May 23 21:54:41 2020. He's the President of the United States, not somebody hawking stuff on the Home Shopping Network. Telling the world he's doing it become a de facto recommendation. It's not an overreaction to say that what he said was profoundly stupid. |
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