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The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016 City officials have intentionally ground Midtown to a halt |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 18:36:26 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. If so, GOOD. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 3 18:49:36 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. There may be something to what they say, but the argument is weak. A lot of narrowing has happened at the fringes of midtown (like 23rd St, and 1st Ave), but less at the core. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 3 18:53:39 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. I've said this in the past. Centralizing urban planners playing games with the economy and people's lives. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 3 19:13:25 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 18:36:26 2016. Only works if they have some plan for emergency vehicles to get around the mess. Otherwise, bad idea.They should just try again with congestion pricing to reduce the traffic / danger, and not play games with the physical design of the streets. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 19:39:03 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 3 19:13:25 2016. Lacking congestion pricing, they may have decided to make your life so miserable, you wont try driving in again.I agree, it's a risky strategy, although emergency vehicles should be able to run down bus lanes. If congestion pricing were to come up again, the NY post would raise holy hell to prevent it. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Dec 3 20:13:57 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. This is obvious to those of us that drive around here on a daily basis. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Dec 4 03:10:07 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. This is obvious to those of us that drive around here on a daily basis. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 07:06:58 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Dec 4 03:10:07 2016. This is obvious to those of us that drive around here on a daily basis.This is a small minority. The vast majority use public transit, especially for those going into the CBD. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 07:56:49 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. From the linked article: Still, Manhattan has become a vehicular hell where drivers suffer an average speed of 8.2 mph.What should the average speed be? 1. For computational ease, let's assume an unimpeded driving speed of 20 mph or 3 min/mile. 2. There are traffic lights every block and 20 blocks to the mile. The cycle time is 90 seconds and for computational ease let's assume it's green for 45 seconds. This means the average waiting time per traffic signal is 10.25 seconds. (Average wait time 22.5 seconds, when light is red and it's read half the time.) 3. (1 and 2) Expected traveling time is 3 minutes or 180 seconds. Expected time to wait for a traffic light during a 1 mile trips is 20 x 10.25 seconds or 225 seconds. Total elapsed time is 405 seconds. 4. Average speed is 1/(405/3600) mph = 8.9 mph. 5. So 8.2 mph means that travel speed is 92% of expected speed. 6. Shut up and stop complaining. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 08:46:35 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 07:56:49 2016. I agree. . .one cannot build a city of skyscrapers and then still somehow expect traffic speeds to resemble those where the skyscrapers are not. If each block will be packed with stuff, it will also be packed with traffic.And I am for tolls at all Manhattan crossings as a modified form of congestion pricing. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 08:50:31 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 08:46:35 2016. Correction: Manhattan crossings related to the CBD I meant (so not the University Heights Bridge, etc.) |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 09:17:57 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 08:46:35 2016. And I am for tolls at all Manhattan crossings as a modified form of congestion pricing.I'll part company with you regarding congestion pricing. If a public resource has to be rationed, ability to pay should not be the basis for such rationing. From a less abstract principle, London's experience has been that congestion pricing has not reduced congestion over the long run. London's congestion is now worse than it was before charging began. However, then number of vehicles within the charging area remains 20% below the pre-charging levels. My conclusion is that it wasn't the number of vehicles that was causing the congestion. Moreover, Manhattan's CBD vehicle traffic is down from its historic highs in the 1980's. This was before Bloomberg and DeBlasio, The Post's alleged congestion creators. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 4 10:09:46 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 07:56:49 2016. Are the traffic lights synchronized for any continuous travel ? |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 10:17:58 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 09:17:57 2016. If a public resource has to be rationed, ability to pay should not be the basis for such rationing.Fair enough - do you have suggestions for other means of rationing? |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 11:01:09 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 4 10:09:46 2016. Are the traffic lights synchronized for any continuous travel ?They are but with significant traffic they perform worse than randomly set signals. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Dec 4 11:02:06 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 07:56:49 2016. As a driver i've bf vision zero and after vision zero traffic has slowed significantly. Suprisingly it isn't lowerin the speed limit that alowing everything down its everything else.(I'll use Bklyn as an example since i drive there most but this is going on everywhere) •Dekalb and Layfayette Av used to be the fastest way to get to from Downtown BK to Bed Stuy/Bushwick/Ridgewood. They were both two lane one way streets. They installed a bike lane and made them one lane for a significant distances. Now instead of the traffic flowing like it used to both streets are parking lots. The kicker is both street have sections,where they retain 2 lanes and the bike lane and no the street don't get any wider so it is possible to have both but DOT decided to voluntary create traffic where their wasn't any. This is happening all over the city not to residential streets but main thoroughfare's. • Atlantic Ave main thoroughfare travelling Downtown BK to Jamaica Queens. Esp since BK lacks highways. I can speak for Brooklyn they've been taking away left turns from Atlantic for significant distances. Making ppl have to travel longer distances to be able to turn on the streer they need. Making traffic slower keeping cars on already clogged Atlantic longer and putting more cars on residential streets fue to drivers having to back track to their destination. Or even worse have drivers forgo Atlantic all together and travel crosstown on residential streets (with more children) more than likely speeding. Vision Zero isn't the solution. The answer is much more simple and a single pronged approach. Put speed and red light camera's literally everywhere. Once rhe speeds have tickets flooding their mailboxes they slow down or lose their license if they can't pay problem solved. The cameras will pay for itself from the revenue from the tickets |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 11:15:49 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 4 10:17:58 2016.  Kidding aside, the first question to ask is how much congestion would be reduced for what level of travel reduction. N.B. what I said regarding London's experience. If congestion won't be reduced, there's no point in rationing. If rationing is considered, those who by what ever criterion are denied CBD motor access must have a viable alternative in place before rationing is implemented. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 11:21:43 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 11:01:09 2016. I have plenty of observational evidence to contradict that statement. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 11:36:47 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 11:21:43 2016. What was the traffic level during these observations. Be specific - how did you measure it? |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:05:50 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Dec 4 11:02:06 2016. I did not mention Vision Zero. I was pointing out that there needs to be a rigorous definition for congestion and a baseline number.I am familiar with DeKalb Ave between Garvey Blv (Sumner Ave) and Vanderbilt. I don't know whether this is the section to which you were referring. My experience is mostly on a bicycle. I suggest you try this method because it will give you a different perspective. Cars have no difficulty going around obstacles (and into the bike lane). Most of these obstacles are double parked cars and trucks. If travel speed were the sole criterion, there would be no parking for 50 ft (3 car lengths) before each traffic light. However, drivers want to be able to park or double park for free, stop within 2 feet of their destination and don't see how this affects those behind them. I use Willoughby for the return trip, so I'm not familiar with Lafayette. Most pedestrian crash injuries and fatalities occur along a few arterial corridors. Atlantic Ave is one such corridor. Until such time as vehicle designs are changed to permit pedestrians to survive a crash, slowing down vehicle speed by any means possible is the only available option. If vehicles are driven safely, the following driver will allow 3 seconds between himself and the vehicle directly in front. This means that there will be 1200 vehicles per lane-hour passing any fixed point regardless of vehicle speed. Slower travel speeds do not reduce roadway capacity. Those championing faster driving speeds are also championing unsafe driving practices. Put speed and red light camera's literally everywhere. Drivers consider themselves a privileged class. They have passed laws that limit the number and placement of devices that would record traffic infractions. Once [the speeders] have tickets flooding their mailboxes they slow down or lose their license if they can't pay problem solved. The cameras will pay for itself from the revenue from the tickets In their view, traffic enforcement is all about revenue and not a bit about safety. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 12:05:55 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 11:36:47 2016. One major example is weekday 6th Ave traffic between 7:30 AM and 8:30 AM, for which I have hundreds of observations. I can't tell you vehicles per minute, but it's typically moderately heavy. Often it is flowing smoothly, but any single incident can disrupt that smooth flow.Any diversion of the traffic lights by 10 seconds or more from a steady progression northward causes severe backups. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 12:10:33 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:05:50 2016. If vehicles are driven safely, the following driver will allow 3 seconds between himself and the vehicle directly in front.Hmm. The one carlength per 10 mph rule that I was taught is more like 1.5 seconds. But in any case, if you allow x seconds between yourself and the vehicle in front of you, there will be one car passing every (x seconds plus the time it takes a vehicle to travel its own length). The time for a vehicle to travel its own length increases at lower speeds. I realize this is a fairly minor effect unless you get down to 10 mph or so, but it is some effect. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:11:09 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 12:05:55 2016. I can't tell you vehicles per minute, but it's typically moderately heavy.If you cannot tell me the number of vehicles per minute, how do you know what is moderately heavy. Let me give you an easier way to measure traffic. Count the number of cars in the block waiting during the red cycle. If that's too difficult, measure the percentage of the block that's occupied waiting during the red cycle. You can make a mental note of their position and then use google maps to measure the distance. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:48:23 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 12:10:33 2016. The one carlength per 10 mph rule that I was taught is more like 1.5 seconds.I was taught the same rule. It's been replaced. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sun Dec 4 13:23:53 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:05:50 2016. "I am familiar with DeKalb Ave between Garvey Blv (Sumner Ave) and Vanderbilt. I don't know whether this is the section to which you were referring"That's the exact area i'm talking about. The problem with the double parking is specifically when they double park in the bike lanes. For biker's it is extremely dangerous esp trucks bc you can't see around them. But that's where enforcement comes in again agressive traffic enforcement discourages such activity. The way they doing it now (reducing capacity, generally making it harder to drive) only attempts to solve one problem by creating another. But they are doing it everywhere and wonder why traffic is worse???? With Atlantic they need to consider giving it the Queens Blvd treatment. Barriers to prevent jaywalking. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 14:11:29 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 12:11:09 2016. OK. Typical for morning rush on 6th Ave is maybe 4 lanes times 3 vehicles.So 12 vehicles every 6 seconds for 54 out of every 90 seconds. 108 cars per 90 seconds, so 1.2 cars per second or 72 per minute, or 18 per lane per minute. How does that help? |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Dec 4 16:14:34 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 11:21:43 2016. You are correct. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 17:49:57 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 14:11:29 2016. How does that help?Not very much because you are measuring the wrong thing. The reduction in average speed in a city comes from time spent at red lights not the reduced speed when traveling. You must follow a single car to see how long it takes to traverse a mile or two. An alternative approach would be to see how long it takes for a block of waiting cars to clear, after the light turns green. Let's say you're at 6th Ave and 16th St. The block between 16th and 15th has to be clear of cars before the first cars crossing 15th St approach 16th. We're assuming the following cars are obeying the speed limit, so it would not be met with a red signal at 16th. If the block is not cleared, then the follower must wait for the "congestion" to clear before proceeding. N.B. the traffic signal at 15th turns green before the one at 16th. An equivalent approach would be to estimate how far back the queue waiting between 16th and 15th extends before the light at 15th turns green. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 18:00:38 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 17:49:57 2016. You keep posting that. The issue of a block not being cleared is way down on the list of obstacles to free flow of traffic. The following activities cause greater congestion, based on hundreds of observations of what I refer to as "moderately heavy" traffic:- Blockages of lanes other than the curb lane (double parked vehicles, lanes closed due to construction, and lanes very slow due to very bad pavement) - Vehicles making turns not from the curb lane - Vehicles traveling in a non-curb lane at well under 25 mph - Lights turning green too late (i.e., not roughly 6 seconds after the prior light turned green) - Lanes blocked by cross traffic blocking the box - Lanes blocked by pedestrians crossing against the light After all of these causes of delay comes the one you have identified, namely cars unable to proceed because they have caught up with the car waiting for the red light ahead of them. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 4 20:35:09 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 18:00:38 2016. The purpose is to quantify traffic congestion and establish a baseline against which congestion effects can be compared. Comparative terms like heavy congestion, moderate traffic, etc. are meaningless because everyone has a different basis for comparison. I conclude in this instance you would rather keep repeating your anecdotal observations rather than using them to establish a quantitative model.I gather you were too young to have experienced Hans Mueller. The final paragraph expresses Mueller's philosophy: in physics something does not exist unless it can be measured and quantified. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Dec 4 21:58:50 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 4 18:00:38 2016. You guys are funny. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Dec 5 06:13:25 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 3 18:36:26 2016. I'm assuming you don't drive. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 5 10:47:04 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Dec 5 06:13:25 2016. He obviously doesn't, as he wouldn't be making some of the comments he is making. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Dec 5 13:16:49 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 5 10:47:04 2016. Not necessarily. The article is a simplistic and possibly/probably slanted description of what very well may be valid transportation planning strategies. If so, then they can be "good", even if they may result in slightly greater delay for drivers. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Mon Dec 5 13:41:02 2016, in response to The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by Dave on Sat Dec 3 18:11:30 2016. Sounds like a felony. Didn't someone just go to jail for slowing down a bridge? |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 5 14:10:18 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Dec 5 13:16:49 2016. Well maybe. I do understand you know a lot more on that topic than I obviously. |
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Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Mon Dec 5 21:16:55 2016, in response to Re: The real reason for New York City's traffic nightmare, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 5 14:10:18 2016. Thanks. |
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