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| Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews (1635059) | |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Jun 26 19:52:14 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 26 19:30:01 2019. Cool. I'll balance that out soon, if I haven't already. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Jun 26 19:55:53 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 26 19:19:47 2019. That's why I think it's a whole bunch of bullshit. I can't believe they have things like this in place because people just can't like civil to one another. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Jun 26 19:56:12 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 26 19:21:04 2019. Nope! |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 26 23:43:15 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 26 19:21:04 2019. I had to treat neo-Nazis as a medic, knowing full well that they might recover to one day come back and beat the daylights out of me for being gay.I did my job anyway. Yes, I know that's preservation of human life, but still... |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Jun 27 02:26:56 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 26 23:43:15 2019. That's different than making a cake or not. Someones life is at state (a piece of garbage or not) |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 03:00:55 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 26 23:43:15 2019. Not an apt comparison. Nobody is going to literally die if they don’t get a cake from a particular baker. A better comparison would be someone who goes into a bakery and the baker won’t even sell product in the display cases because of some characteristic of the Purchaser versus being asked to make a custom piece for a particular event. The latter implicates the First Amendment rights of the baker in his/her artwork. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jun 27 03:14:06 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 26 19:19:47 2019. What he said. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Jun 27 03:33:11 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 26 13:07:34 2019. He already did. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 03:59:27 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 03:00:55 2019. What about a custom wedding cake that in some way is clearly and obviously Jewish? Like having a little groom wearing a yarmulke? Is a baker allowed to refuse that on the grounds that it violates their religious beliefs to celebrate a religious ceremony that doesn't accept Jesus Christ as the savior of the world? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:44 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Easy on Wed Jun 26 19:31:52 2019. What you're describing is one step before "refusing to sell". The baker is refusing to create the product in the first place. That's still a case of the baker forcing his or her religious beliefs on the customer.Suppose a Jewish customer came into the bakery requesting a Bar Mitzvah cake, but the baker refuses because the message also conflicts with his or her own religious beliefs. Would that be OK versus making a gay wedding cake, or transgender cake? The comparison of "being forced to carry non-Halal or un-Kosher products" is not an apt one, because the ingredients in the hypothetical cakes are the same, but it's the writing on them that is an issue. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:45 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Easy on Wed Jun 26 19:31:52 2019. What you're describing is one step before "refusing to sell". The baker is refusing to create the product in the first place. That's still a case of the baker forcing his or her religious beliefs on the customer.Suppose a Jewish customer came into the bakery requesting a Bar Mitzvah cake, but the baker refuses because the message also conflicts with his or her own religious beliefs. Would that be OK versus making a gay wedding cake, or transgender cake? The comparison of "being forced to carry non-Halal or un-Kosher products" is not an apt one, because the ingredients in the hypothetical cakes are the same, but it's the writing on them that is an issue. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:45 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Easy on Wed Jun 26 19:31:52 2019. What you're describing is one step before "refusing to sell". The baker is refusing to create the product in the first place. That's still a case of the baker forcing his or her religious beliefs on the customer.Suppose a Jewish customer came into the bakery requesting a Bar Mitzvah cake, but the baker refuses because the message also conflicts with his or her own religious beliefs. Would that be OK versus making a gay wedding cake, or transgender cake? The comparison of "being forced to carry non-Halal or un-Kosher products" is not an apt one, because the ingredients in the hypothetical cakes are the same, but it's the writing on them that is an issue. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:02:34 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 03:59:27 2019. Or a Bar Mitzvah cake... I just used that example... |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:05:11 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 03:59:27 2019. My personal opinion is that nobody is legally required to make a custom cake, but they can’t discriminate regarding who buys their “off the shelf” products. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:15:31 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:05:11 2019. Isn't that akin to saying, "We take custom orders except if you belong to certain groups"?If your business is a place of public accommodation, and you offer a specific service, shouldn't that service be available to all paying customers? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 04:16:38 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:05:11 2019. Of course, this leads you to the slippery slope of exactly which custom services can be legally refused. Cakes are obviously no big deal other than symbolically, whereas life saving service clearly are a huge deal. But there's a large set of services in between those two.How about fixing a synagogue's van (complex problem involving diagnostics)? If you fix that van, you are using the talents God bestowed on you to aid people in the celebration of a false God. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:24:54 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 03:00:55 2019. Oh, and under Trump, doctors and hospitals CAN refuse to treat patients who conflict with their beliefs, e.g., LGBTQ people.This also means a Catholic hospital can refuse to admit a Jewish patient because they don't believe in the Holy Trinity. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:27:28 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:15:31 2019. Not when it infringes on other Constitutional rights of the baker. Just because (s)he opens a shop does not mean that all other rights are thrown out the window. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:29:35 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:27:28 2019. So, then, if a Greyhound bus operator finds LGBTQ passengers objectionable to his religious beliefs, he is protected under the First Amendment if he refuses to carry them? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:32:23 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 04:16:38 2019. The central question is what Constitutional rights of the business owner are being infringed. With the custom cake you have First Amendment rights regarding the artistry. Fixing a van, I don’t see any rights of the repair shop owner being infringed. Probably the toughest question with same sex marriages are florists and photographers. I am really not sure how I would rule in that hypothetical because at least with bakers you have a clear dividing line between stock cakes/baked goods and customization. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:33:12 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:29:35 2019. Nope. First Amendment protects the artistry of a custom cake, not stock cakes/baked goods. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:39:17 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:33:12 2019. If that's the case, can said Greyhound bus operator refuse to drive a bus with a Gay Pride wrap because its "artistry" offends his religious beliefs? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:51:01 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:39:17 2019. The employment contract with Greyhound would come into play there and if driver was terminated for refusing to drive the bus I don’t think he would prevail in a lawsuit related to the termination because driver did not create the wrap so there would be standing/privity of contract issues. |
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They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 27 04:56:02 2019, in response to Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Jun 26 11:16:15 2019. Cut the crap. The LGBTQ community has itself been guilty of anti-Semitism and exclusionary behavior. They're no angels. Remember this?https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/d-c-dyke-march-barred-jewish-pride-flag-lgbtq-space-ncna1015786 Its a silly comparison anyway. Anti-Semitism exists separate and apart from ordinary hatreds. LGBTQ people could be accepted universally and people would still hate Jews. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jun 27 04:58:18 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:45 2019. I think that the key word is “create”. Creating something that you find objectionable is completely different than selling something off the shelf. I think that’s a distinction that all of your examples are missing. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:00:01 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:51:01 2019. An actual case:City busses and trains carried advertisements of plus sized women in bras and panties for a national chain. Drivers had to operate those big sdes and trains but hanging those pictures in crew quarters was deemed to be sexual harassment when female employees complained. I find your explanation totally on point. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:01:56 2019, in response to They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 27 04:56:02 2019. We see that same anti-Semitic behaving r by a member of the LBTGQXYZ community here, on a daily basis. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 05:06:51 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:32:23 2019. Fixing a van, I don’t see any rights of the repair shop owner being infringed.He believes he is using his creative abilities (he is REALLY good at diagnosing difficult engine problems) to further the work of Satan. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Jun 27 05:14:50 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:45 2019. Another problem with the halal/kosher example is that the businesses will be forced to sell things they specifically say they are not selling. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 05:16:38 2019, in response to They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 27 04:56:02 2019. I disagree. LGBTQ people have been "easy to hate" for centuries. I think it will be another century before LGBTQ people gain full equality.In any case, I was pointing out that the same justification used to refuse or exclude LGBTQ people, can also be applied to other groups, as the OP demonstrates. I do believe Judaism will gain universal acceptance before LGBTQ people do. Even in Judaism, there are those who see bring LGBTQ as wrong, and exclude those individuals from Jewish life. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 05:17:15 2019, in response to Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:01:56 2019. No, you don't, troll. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 05:17:44 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 05:06:51 2019. There is a difference between subjective belief and objective fact. The former is insufficient to raise a First Amendment defense in this hypothetical. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Jun 27 05:18:10 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 04:32:23 2019. What about a car/van customizer? Suppose a gay or Jewish person wants a non-political or -religious design (e.g., flames on the car). Does the customizer have the right to deny the service? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 05:19:19 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Easy on Thu Jun 27 04:58:18 2019. So creating a bar mitzvah cake might be objectionable to the baker, but he or she should do it anyway, as opposed to creating a gay wedding cake? |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Jun 27 05:24:21 2019, in response to They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 27 04:56:02 2019. Anti-Semitism exists separate and apart from ordinary hatreds.I disagree. Anti-Semitism isn't that different from hatred of other groups of people. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 05:26:08 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by 3-9 on Thu Jun 27 05:18:10 2019. Legally I would say yes. Businesses are allowed to make stupid business decisions as I don't know many people who think putting flames on a vehicle is that onerous. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:44:16 2019, in response to Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 05:17:15 2019. It's been said that a guilty conscience needs no accuser. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 27 05:47:00 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by Mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 05:17:44 2019. Same with the baker. How customized is the cake, really?One can easily contend that a mechanic confronted with a really tricky problem that he sees at most once a year has to be more creative than a baker who makes 500 "customized" cakes a year. As I said, slippery slope. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:47:22 2019, in response to Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 05:16:38 2019. Case in point. Jews do not toss gays from the roof of buildings yet you single out Jews. The prosecution rests. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 27 06:11:31 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:01:44 2019. What the fuck is a transgender cake? |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jun 27 06:18:40 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:39:17 2019. Huh?Who would refuse a job over something silly like that. However,I personally refused to take a trip due to 'unsanitary conditions' on a D4500,that could Not be rectified immediately. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 06:20:14 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 27 06:11:31 2019. A cake celebrating gender affirming surgery. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 06:23:33 2019, in response to Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 05:47:22 2019. I don't "single out" Jews at all, liar. I have repeatedly called out ISIS and other Islamic extremists, radical "Christian" rightists that advocate the execution of gays, and even the three GOP presidential candidates who appeared at an Evangelical preacher's "Kill The Gays" rally in 2016.So STFU. |
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Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews) |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 06:35:55 2019, in response to Re: They're No Better (Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews), posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 06:23:33 2019. DO NOT TELL ME TO SHUT THE FUCK UP UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO BACK IT UP.You are not that tough, toothless. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 06:37:14 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 06:20:14 2019. LOL. You really are a clown |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 27 06:41:05 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 06:20:14 2019. Nature already affirmed your gender when you were in the womb. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 27 06:42:00 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 06:37:14 2019. You know what? If we would be having these conversations in the 1970s or 1980s, I would really think that it would be just talkin nonsense. I can't believe the world is actually heading in this direction. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 06:42:02 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jun 27 04:24:54 2019. Why are you singling out Jews again? Seems to me you have some anti-Semitic bias, toothless. |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Thu Jun 27 06:44:45 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Jun 27 06:42:00 2019. Personally, I would not celebrate the mental illness that would lead a man to want to have his genitalia surgically removed. 🍾🎂🍭🍩 |
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Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 27 06:47:59 2019, in response to Re: Report: 20% Of Americans Say It's OK For Businesses To Refuse Jews, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jun 27 03:00:55 2019. Yes. If I owned a bakery I would not sell a “Heil Hitler” cake to a neo-nazi, but I would sell him a “Happy Birthday” cake, even if he bought it on April 20.**I wouldn’t personalize it to say “Happy Birthday Adolf,” but I would personalize it to say “Happy Birthday Jim.” |
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