|
|
| NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola (1236148) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
| (1236148) | |
NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Oct 24 18:56:57 2014 Two U.S. states to quarantine health workers returning from Ebola zonesPhoto 6:30pm EDT By David Morgan and Ellen Wulfhorst WASHINGTON/NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York and New Jersey will automatically quarantine all medical workers returning from Ebola-hit West African countries, and the U.S. government is considering the same step after a doctor who treated patients in Guinea came back infected, officials said on Friday. The steps announced by the two states, which go beyond the current restrictions being imposed by the U.S. government on travelers from Liberia, Sierra Leone or Guinea, came as medical detectives tried to retrace the steps of the infected physician, Dr. Craig Spencer. "Increasing the screening process is necessary. I think it reduces the risk to New Yorkers and the residents of New Jersey," said New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. Cuomo, who appeared with the governor of neighboring New Jersey, Chris Christie, at a news conference, had earlier in the day sought to reassure New Yorkers that Ebola's threat was limited the day after Spencer tested positive for the virus. In Washington, President Barack Obama also sought to reassure a worried public with an Oval Office hug of Dallas nurse Nina Pham, who was declared Ebola-free on Friday after catching the virus from a Liberian patient who died. But Republican lawmakers, many of whom for weeks have called for a tougher response to Ebola, continued their criticism of the administration at a congressional hearing. In the first instance of the new move by the two governors, a female healthcare worker who had treated patients in West Africa and arrived at the Newark, New Jersey, airport was ordered into quarantine. Cuomo said the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had agreed that individual states have the right to exceed federal requirements. A federal quarantine of healthcare workers returning to the United States from the three West African countries was one of a number of options being discussed by administration officials, Tom Skinner, a CDC spokesman, told Reuters. Dr. Spencer, 33, who spent a month with the humanitarian group Doctors Without Borders in Guinea, was the fourth person diagnosed with the virus in the United States and the first in its largest city. Dr. Mary Travis Bassett, New York's health commissioner, said Spencer was awake and talking to family and friends by cellphone and was listed in stable condition in Bellevue Hospital's isolation unit. The Obama administration has implemented a series of steps aimed at preventing the further spread of Ebola in the United States but has stopped short of a travel ban on people from Liberia, Sierra Leone or Guinea called for by some politicians The United States is funneling travelers from those countries through five airports conducting special screening for signs of infection and is requiring them to report to health authorities for the 21-day Ebola virus incubation period. The airports include a New York City airport and a New Jersey airport that serve the metropolitan area. "We want to strike the right balance of doing what is best to protect the public’s health while not impeding whatsoever our ability to combat the epidemic in West Africa. Our risk here will not be zero until we stop the epidemic there," Skinner said. NURSE RELEASED Pham, one of two nurses from a Dallas hospital infected with Ebola after treating the first patient diagnosed with the disease in the United States, walked out smiling and unassisted from the Bethesda, Maryland hospital where she was treated. Emory University Hospital in Atlanta and the CDC also confirmed that the other nurse, Amber Vinson, no longer had detectable levels of virus but did not set a date for her to leave that facility. Pham, who was transferred to the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) Clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, from the Dallas hospital on Oct. 16, thanked her doctors at a news briefing. Looking fit in a dark blazer and a turquoise blouse, Pham said that even though she no longer is infected, "I know that it may be a while before I have my strength back." She said she looked forward to seeing her family and her dog. Photos of the Oval Office meeting showed Obama hugging Pham. Reporters and television cameras were not allowed in for the meeting. Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the NIH's National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he could not pinpoint any one factor that contributed to Pham’s speedy recovery. He said it could be any of a number of factors, including the fact that “she's young and very healthy” and was able to get intensive care very quickly. Spencer finished his work in Guinea on Oct. 12 and arrived at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York on Oct. 17. Six days later, he was quarantined at Bellevue Hospital with Ebola. The three previous cases diagnosed in the United States were in Dallas. Three people who had close contact with Spencer were quarantined for observation. The doctor's fiancée was among them and was isolated at the same hospital, and all three were still healthy, officials said. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio said city health department detectives were retracing all the steps taken by Spencer, but said the doctor poses no threat to others and urged New Yorkers to stick to their daily routines. Health officials emphasized that the virus is not airborne but is spread through direct contact with bodily fluids from an infected person who is showing symptoms. U.S. stocks closed out their best week since January 2013 as concerns over the possible spread of Ebola that arose after Spencer was diagnosed eased. The worst Ebola outbreak since the disease was identified in 1976 has killed at least 4,877 people and perhaps as many as 15,000, predominantly in Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea, according to the World Health Organization (WHO). Spencer's case brought to nine the total number of people treated for Ebola in U.S. hospitals since August. Just two, the nurses who treated Liberian national Thomas Eric Duncan, contracted the virus in the United States. Duncan died on Oct. 8 at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas, where Pham and Vinson were infected. Obama's response to Ebola ran into fresh criticism from Republicans during the congressional hearing. Republican Representative Darrell Issa of California, who chairs the House of Representatives Oversight Committee, blasted the "bumbling" administration response, saying it had been characterized by missteps and ill-considered procedures to protect U.S. healthcare workers at home and troops in West Africa. Local officials told New Yorkers they were safe even though Spencer had ridden subways, taken a cab and visited a bowling alley in Brooklyn between his return from Guinea and the onset of symptoms. Authorities on Friday declared the bowling alley safe. Cuomo said that unlike in Dallas, New York officials had time to thoroughly prepare and drill for the possibility of a case emerging in the city. "From a public health point of view, I feel confident that we’re doing everything that we should be doing, and we have the situation under control," Cuomo said. (Additional reporting by Edward McAllister, Sebastien Malo, Frank McGurty, Barbara Goldberg, Luc Cohen, Robert Gibbons, Natasja Sheriff, Frank McGurty, Jonathan Allen, Ellen Wulfhorst and Laila Kearney in New York, and Bill Trott, Steve Holland, David Morgan and Toni Clarke in Washington; Writing by Will Dunham; Editing by Jonathan Oatis) |
|
|
| (1236213) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 00:45:25 2014, in response to NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Oct 24 18:56:57 2014. Erect the Maginot Line?We'll have to ask Masters and Johnson about that...... The Maginot Line didn't work in the spring of 1940, so we need to structure something much better and effective now. |
|
|
| (1236221) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 00:57:48 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 00:45:25 2014. A lathered public requires a Homeland Security style response. They didn't learn from the government sniff at the airports yet as to how security theater just keeps working and working and working. :(There actually IS a solution that's unobtrusive, but then we can't have that. 24/7 instant news isn't interested in solutions, it'll just make the lemmings go away to SportsCenter again and it's RATINGS time! See this? THIS is how Cambodia is dealing with potential Ebola victims, using FLIR (Infrared cameras designed to light up a face red if feverish) ... can't have THAT shit here. Nope. We demand President Ebola's throat. And requiring airports to use this stuff would be socialism. And it costs a couple hundred dollars for each device and that would result in no more tax cuts. Can't have THAT either!  It *WORKS!* (and doesn't even need to personally identify anyone either. I guess THAT'S the fail here) |
|
|
| (1236228) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 01:08:56 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 00:57:48 2014. and we can also see Joe McCarthy and Robert Welch standing in the wings besides Mr. Goebbels' ghost. |
|
|
| (1236229) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 01:10:19 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 00:57:48 2014. Could you just IMAGINE the republicans putting up money to deploy this shit here and then having to explain to all their fucktards that they may need to put up some taxes to pay for it and actually DO something that costs money?Or maybe they can go full socialist and make the airlines pay for it. Communism! The more they keep playing this game, the more they're going to pay in 2016 for it. Nah. :( |
|
|
| (1236232) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 01:21:50 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 01:08:56 2014. That's just another thing that pisses me off *SO* much about neandercons. There *ARE* solutions to just about every issue. Sadly, some of them cost money. And they'd rather play the blame game and try to score points with the INCREDIBLY stupid rather than fix ANYTHING. :( |
|
|
| (1236235) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 01:37:11 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 00:57:48 2014. For anyone interested in the tech here, this was developed years ago during the SARS epidemic by the Chinese. The "couple hundred dollars" piece of equipment I am talking about is a shitty old webcam with the "Infrared filter" in the lens removed. The whole reason for that filter in ALL webcams is because SONY came up with a webcam back 10 or more years ago that had the unfortunate property of showing tits and crack in low light and so they blocked IR (as well as other webcam makers) to solve that problem. CCD cameras are more responsive to IR than they are to visible light.Once you have IR video, you can set the temperature you want as a trigger in simple software code that says "IR level above THIS temperature" adds a color on top of the image. Most security systems have this capability and have since the days of vidicon cameras (yeah, the 80's). Everything that's needed is right off the shelf everywhere but America and a few parts of Europe because ... kiddy porn. They might see Melissa's snatch light up. :-\ In the RIGHT hands, problem solved. But people are stupid. |
|
|
| (1236239) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Sat Oct 25 02:37:30 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 01:37:11 2014. Typical CCDs are that sensitive, that it can pick up a degree or 2 of difference? That's a surprise - even dedicated "pointer" thermometers aren't really that accurate, and I figure they're using the same tech. |
|
|
| (1236240) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 02:58:48 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by 3-9 on Sat Oct 25 02:37:30 2014. They can with "dithering" or software assistance. Yes. Even the old one can. It's merely a matter of shifting the array voltage.Here's the product Cambodia is using: http://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/en/cores/emccd/products/ In this case, the temperature differential between normal body temperature ranges and fever is significant enough that even low end devices can be effectively used for screening, and that makes all the difference. Here are some of the more expensive toys when you need an absolute number: http://www.azooptics.com/optics-equipment.aspx?cat=75 John Fluke instruments and a number of other vendors are also in that space. However, screening for security purposes pretty much requires only a "go-no go" detect quality. |
|
|
| (1236244) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 03:30:14 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 01:21:50 2014. smoke and foggy mirrors = disinformation.... :(given the BS level, I think Spiro Agnew's ghost must be loitering aroud somewhere too. The Whittier boy couldn't make it, he's having milk and cookies with Mao, while still egging Whitticker Chambers' spriti to keep kicking Alger Hiss's. And Henry the K is down there as well, making moonshine |
|
|
| (1236255) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 08:21:10 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 00:45:25 2014. The Maginot Line didn't work in the spring of 1940The reason it did not work is that it wasn't complete. The Germans simply went around it. A quarantine at only JFK and EWK is meaningless. It won't protect even NY/NJ. All a traveler has to do is fly to Washington, Chicago or Atlanta and then travel over land to NY/NJ. I suspect that asymptotic travelers will opt for Washington. They have this choice: spend 21 days in quarantine or go through Dulles and take Amtrak to NYC. Do NY/NJ have the resources to place all the people entering NY/NJ in quarantine? The number of quarantine possibilities is running about 10 per day. Quarantining them for 21 days means they need quarantine facilities for 210 patients. Do they exist? The facilities have to be more elaborate than the fleabag hotels used to sequester juries. Ordinary hospital rooms are not appropriate. You need rooms with negative air pressure, trained personnel to care for those in quarantine, etc. You are talking about expenses that exceed those of an ICU. At $5K per patient-day that comes to $1.05 million per day. The incidence for Ebola among the people in the target areas is less than 0.1%. Therefore, this quarantine would be expected to trap one Ebola victim every 3 months at a cost of $105 million. That one person might have come in via Dulles, so the Maginot Line quarantine might not have trapped him. One reason cited for the high cost of medical care in the US is excessive use of defensive medicine. None of the examples used to demonstrate defensive medicine compares to the waste involved with the NY/NJ quarantine. |
|
|
| (1236257) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by train dude on Sat Oct 25 08:30:36 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 08:21:10 2014. So then you feel that it would be more cost effective not to screen & quarantine? We let the very rare case of ebola in and then deal with the consequences? Interesting analysis. Have you shared your thoughts with mayor diblasio? |
|
|
| (1236259) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 25 08:47:34 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 08:21:10 2014. It's not clear that what NY and NJ plan is really a medical quarantine, or if it's more like non-medical isolation. After all, the people being isolated probably don't have ebola. Maybe they are just going to rent out a motel or two.Officials from New York and New Jersey said they were still working out many details, including where people would be quarantined, how the quarantine would be enforced and how they would handle travelers who do not live in either of those states. Link |
|
|
| (1236274) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 09:19:22 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 00:57:48 2014. Put down the partisan tripe for a moment and consider that once someone was feverish enough to be detected on that machine, they'd probably already have become a public health risk either on board the plane or wherever else they've been. This isn't a travel ban, it's a reasonable precaution considering. |
|
|
| (1236276) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 09:23:27 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 00:45:25 2014. Actually, The Maginot Line was formidable enough that Rommel decided to go around it. The tragedy of 1940 was the utter stupidity of the French high command to think Germany would respect Belgian neutrality. |
|
|
| (1236279) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 09:50:28 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by AlM on Sat Oct 25 08:47:34 2014. the people being isolated probably don't have ebola. Maybe they are just going to rent out a motel or two.The first problem is securing the fleabag motel. How will you keep the people amused for 21 days? They will want to bust out after a few days of TV reruns and institutional food. The second problem is how will the people's health be monitored? Who will take the people's temperature? If it's the patients themselves, who will monitor the accuracy of the readings? How will the motel workers be protected against the 0.1% of the people who actually do have Ebola? Any misstep and Ebola will be spread because of this pseudo quarantine. |
|
|
| (1236280) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat Oct 25 09:55:07 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 09:50:28 2014. Agreed. Lots of obstacles to doing it well. I was just pointing out that they don't intend to actually hospitalize the people. |
|
|
| (1236286) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Oct 25 11:10:51 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by train dude on Sat Oct 25 08:30:36 2014. So then you feel that it would be more cost effective not to screen & quarantine?There are lots of steps between a complete quarantine and completely ignoring the danger. Just because somebody does a rudimentary cost-benefit analysis for a complete quarantine does not mean he favors ignoring the danger. The medical professionals had time to devise protocols to deal with this problem. They were able to tailor the protocol with Ebola's unique transmission vector. This allowed them to forego some of the costly procedures necessary to combat a more easily communicable disease. Ebola isn't communicable until the person is very sick. The protocol did a temperature screening at entry to verify that the person wasn't already sick. It then assumed that an infected person would contact the US health care system, if he became sick and before he became very sick. The health care system would then isolate him to prevent the spread to others. The first two parts of the protocol worked for the two Ebola cases. The Dallas health care system fell down on the third part of the protocol. NYC's health care system has not. Have you shared your thoughts with mayor diblasio? I did not. Apparantly, neither did Cuomo and Christie. Link. Within the city, an unexpected policy shift by Mr. Cuomo on Friday appeared to open up a public divide between the governor and the administration of Mr. de Blasio, a fellow Democrat. The city’s health commissioner, Dr. Mary T. Bassett, was not informed in advance of the Cuomo-Christie mandatory quarantine order and was “furious,” a senior city official who spoke to her said. |
|
|
| (1236302) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 12:27:49 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 09:19:22 2014. So let's do nothing to detect someone who already is showing symptoms from getting ON that plane or into the country? Let's strap everybody down on a guerney on their way to the train and hold them on the mezzanine until the blood tests come back? |
|
|
| (1236305) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 12:43:37 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 25 12:27:49 2014. Let's have a mature and informed conversation on a very serious matter like civil adults. This edict does not apply to everyone coming from West Africa but medical professionals who most certainly have had contact with ebola patients. No one's preventing anyone fromgoing to or coming from these countries to do this very serious and extraordinary work, but simply taking reasonable precautions. As for the medical professionals currently working on the doctor at Bellevue, they should be monitored if not quarantined as well. Another idea would be for blood tests upon arrival which would reduce the length of the quarantine period. |
|
|
| (1236306) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by bingbong on Sat Oct 25 12:47:03 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 12:43:37 2014. The blood test doesn't ow positives until the onset of initial symptoms. |
|
|
| (1236321) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 25 13:45:02 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by bingbong on Sat Oct 25 12:47:03 2014. Actually not quite true but I'm impressed that you are almost correct. According to the CDC website, Ebola can be detected in blood samples after the onset of symptoms - usually 3 days after symptoms appear. |
|
|
| (1236323) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 25 13:48:10 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Oct 25 12:43:37 2014. "When Specimens Should Be Collected for Ebola Testing at CDCEbola virus is detected in blood only after the onset of symptoms, usually fever. It may take up to 3 days after symptoms appear for the virus to reach detectable levels. Virus is generally detectable by real-time RT-PCR from 3-10 days after symptoms appear. Specimens ideally should be taken when a symptomatic patient reports to a healthcare facility and is suspected of having an Ebola exposure. However, if the onset of symptoms is <3 days, a later specimen may be needed to completely rule-out Ebola virus, if the first specimen tests negative." Source: http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/interim-guidance-specimen-collection-submission-patients-suspected-infection-ebola.html |
|
|
| (1236363) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat Oct 25 18:14:51 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 00:45:25 2014. The Maginot Line didn't work in the spring of 1940...Actually, from what I've read it worked perfectly for its intended purpose— stopping the Germans from crossing the border directly, forcing them to take a circuitous route through north Belgium or a slow and difficult route through the Ardennes. They went through the Ardennes but managed to trick the Allies into thinking they wouldn't dare— had the Allies reacted earlier, the Germans wouldn't have made it to the French border. |
|
|
| (1236448) | |
Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola |
|
|
Posted by Express Rider on Sat Oct 25 21:09:16 2014, in response to Re: NY/NJ Erect Maginot Line Against Ebola, posted by Nilet on Sat Oct 25 18:14:51 2014. "forcing them to take a circuitous route through north Belgium"I read (and heard in lectures) that this circuitous route through north Belgium, was an offensive tactic, planned by the German General staff to enter northern Belgium and the low countries to the south in an extensive pincer movement of German armies, using an effective combination of their panzer divisions and the army, to surround the allies in the Ardennes. This was attempted in WW I, but did not work out. It was successful in WW II, hence the French army falling apart, and the British retreat to Dunkirk. I read the following book some years ago. Though it covers the French Resistance, one of its first background chapters, is an excellent short history of the Battle of France, describing how the French General staff was disorganized, had not planned effectively, nor was prepared, to rebut the organized Panzer movements, backed up by the army and the Luftwaffe. Things fell apart for France, though they had more soldiers and tanks than the Germans. The German's plan was to outflank the Maginot Line (with it's stationary defenses), not even deal with it, and go around it, through Belgium and the low countries instead, to enact the pincer movement plan. In 25-30 pages, the main points of the entire sad campaign are summarized very well. I highly recommend getting it out of the library if only to read this one chapter: Schoenbrun, David (1980). Soldiers of the Night, The Story of the French Resistance. New American Library. ISBN 978-0-452-00612-6 Hope this is some explanation. I realize full well, that my post is also a very general summary. |
|
|