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| Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control (1331854) | |
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Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 11:26:34 2015 There are now more guns than living human beings in the United StatesI challenge anyone on this board to explain to me why this is necessary, or even acceptable in a civilized society. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 11:36:52 2015, in response to Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 11:26:34 2015. How do you propose to lower the number of guns to a point where they will not be available to murderers who are determined to get them? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 11:53:26 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 11:36:52 2015. 1) mandate all guns in the home remain locked in an appropriate safe when not in use. Enforce. Break ins are a commonly seen path to an illegal gun. Make it so no gun can be readily recovered and we'll see even fewer than we do now. Ban possession without paperwork as to the guns origin, owners' background check passing. Exclude any gun over 100 years old, as well as those made permanently dysfunctional.2) buyback as many as possible. Melt them down. 3) increase taxes on gun purchases so as to drive the cost unaffordably high. This can be done with a combination of sales, tariffs and surcharges. Funds can go to supporting victims, for one example covering medical care copays along with enforcement costs. 4) severely regulate ammunition sales. 5) mandatory background searches for all sales, and tis time let's make them thorough. Mandatory waiting periods. 6) ban internet sales 7) mandate gun safety training for anyone seeking to buy a first gun. Perform full background check during training. 8) public record of gun owners, how many and when purchased. The second amendment conveys no right to privacy re: gun owners. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Dec 7 12:12:04 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 11:36:52 2015. Around 70% of illegal guns end up in the hands of criminals through straw purchases and "thefts" from corrupt gun dealers. I say around because of course the gun lobby has pushed for riders and amendments that prohibit Feds from releasing accurate data on illegal firearms and their use in household defense. But that's just because the numbers are so great, right?Both routes are already illegal and both routes can be readily closed off by lifting the ridiculous restrictions placed on the ATF and local police forces to protect the "privacy" of criminal gun dealers. But again those restrictions come from riders and amendments sponsored by the NRA and other gun industry lobbyists, for whom the quick turnover of illegal firearms represents a significant part of their bottom line. No new laws are required, we just need to remove the cuffs placed on law enforcement by the NRA as they hide behind "freedom" to advocate for criminals, psychopaths and the profit margins of their corporate contributors. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 12:19:30 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 11:36:52 2015. See Canada.It would take time, of course, and wouldn't have as quick results as many people might expect. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:26:43 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 11:53:26 2015. Even if all those things were possible, what would you do about all the existing guns? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 12:28:01 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 11:53:26 2015. Excellent post! |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:28:28 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by WillD on Mon Dec 7 12:12:04 2015. And what in your proposal do you believe will reduce the stockpile of about 270 million weapons in private hands, the danger cited in the OP? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:29:38 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 12:19:30 2015. Maybe if we're invaded by Canada, they can figure out how to confiscate 270 million or so currently legal firearms? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:35:15 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 12:28:01 2015. Bingbong has some suggestions that might be good things, but I still ask: "Even if all those things were possible, what would you do about all the existing guns?" |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Dec 7 12:39:37 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:28:28 2015. Aren't you guys always telling us how safe the arsenals of law abiding private firearms owners are? If that's the case then why do you want to eliminate them? Shouldn't the focus be on keeping those firearms with the law abiding citizens and keeping them away from criminals? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 7 12:47:25 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 11:36:52 2015. Doesn't even happen in countries with strict gun control. The criminals always get them. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:47:57 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:26:43 2015. I would expect many to be bought back and melted. That proves successful just about anywhere it's done. Yes, there's likely to be some resistance from outliers, but being on a publicly accessible ownership list that includes how many guns one owns may help to dampen their enthusiasm. Nobody wants to publicly look like a nutcase. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 12:51:02 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:47:57 2015. Thanks for demonstrating that gun confiscation is the true goal of gun control supporters. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:52:30 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:47:57 2015. "[...] being on a publicly accessible ownership list that includes how many guns one owns may help to dampen their enthusiasm. Nobody wants to publicly look like a nutcase"Yes, I'm certain potential terrorists and career criminals worry about registering their guns and looking like nutcases. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:53:46 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 12:51:02 2015. When the number of guns exceeds the number of people, there's no need for more, and cull back some makes perfect and relevant sense. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 12:55:57 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:53:46 2015. That is false. Why shouldn’t people be allowed to have more than one gun? Did you realize that some guns have collectible value even if never fired? And that even among practical guns, different guns have different functions? One size does not fit all. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:56:57 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:52:30 2015. The gun would be registered at purchase, which would and should be limited to legal registered and regulated dealers. These same dealers will handle paperwork for transferring ownership (such as an inheritance) and completing private sales. Every transaction has a record which follows with the weapon. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:58:53 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 12:55:57 2015. Where did I say that? I did say that multiple gun ownership is to be noted in the public record.A buyback campaign is not confiscation. Its cash in ones pocket, and a chance for everyone to sleep safer that night. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:00:24 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 12:51:02 2015. We had a very successful gun control program in NYC that dramatically reduced the number of firearms being carried and helped reduce the murder rate in the city from over 2,000 year to 332 by the time Giuliani and Bloomberg left office.It involved confiscation from people committing petty crime. I don't think a single legally carried weapon was confiscated. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:03:39 2015, in response to Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 11:26:34 2015. Explain to me how you will guarantee that all criminals and all terrorists will surrender all of their weapons if I were to get rid of mine? Of course that assumes that guns serve no purpose other than security. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:04:42 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:56:57 2015. Look at the title of the post and the OP. His source says more guns than people; I believe it is about 270 million weapons. How do we reduce that number so that it becomes virtually impossible for terrorists and career criminals to carry out their crimes? Notwithstanding that terrorists are creating a notable atmosphere of terror in Israel with knives. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:07:00 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:00:24 2015. The fact that the left is opposed to stop and frisk, using "profiling" as a justification, shows that they are not serious about gun control but want to disarm the general citizenry only. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:10:26 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:58:53 2015. Hobbyists and hunters who have multiple guns will not so easily sell their firearms. Do you have any idea how expensive the hobby can be?I mean, notwithstanding the guns, do you know that hunters with tracking dogs buy Garmin GPS units that track their dogs. The dawgs each wear a special collar with an antenna. Entry price: $800 for the base unit and ONE dog. Each additional dog: $300. And accessories, and feed, and ... and ... Maybe George Soros has enough money to buy them all out. LOL!! |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:12:26 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:07:00 2015. It is why they are going after the instrumentality instead of the user of the instrumentality. It's tilting at windmills. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:13:18 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 12:35:15 2015. Buybacks work, subject to my prior caveat. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Dec 7 13:14:49 2015, in response to Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 11:26:34 2015. Good |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:15:28 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:12:26 2015. Yet somehow going after the insturmentality works in Canada, without any restrictions on gun ownership that the Supreme Court has overturned in the US. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:20:20 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:13:18 2015. Buybacks work when you can sell a $50 saturday night special back to the police for several hundred dollars and a pair of air Jordans. A guy who buys a clean .45 Automatic on the street for $1000 isn't about to give it up for the same flat rate. BTW; Buy backs usually come with the caveat that the gun has a serial number and has not been fired in a criminal act (IIRC) |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:21:11 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:13:18 2015. Buybacks have mainly been used against illegal firearms. That's a start, but they offer one price for any weapon. People were turning in junk, and guns they wanted to get rid of. Are you sure the money wasn't used for newer, better guns from the people who shouldn't have them?JayZee's core contention is that the problem is THERE ARE TOO MANY GUNS. Let's stipulate that's true. What will reduce the numbers SO LOW that terrorists and career criminals won't get them. Look at the Paris theater attackers in a country with strong gun control. They were able to obtain what (the theater attackers, specifically) four weapons? Plus non-gun explosives. Look at the carnage. Why? They had the motive and didn't worry about dying themselves. Obtaining the weapons was almost secondary. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 13:21:39 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by bingbong on Mon Dec 7 12:58:53 2015. You said that when the number of guns exceeds the number of people, that’s a problem. That’s what I was responding to. Not the issue that each gun should be registered.A buyback campaign is confiscation. Most buyback campaigns do not pay the gun’s full market value, and if they did, this would be an extremely expensive campaign. Finally, it is still confiscation to the extent that people might not want to sell their guns to the government, even if they were adequately compensated. Especially since they wouldn’t be able to use the money to buy an adequate substitute. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:23:09 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:21:11 2015. You're ignoring my prior caveat. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:23:30 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:15:28 2015. Among other things, Canada is not an attractive venue for mass murderers and terrorists. The U.S. is. France now is. Russia is.Remember that London police didn't used to carry firearms, and now they do? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 13:23:56 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:07:00 2015. Who is "the left?” I am opposed to both stop and frisk and gun control. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:25:23 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 13:21:39 2015. Buyback implies voluntary. I don't know if bingbong intends voluntary. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 7 13:27:39 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:25:23 2015. The term "buyback" implies that the government sold the weapons to the criminals in the first place. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 7 13:28:18 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:20:20 2015. They bought the SNS guns from the police in the first place? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:28:35 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 13:23:56 2015. The people who speak the loudest about the necessity of gun control. These are mostly on the left. Do you disagree? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 7 13:28:54 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon Dec 7 13:07:00 2015. They also lie about it being "racial" profiling when it is profiling of criminals no matter the race. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 7 13:29:40 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:28:35 2015. Also no coincidence that left-wing constitutions of left-wing countries have no right to keep and bear arms among their state-granted rights. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:30:00 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:23:09 2015. What was your "prior caveat." |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:32:20 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:30:00 2015. It will take some time. Also, results won't be as good as some people might expect. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:34:40 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:23:30 2015. Canada is not an attractive venue for mass murderers and terrorists.Are we discussing measures just to reducing those events? To me, the much greater reason to retrict guns is to reduce urban violence. Canda has the same non-gun homicide rate as the US (indicating there are plenty of nasty people there) but only 1/7th the gun-based homicide rate. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Dec 7 13:35:23 2015, in response to Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 7 11:26:34 2015. There are now more guns than living human beings in the United StatesIIRC, you or someone else pointed out this exact statistic in the past and also asked the same exact question after. And IIRC, we already gave you answers. Why do we have to rehash this when we already discussed this? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:37:06 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:32:20 2015. That kind of dilutes the proposition that they work. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:38:26 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 7 13:23:56 2015. You are most definitely not opposed to gun control, based on your posts here. You just don't support as many measures to control guns as bingbong does, but you support more measures than SMAZ.No one here except SMAZ has expressed true opposition to gun control. He supports allowing individual Americans to own machine guns. I don't know his stand on hand-held rocket launchers, but he probably supports those too. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:39:28 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:37:06 2015. Even Canada has gun murders. Are Canada's rules inherently useless because they haven't reduced gun murders to zero? |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:44:27 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Dec 7 13:35:23 2015. Conceptually, JayZee is arguing that if people understand the number of guns in the U.S. we will have an epiphany and do something about it. He still believes it so he still asks it.And I've been asking: What? And why do you believe (assuming the suggestions are possible) it will reduce the numbers of guns to the point where terrorists and criminals won't get their hands on a few? Or as many as they want, for that matter. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:45:15 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:34:40 2015. To me, the much greater reason to retrict guns is to reduce urban violence.Stop and frisk did that. |
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Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Dec 7 13:48:32 2015, in response to Re: Gun Proliferation In The US Is Out Of Control, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 7 13:39:28 2015. This isn't Canada. Here we try (even Obama has talked about) keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. We seem to be going backwards on that. |
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