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| Our Chickenhawk Country (1269059) | |
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Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 15:57:50 2015 A fascinating article in The Atlantic which makes the point that our treatment of active duty soldiers as distant, infallible heroes despite severe systemic failings and runaway costs benefits nobody.The Tragedy of the American Military In particular the vanishingly small number of Americans in the military removes the impact war has on the population and potentially leads to runaway costs and more frequent involvement in war. The DoD has a lot of work to do recovering from the Iraq and Afghanistan debacle and our attitude toward our soldiers makes that harder. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:04:52 2015, in response to Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 15:57:50 2015. So you're in favor of the Draft; i.e., a citizen's army.Or no army at all? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Mar 1 16:07:04 2015, in response to Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 15:57:50 2015. LOL The Atlantic. The libs there were cheering on the dismantling of the military, before. They had no problem with rules of engagement that tied the hands of soldiers and officers.So, what's the desirable foreign policy? Hawkish or dovish? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:22:29 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:04:52 2015. I think there's a case to be made for making the Selective Service something more than it currently is. IMO it'd be good to make the threat of a draft a more legitimate threat for people of all demographic groups as a deterrent to war. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:24:18 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:22:29 2015. And how would you deter our enemies? |
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| (1269083) | |
I guess most think the author is thinking of conservatives (Re: Our Chickenhawk Country) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:25:33 2015, in response to Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 15:57:50 2015. Then you should read the article. It talks about the fact that almost all the people who prescribe what our military should or shouldn't do have never served, never had their asses on the line, likely have no close relatives who serve or have served.Service members are a self-imposed minority that everyone thinks are there to do their bidding. Including most politicians. Including many if not most people here. Cluck, cluck, cluck. |
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| (1269085) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:26:43 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:22:29 2015. The draft is not real until it's real. It won't be "respected" if no one is called. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:26:55 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Mar 1 16:07:04 2015. How about you go read the article and comment on its points rather than my subject line? Or is it too much trouble to comment on the article itself rather than your preconceived notions of the source?If you'd bothered to read the article you would see that it takes no real position on foreign policy, and rather deals strictly with our military policy. But if you're too uncomfortable with being the #1 chickenhawk around here then I guess you could go on making strawman articles rather than reading the article. |
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| (1269089) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:29:14 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:26:55 2015. What interests me the most is that this is what happens when a self-admitted draft dodger gets some honest perspective on how we have come to view the military. |
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| (1269090) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:30:22 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:24:18 2015. It's about the article, not about what I would do, but how are we deterring our enemies now? How did our invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan deter any enemies?And how does our mindless veneration of our soldiers defend our country? In what way does our runaway defense budget make us more of a power than China, Russia, or even a European nation? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:35:58 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:30:22 2015. How did our invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan deter any enemies?The invasion deterred our enemies; our constant second-guessing leading to unilateral withdrawal encouraged them. Now ISIS has a lot of the land our troops were made to abandon. How many Americans will die or be crippled to retake what other Americans already spilled their blood to liberate in the first palce? And how does our mindless veneration of our soldiers defend our country? For one thing you should learn the difference between veneration and patronizing. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:36:50 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 16:30:22 2015. It certainly did deter further aggresion here . |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:46:20 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:35:58 2015. So you favor leaving 100s of 1000s of ground troops in Iraq forever? |
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Re: I guess most think the author is thinking of conservatives (Re: Our Chickenhawk Country) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:47:25 2015, in response to I guess most think the author is thinking of conservatives (Re: Our Chickenhawk Country), posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:25:33 2015. Wow, I actually agree with you. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:49:51 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:46:20 2015. How many do we have in Asia since Roosevelt's war of aggression against the Japanese?. I realize that was only 70 years ago. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:52:05 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:49:51 2015. Most are in Korea which wants them there. Iraq wanted us out. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:52:44 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:46:20 2015. I would favor whatever was necessary to meet our country's legitimate needs, assuming we had a Commander-in-Chief who knew his hay foot from his straw foot. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:53:34 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:52:44 2015. Not a nice thing to say about Bush. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:54:03 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:52:05 2015. So you feel our troops should be committed to whatever country wants them there. Iraq now says they want "us" there. OK by you? |
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| (1269118) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:54:43 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:53:34 2015. You think we have one now, huh? |
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| (1269120) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:59:44 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:54:03 2015. Every situation has to be looked at individually based on our strategic needs. Perhaps we do need additional ground forces in Iraq to rout out ISIS. I don't think we need them now, but we may if the air war doesn't do the trick. I keep my mind open.As fas as Korea goes, the reason they want us there is because of the continuous threat from the North -- my words "they want us there" was shorthand - they want us, and we agree they need us. Same analysis should be made anywhere. |
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| (1269126) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 17:09:49 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:52:05 2015. And the 47,000 military personell we have in Okinawa these days are welcome in Japan? |
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| (1269136) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 17:17:03 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 16:59:44 2015. The one particular place where I think we diverge is this.The first consideration is not whether "they" "need" us; it whether WE need to be there. Since the end of WWII we've felt we've had to pretend we're only helping our good buddies [fill in the country or group] achieve their aims. Wars are not fought to achieve other people's aims, unless meeting their aims meets ours. Secondly, if we have to overrun a country, we have to be ready to occupy it. If we're just going to hand it over to whoever, we should ask why. Like Bush the 1st handed Kuwait back to the Sheiks (who promptly deported the non-citizen Palestinians). Like Obama announced that we would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan on dates certain. And if we do occupy a country, we have to be ready to administer it, not hand that over to local puppets (or worse, non-puppets). The Army has Civil Administration Units for that. Widely used after WWII. Still had them during Nam; probably still now. The CO became the Mayor, the XO the head of the City Council, the army clerks became municipal clerks, and so on. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 17:31:48 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 17:17:03 2015. Bush, Paul Bremer, et al. tried to civilly administer Iraq - they botched the job mightily. We were there for 5 or 6 years before Obama took over. He could see we failed and that we were hemorrhaging blood and money there. He was right to pull out when he did. We can't run other countries for them forever. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 17:33:50 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 17:09:49 2015. I agree, they should be removed. We don't need them there. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 17:38:02 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 17:33:50 2015. Yet there the sit 70 years later. |
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| (1269165) | |
Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:47:30 2015, in response to Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 15:57:50 2015. Yeah, I read that article when it first came out.Very powerful. I didn't post it here because I didn't think anyone here would be interested in it or even understand it. Thanks for posting it. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:53:04 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:29:14 2015. Here is a similar article that I had decided not to post but, hey, since we're on topic.I sometimes feel like that guy too but to me there is no point in getting as agitated as he does. Well-meaning people are good at doing the Pilate thing and moving on. No point in giving it too much thought. What do you think? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:56:37 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:35:58 2015. How many Americans will die or be crippled to retake what other Americans already spilled their blood to liberate in the first palce?The answer is: None. "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" John Kerry |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:57:46 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 16:49:51 2015. Yeah, our servicemembers and their families in Korea and Japan are getting killed and maimed every day.What are we thinking? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:02:03 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 17:09:49 2015. Those fucking Japs ambushing and setting IEDs against our forces in Okinawa is indeed getting old. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 18:02:13 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:57:46 2015. That was not the issue, troll but feel free toake irrelevant comments any time |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Sun Mar 1 18:03:30 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:02:03 2015. Trolling is good for your mental health |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:03:42 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 16:26:43 2015. A draft should be called if we decide in favor of a ground war against Iran.It would be a pathetic military force but at least we'll have numbers. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 18:08:58 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 1 17:31:48 2015. No they didn't, assuming you read what I said.And we weren't losing when Obama cam to power. He did what he promised to do. Win by closing. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Mar 1 18:20:10 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:47:30 2015. Thanks. I'm amazed that the Mr. Fallows can make the very coherent point that we've accomplished virtually nothing in the past 13 years of almost continuous warfare, and that the disconnection between most of the population and the military could lead to unending war. Yet somehow some around here claim we've not only succeeded, but we must keep fighting. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:33:16 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 18:08:58 2015. LOL!! A year later  |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 1 18:36:52 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:33:16 2015. And now? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:39:14 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 1 18:36:52 2015. I couldn't find a map.i really tried on Google Images for a 2012, '13 or '14 map. I'll try Bing. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 21:14:43 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 17:53:04 2015. I have work tomorrow so I'm done for now, but I will finish that article and respond. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 21:27:19 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 18:03:42 2015. There was nothing pathetic about the draftees in the Army in WWII, Korea or Viet Nam. Lifers used to tell me that Nam saw the best educated, competent draftees they ever saw. The troops didn't lose the Viet Nam conflict, the leadership in DC did.Draftees in a future conflict will do fine if we can only break the culture that your country sometimes needs your service; it doesn't just give you stuff. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 22:05:18 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 1 21:27:19 2015. There was nothing pathetic about the draftees in the Army in WWII, Korea or Viet Nam.Not to disparage those great American warriors, but give today's much smaller professional force the same weaponry and logistical support of back-then (or viceversa...that is apples for apples) and they would COMPLETELY DESTROY the American militaries of WW2, Korean War and 'Nam in less than a month. Lifers used to tell me that Nam saw the best educated, competent draftees they ever saw. I agree. I've heard that too. It's because they WERE in fact the best up to that point. The 'Nam draftees would have slaughtered their WW2 counterparts. Now imagine those Vietnam Era guys against today's pros. You just made my case. Draftees in a future conflict will do fine if we can only break the culture that your country sometimes needs your service; I would like your optimism more if it were grounded in reality. 70% of American males are not physically fit for military service. A majority of the rest would seek and receive deferments or dodge it altogether. The fastest way to destroy a capable military force is to impose an unnecessary draft of the unwilling and the incapable. Imagine a modern civilian police dept, EMS service or even regular but important civil service jobs composed mostly of draftees. Now expand that to something as gargantuan and complex as the US Armed Forces. I hope you now have a clear picture. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 12:15:21 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 1 22:05:18 2015. I think you vastly overstate the complexity (as opposed to previous militaries) and understate the ability of the military to train for complex tasks. You also seem to assume that future wars will be like the current wars. This attitude has been exacerbated by the "push-button war" in the Balkans.And the modern professional military you laud has had some amazing modern professional f*ck-ups. Like the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. Like Beau Bergdahl. Like Major Hassan. And the people who let these people happen. The state of American males you identify is a social problem that this country is going to have to face someday, military or not. Do you feel that the writer of the "Chicken-hawk" article is mistaken in saying the country is too separated from the military? |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Mar 2 13:16:22 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 12:15:21 2015. Do you feel that the writer of the "Chicken-hawk" article is mistaken in saying the country is too separated from the military?The writer wants to militarize the country like the USSR was? And the modern professional military you laud has had some amazing modern professional f*ck-ups. Like the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. Like Beau Bergdahl. Like Major (Nidal) Hassan. And the people who let these people happen All down to leadership. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 13:18:39 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Mar 2 13:16:22 2015. Soviet Union reference is a red* herring.*Pun not intended. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Mar 2 13:20:20 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 13:18:39 2015. I doubt it, given the source material. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 13:25:17 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country?, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Mar 2 13:20:20 2015. Your citation of it is a red herring. Stated in less heroic language, this is the expectation of almost any organized sovereign state. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Mar 2 15:40:02 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 12:15:21 2015. And the modern professional military you laud has had some amazing modern professional f*ck-ups. Like the soldiers at Abu Ghraib. Like Beau Bergdahl. Like Major Hassan. And the people who let these people happen.Of course they do and always will. And past militaries had great heroes who earned MoHs, DSCs and Soldier's Medals. However, a draft would make the likes of Hassan and the Abu Ghraib Seven the norm rather than the exception. We already saw a glimpse of this when due to the unpopularity of Iraq, recruitment and retention dried up and the Army had to lower moral standards. Now imagine a draft. The state of American males you identify is a social problem that this country is going to have to face someday, military or not. Americans don't even want voluntary food standards in their school cafeterias. You think you're gonna get a ground-up "Patriotic Health Awakening" so that we can fight other people's wars? Most States didn't even set up their own ACA Exchanges or expand Medicaid. This country doesn't give a shit about health and wellness. Do you feel that the writer of the "Chicken-hawk" article is mistaken in saying the country is too separated from the military? He is right on target which is surprising given that he never served. Unfortunately there is no solution to this. Look at the responses here in the food stamps thread. Then look at the responses (or lack of) to "chickenhawk economy" (from the OP article). A country that objects to providing food earmarked mostly to children, elderly and the disabled but shrugs at multi-trillion dollar boondoggles like the F-35 is a country that is doomed. Yeah. Ffffffrreeeeeedom. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 15:53:27 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SMAZ on Mon Mar 2 15:40:02 2015. multi-trillion dollar boondoggles like the F-35 is a country that is doomed.But if they fail they would be rad on the Franklin Shuttle. |
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Re: Our Chickenhawk Country |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Mar 2 15:55:18 2015, in response to Re: Our Chickenhawk Country, posted by SLRT on Mon Mar 2 12:15:21 2015. I think you vastly overstate the complexity (as opposed to previous militaries) and understate the ability of the military to train for complex tasks. You also seem to assume that future wars will be like the current wars. This attitude has been exacerbated by the "push-button war" in the Balkans.I would like the add that while the complexity may be in fact overstated, the American public's zero tolerance for Americans deaths is not. Public opinion turned on Vietnam at around the 30,000th death. Same with Korea. It turned on Iraq and Afghanistan by the 1000th each (this even though the Afghanistan campaign was almost unanimously supported and seen as an act of national self-defense a la Pearl Harbor). The US military's main focus is to have the lowest casualties possible or no campaign will be supported and an even otherwise competent Presidential Administration will be politically destroyed. |
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