The Presidency should be abolished

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The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017 The problem that a single executive has in an ostensibly democratic state is that it creates a "leader" whom people can look up to, and free people don't need leaders. The other problem is that it's one person who is only accountable to large groups (IOW Congress) and even then not directly. Congress can't simply appoint of dismiss the president, he can only be removed from office due to criminal activity. Making it easier to remove the president is not a solution, as it makes the legislative branch dominant over the executive branch, destroying the separation of powers. I therefore wonder whether we would not be better served by replacing the executive branch with a supreme executive council, headed by a ceremonial president. The members of the Supreme Executive Council would be elected by an Electoral College constituted largely as present, but meeting in a single location. Electors would be permitted to split the ticket. The Council would consist of the modern cabinet. Ambassadors would be appointed by the Secretary of State. I haven't thought of how federal judges would be appointed, as having the Attorney General do it would be a conflict of interest, so probably just direct election by Congress.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 17 12:23:57 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* LOL, thanks for your endorsement of oligarchy. What you just described is a Politburo.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 17 12:24:22 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* LOL, thanks for your endorsement of oligarchy. What you just described is a Politburo. And thanks to executive agencies (not in the Constitution BTW), we do have that.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 12:35:12 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 17 12:24:22 2017.* If what I described is oligarchy, then, as the proposal does not call for increasing the power of the executive branch, what we currently have is monarchy. And we all know you love monarchy and consider it the ultimate form of government. "The President. . .may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices. . ." U.S. Const. Art. II, § 2. Next time, don't comment on the U.S. Constitution or anything else you know nothing about.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by R30A* on Wed May 17 12:40:26 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* Why keep the electoral college? Directly elect each cabinet secretary!
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 17 12:48:27 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* Your proposal would spread the infighting we know see in a bitterly divided congress extend to the executive branch as well. And the current system is not monarchy, because monarchs serve until someone cuts their heads off. Your supreme executive council is ill equipped for wartime, unless you propose to have an independent military, which is only useful for coups d'etat. Nothing personal to you, Pigs, but trying to solve current problems by changing fundamental institutions hasn't worked very well. The Soviet system was supposed to be government committee, all the committees reporting to a higher committee, until you reached the Supreme Soviet. They tried to design the perfect horse and instead came up with a camel, as usual.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 17 12:52:42 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by SLRT on Wed May 17 12:48:27 2017.* Nope; the USSR tried redesigning the horse and came up with a zebra. But they wanted something that could not be tamed and kicked at random. (A healthy zebra's kick can kill a crocodile.)
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 13:01:56 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by R30A on Wed May 17 12:40:26 2017.* In this case there's a justification for not doing that. No popular passions. The electoral college as it is presently constituted is worse than useless. There are arguments that it was intended to save America from a dangerous demagogue, but instead it alone resulted in the election of one.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 13:09:30 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by SLRT on Wed May 17 12:48:27 2017.* I didn't claim it was a monarchy, Olog-hai implicitly did. The Secretary of Defense would provide adequate oversight of the military and would be the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. The advantage of this is that you will likely no longer have civilians calling someone "Our Commander-in-Chief." The committees weren't the problem with the Soviet system. The obvious problem was that they only had one party. the government, as such, was just ceremonial for the will of the party. I'm not sure that it's a current problem though. Obviously, placing all that power in one person who is so fundamentally unqualified is problematic, but people of both parties have expressed concerns with a powerful presidency for decades.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed May 17 13:42:57 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* You never had this problem during the last creep.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Wed May 17 13:44:10 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* Contributing to your argument could be that with the advances of communication since the time of the Presidency's institution, it is no longer necessary to rely on one person to be able to unilaterally "pull the trigger" for stuff. Regarding judges, is there any viable way to extend their selection to the people (rather than other elected officials), even in a small way? I don't like the idea of just having the people themselves decide by majority or minority whether the judge should get in, but I wonder if the people can still be involved in the process somehow.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed May 17 13:59:56 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 17 13:44:10 2017.* Judges at the state or local levels are elected, just not federal, and there are strong reasons for that. Out West in Arizona, they have judicial recall, which is the worst thing they can ever do in practice. Lastly, as for supreme court nominations, these used to not take long at all. This only started when the Democrats decided that their party and bank accounts mattered more than the country. Same with the federal judges and cabinet they are holding up. If we were to extend this complain, you may as well say the cabinet should be decommissioned. Trump has had to last the longest of any President without his cabinet approved, and yet he's doing so much more than 2 years of Obama.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed May 17 14:00:28 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:35:12 2017.* Where were you for eight years?
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed May 17 14:00:59 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 13:01:56 2017.* You're one of the fruits that think Hillary did win? wow.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed May 17 14:02:29 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 13:09:30 2017.* "civilians calling someone "Our Commander-in-Chief."" Huh? "people of both parties have expressed concerns with a powerful presidency for decades. " Why are you calling teams parties? Parties imply they have different ideas.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 14:10:55 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 17 13:44:10 2017.* With judges we have the example of judicial election in the states, and I don't think it's a good idea.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 17 15:42:50 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 13:09:30 2017.* The obvious problem was that they only had one party If you have a perfect government, you don't need parties.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 17 15:49:15 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 14:10:55 2017.* I don't either. If a lot of people don't really know who they're voting for for other offices, it's even more true of judges.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Mitch45* on Wed May 17 16:00:42 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* Good luck with that. The United States has done pretty well under the current system. Using the time scale of established nations, the United States, at age 240, is a pipsqueak, yet the US has accomplished amazing things.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 17 16:04:59 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 17 16:00:42 2017.* Using the time scale of established nations, the United States, at age 240, is a pipsqueak Not in terms of a continuous government, at least in modern times.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 16:07:56 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 17 16:00:42 2017.* Appeal to tradition is a fallacy.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by SLRT* on Wed May 17 16:09:25 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 16:07:56 2017.* There's a difference between tradition and experience.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 17 18:27:30 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 17 16:00:42 2017.* Won't stop the left from trying to tear it down and replace it with the failed USSR system.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 18:52:45 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 17 18:27:30 2017.* It's the Swiss system, you dumbass. Pioneered by the Communist state, Pennsylvania.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by The Silence* on Wed May 17 19:06:33 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 18:52:45 2017.* Yes, Switzerland. Where everyone has guns and the banks are unregulated... You sure this is the nation you want to emulate?
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed May 17 19:14:53 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by The Silence on Wed May 17 19:06:33 2017.* Do you ever read my posts?
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed May 17 20:22:35 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by The Silence on Wed May 17 19:06:33 2017.* Switzerland is not that free.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Thu May 18 20:48:41 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by orange blossom special on Wed May 17 14:00:59 2017.* There is no question about the fact that Hillary won the popular vote. But since the popular vote doesn't decide the presidency, she didn't become President. Now, it can be argued that, if the popular vote were what decided things, the campaigns would have been run differently, and under those circumstances Trump would have won the popular vote. He might have, he might not have, there is no way we can ever know. We do know that Trump's claim that Hillary's lead of some 3 million popular votes was all due to fraud is utter BS.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Fri May 19 10:07:36 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by orange blossom special on Wed May 17 14:02:29 2017.* "civilians calling someone "Our Commander-in-Chief." Huh? Yes, that is something that irks me too. The President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces, not of the country at large. Free people are not subject to a Commander. Common usage should recognize this distinction, but often doesn't.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Tue May 30 18:38:07 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by The Silence on Wed May 17 19:06:33 2017.* BUMP
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Oct 14 13:51:04 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:35:12 2017.* BUMP
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Oct 14 14:16:39 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Oct 14 13:51:04 2017.* Get lost, stalker. And you lied about me preferring monarchy, besides. You lie all the time.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Oct 14 15:13:12 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 14 14:16:39 2017.* I see you're evading as usual.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by bingbong* on Sat Oct 14 20:08:38 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 14 14:16:39 2017.* LOL! You do.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Sat Oct 14 22:26:26 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* Posts like this would have never existed eight years ago. Only when the guy you don't like gets into office to post like this come up.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Oct 14 22:36:04 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Oct 14 22:26:26 2017.* Nobody said it ought to be abolished over eight years ago, but stuff like this was uttered.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Sat Oct 14 23:06:01 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 14 22:36:04 2017.* Exactly what I mean!
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sun Oct 15 01:00:03 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 14 22:36:04 2017.* Because democracy literally worked that time and literally didn't work in 2016.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by jimmymc25* on Sun Oct 15 01:23:37 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Oct 15 01:00:03 2017.* +1000
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Sun Oct 15 01:36:09 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Oct 15 01:00:03 2017.* The U.S. is a Republic
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Oct 15 01:47:18 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 15 01:36:09 2017.* Correct. Guess who wanted democracy . . . "(T)he first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle of democracy." — Communist Manifesto, chapter 2 "What will be the course of this revolution? Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution, and through this, the direct or indirect dominance of the proletariat. . . . Perhaps this will cost a second struggle, but the outcome can only be the victory of the proletariat. Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat." — The Principles of Communism Democracy ultimately does not require a constitution whose laws are set in stone (unlike a republic); they can be changed at a whim.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Sun Oct 15 02:20:29 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 15 01:47:18 2017.* True. A true democracy in the United States would mean all the idiots are in charge.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sun Oct 15 02:44:46 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 15 02:20:29 2017.* How is that different than now?
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Sun Oct 15 02:58:07 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Oct 15 02:44:46 2017.* Because right now, the most qualified people are in charge
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by Mtk52983* on Sun Oct 15 08:03:53 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 15 02:58:07 2017.* The current leadership is a lot of things, but qualified is not an adjective that springs to mind. This applies to the majority and minority leadership in Congress as well. Usually elected politicians are hacks who could not earn a decent wage in private sector.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by ClearAspect* on Sun Oct 15 08:04:25 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 15 02:58:07 2017.* No, it would lead to confusing messages, a single president creates a coherant message, even a Trump. A panel would have its problems, have divisions and its message would be muddled, even more so having a president be a mere ceremonial one. Just because we have Trump doesnt mean Im against the system, no governmenf system is perfect, the best way to attack these problems is to have getrymandering banned and lines redrawn properly. Not to ensure republican dominance and to open voting rights laws so more people can vote.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by ClearAspect* on Sun Oct 15 08:04:55 2017, in response to The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 12:22:21 2017.* No, it would lead to confusing messages, a single president creates a coherant message, even a Trump. A panel would have its problems, have divisions and its message would be muddled, even more so having a president be a mere ceremonial one. Just because we have Trump doesnt mean Im against the system, no government system is perfect, the best way to attack these problems is to have getrymandering banned and lines redrawn properly.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished?
Posted by ClearAspect* on Sun Oct 15 08:05:25 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished?, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 15 02:58:07 2017.* You sure because the President doesnt know what the 25th amendment is...
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by Jeff Rosen* on Sun Oct 15 08:22:31 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 13:01:56 2017.* Many people would say it DID save America from a dangerous demagogue.
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Re: The Presidency should be abolished
Posted by R2ChinaTown* on Sun Oct 15 08:35:55 2017, in response to Re: The Presidency should be abolished, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 17 13:01:56 2017.* You can make that "baby with the bathwater" argument and of course you'd be wrong. Candidate Donald J. Trump understood how the system worked and he worked that system. He went to states up to election eve that his opponent took for granted. At the same time candidate Hillary Rotten Clinton took the same system for granted and in the final analys, didn't work it. You can claim that the system failed or you can correctly view it as the "system worked as designed" despite a fluke in the popular vote.
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