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| No New MTA Queens Bus Map (350240) | |
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| (350240) | |
No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Thu Jul 3 13:27:25 2025 If you go to mta.info to try to find the current Queens bus map, you get this message:The Queens Bus Map is temporarily unavailable while we make updates as part of the Queens Bus Network Redesign. Use the Trip Planner on the MTA homepage or in the MTA app to plan your trip. Is this going to be the case until after August 31? Are they not going to issue an intermediate (between the two phases of the Queens bus redesign) map? |
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| (350241) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 3 18:10:02 2025, in response to No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Thu Jul 3 13:27:25 2025. I suggest you contact MTA for an answer. |
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| (350242) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by B1bus on Thu Jul 3 20:38:53 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 3 18:10:02 2025. No new bus map. I contacted them already. |
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| (350243) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 3 22:43:55 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by B1bus on Thu Jul 3 20:38:53 2025. Maybe they're waiting till phase 2 at the end of August? |
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| (350244) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jul 4 05:21:28 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by B1bus on Thu Jul 3 20:38:53 2025. Back before the Internet they almost definitely would have done one. But with online trip-planners and all of the work put in advertising the changes, it probably doesn't justify the expense for just two months.Why are there two phases anyway? Something to do with picks? |
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| (350245) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by B1bus on Fri Jul 4 20:25:50 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 3 22:43:55 2025. yep |
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| (350246) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by B1bus on Fri Jul 4 20:25:50 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jul 3 22:43:55 2025. yep |
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| (350247) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Fri Jul 4 20:28:36 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jul 4 05:21:28 2025. In the late 1970s, when the San Francisco Municipal Railway was doing their major system redesign that would their system out of the prior era of two competing transit systems (i.e., Muni and Market Street Railway), it issued a series of "interim" maps that were simple black ink on white paper, no background street grid, and not the full color detailed maps it had traditionally used. They were an effective way in which to get out important information quickly, knowing that it would soon change, but not at excessive expense.Trip planners generally do not give passengers the system overview necessary to truly understand the system structure, but are instead designed to only provide specific travel instructions to be followed blindly. Additionally, not everyone has a mobile device that they can carry with them, and something printed on paper is needed by them the navigate effectively. The same system of printing interim maps, as was done in San Francisco many decades ago, should have been done here by the MTA. Not informing passengers of the system structure, other than through online trip planners, is not an adequate measure, and wastes much of the effort and expense that MTA invested in the system redesign. |
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| (350248) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Jul 4 22:53:11 2025, in response to No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Thu Jul 3 13:27:25 2025. Doesn't inspire confidence in this re-invention of the wheel / shuffling of deck chairs, does it |
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| (350249) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Fri Jul 4 23:08:50 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Fri Jul 4 20:28:36 2025. To be fair, the trip planner isn't the only source of this information. The Queens Bus Redesign document shows all of the new routes. However, it doesn't show which ones changed at the end of June vs. those that won't change until the end of August.Anyhow, September will arrive sooner than we think, and this won't be a "thing" anymore and we can all forget about it. That is, unless they delay putting out a new Queens bus map even then. |
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| (350251) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sat Jul 5 11:36:48 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Fri Jul 4 23:08:50 2025. Redesigns are very risky for transit agencies. If not accepted by the community--be it because the transit agency did not do a good job or because the transit agency did not market it well--then it can have serious consequences. We saw that before when the very first proposal was released and Andy Byford was besieged with complaints. Thus, wise transit agencies will do all that they can to minimize the risks by providing as many resources as practicable to gain community acceptance. I would think that providing an interim map, covering the period of July and August, would have been one of those resources, lest there be the risk within these two months of losing community support. In the end it may turn out to have been unnecessary, but it is a risk I would have been uncomfortable taking were I a person in charge within the MTA. |
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| (350252) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Sat Jul 5 11:57:59 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Sat Jul 5 11:36:48 2025. I wonder how this redesign process would have played out had the private companies stuck around? |
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| (350253) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Sat Jul 5 13:26:40 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Sat Jul 5 11:57:59 2025. Many of the redesign proposals (accepted and otherwise) might never have happened if the private companies were still in business. Pre-redesign and post-takeover examples include the extension of the Q19 to Flushing and the creation of the Q70.The rush routes that cover parts of formerly private routes would likely have run into opposition from those companies. |
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| (350254) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Sat Jul 5 17:14:36 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Sat Jul 5 13:26:40 2025. Or had Bloomberg not forced the issue in the 2000s, would the redesign be the thing that forced the private companies out of business? |
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| (350259) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Jul 7 15:45:13 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Sat Jul 5 13:26:40 2025. The issue was not so much the private companies as it was the NYC DOT. Triboro Coach had plans for extending Q19 into Flushing, and for BQE bus service between Jackson Heights and LaGuardia Airport. These and other plans were not pursued because NYC DOT refused to act. |
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| (350260) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Mon Jul 7 16:10:59 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Mon Jul 7 15:45:13 2025. BQE bus service was a Triboro Coach idea? I'd love to see a list of private company ideas and which ones ended up happening and which ones didn't for both local and express. I wonder if such a list existed? |
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| (350261) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Jul 7 16:53:09 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Mon Jul 7 16:10:59 2025. The plan that got the furthest was a revision to route B103, so as to provide service to and from Gateway Center Mall. The route had already been extended informally during peak periods along Flatlands Avenue as far as Fountain Avenue (not formally because NYC DOT refused to allow service improvements), and it was a simple matter to loop buses around the mall. Most of the cost of service is driver wages, and the loop around the mall would have been minimal to make the operating cost negligible (net cost was actually in the black because of the additional fare revenue that would be generated). It got as far as the company getting the necessary support from the Brooklyn borough president's office, but it could not get NYC DOT approval. At the time NYC DOT was on a mission to make privately-operated bus service as bad as possible so that it could "prove" that MTA did better.Other plans were on the drawing board but could not be pursued because it would have been futile with NYC DOT in control. For example, the Q112 would have been re-extended westward from Cross Bay Boulevard to Cityline, Q113 service along Rockaway Boulevard and Nassau Expressway. Route Q22A to Bayswater would have been resumed. Better service to Beach 222nd Street (Breezy Point) on Q22 beyond the one-round operated on school days only. Better service on both Beach Channel Drive and Rockaway Beach Boulevard-Edgemere Avenue as Arverne and surrounding areas developed (not quite a resumption of Q21A service but similar). Reconfiguration of Q9, Q10, and Q37 in South Ozone Park. Separation of Q11 and Q41 service into Howard Beach, Hamilton Beach, and Lindenwood into dedicated service to and from Liberty Avenue. Added stops on Q53 at 165th Avenue and Liberty Avenue, to improve connectivity with other bus and subway routes, but otherwise keeping the express service to Elmhurst, Jackson Heights, and Woodside. Restructuring of Q47, Q45, Q18, and possibly Q67, to create a strong north-south route along 69th Street corridor between the airport and Metropolitan Avenue. Extension of Q23 and Q72 into the airport. With new BQE service into the airport, rerouting of Q33 along Ditmars Boulevard to 31st Street, with both Q19A and Q33 terminating on 31st Street at the subway station. All subject to public comment, of course. But no single master plan . . . most everything was thought to be best implemented incrementally, not all at once. Once the routes were transferred to MTABC, it was MTABC that was able to implement some of the changes that the private companies had planned, as well as other changes or versions thereof. |
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| (350262) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Mon Jul 7 20:31:44 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Mon Jul 7 16:53:09 2025. Thanks so much for this post! This is so helpful. I have also heard other plans as well too such as when QM22, QM24 and QM24W were proposed, Triboro Coach also reportedly proposed a Corona-Midtown express bus, but that was dropped. |
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| (350263) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Mon Jul 7 22:25:21 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Mon Jul 7 16:53:09 2025. the Q112 would have been re-extended westward from Cross Bay Boulevard to CitylineDo you mean the Queens/Brooklyn borderline? And would that have been along Rockaway Blvd. (like the Q7 in the new design), along Liberty Ave. paralleling the A train, or to replace Q7 service to Brooklyn (like the Q112 in the new design)? Better service to Beach 222nd Street (Breezy Point) on Q22 beyond the one-round operated on school days only. Is this an actual current thing? I had no idea there was any bus service west of Beach 169th Street at all. |
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| (350264) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jul 8 20:09:20 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Mon Jul 7 22:25:21 2025. There was the one run mentioned, during GBL days, but I don't think it went as far out as Beach 222nd. I don't have the old map handy but I think it turned onto Cooperative streets at B 219th and went around the block to B 220th. I don't know how that played out with the Cooperative as I thought that all streets off Rockaway Point Blvd in that area were private streets.Then there's the QBM1 that for some reason hardly anyone seems to know much about. Wikipedia has it as beginning at B 217th, or just beyond the famous Kennedy's restaurant, but I'm guessing sticking to the (public) main road (Rockaway Pt Blvd) and it was an express bus to Manhattan. |
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| (350266) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 07:50:05 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jul 8 20:09:20 2025. It was Beach 222nd Street.https://web.archive.org/web/20120114023627/http://www.triborocoach.com/maps/q22e.pdf Also the QBM1 and QBM2 were operated by Erin Tours which had a colorful history to say the least and a bitter relationship with Command Bus Company from what I have heard. |
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| (350267) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 11:55:13 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 07:50:05 2025. Why is this Q22 map under triborocoach.com if it's a Green Bus Lines route?There's no date on the map, but since it omits any references to the Q21A it must have been some time after that route was discontinued (see below). Does "school days only" mean 1 or 2 runs per day, or all day service on weekdays excluding summer? What about that additional service into Nassau County? Note: I tried to verify when the Q21A was discontinued but couldn't find a reliable date anywhere except for the bizarre Google AI summary: --- The Q21a bus was discontinued in the summer of 1999 due to low ridership. The section between Rockaway Park and Jacob Riis Park was replaced by the Q22 and the B38, with the B38 being extended to Rockaway Park via Newton Road and renumbered as the Q35. Service between Rockaway Park and Howard Beach remained as the Q21. --- Maybe there's some ancient history (B38???) behind the Q35 there that I should learn about. (And Newton Road is apparently meant to be Newport Avenue.) But that has nothing to do with the Q21A that I remember from the 1960s and 1970s. |
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| (350268) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 12:33:53 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 11:55:13 2025. This is from about 2000 and all the GTJ companies shared a common schedule info page. The Q21A was discontinued in 1990. I wonder what the rationale was for it being discontinued. If anything, I remember hearing that the Q21A was more popular than the Q21. |
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| (350269) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 13:42:03 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 12:33:53 2025. If the Q21A was more popular than the Q21, that wouldn't surprise me since the Q21 headways were so bad, not that the Q21A headways were much better.My guess is that folks weren't enamored with taking a bus to the New Lots subway when they would much prefer to connect with the A train; also, the Q21A and Q22 had been switched some time ago in the Arverne-Edgemere region and that relegated the Q21A to serving a virtually abandoned corridor of RBB. |
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| (350270) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:12:23 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Mon Jul 7 22:25:21 2025. Consideration was given to returning the Q112 to Cityline via Liberty Avenue. It had been cut back to Cross Bay Boulevard because of the LIRR crossing. There was also loss of patronage when the elevated line was built overhead. Either the Q112 ought to have been cut back to Lefferts Boulevard to have avoided the competitive service completely, or continued to Cityline, but having it cut back to Cross Bay Boulevard made no sense. |
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| (350271) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:17:07 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 07:50:05 2025. Erin Tours eventually combined with Metro Apple Express, and the relationship between the principals of those operations thereafter soured. The principal of Erin Tours has since passed, while the principal of Metro Apple Express continues having an active role relating to privately-operated bus service in NYC. |
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| (350272) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 19:24:55 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:12:23 2025. It had terminated around 101st St. (just short of the railroad ROW) but was later extended to Cross Bay Blvd. |
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| (350273) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:51:51 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 11:55:13 2025. "School days only" meant only when schools were open because virtually all the passengers were school children going to and from school. For Beach 222nd Street service there was only a single trip in each direction.The Q113 service in Nassau County would have been similar to what MTABC is now operating along the expressway and Central Avenue. Another part of route Q113 that was reviewed is the service beyond Mott Avenue to Seagirt Boulevard. Originally the street railway service ended at Mott Avenue, but after conversion to bus it was extended to Seagirt Boulevard because of the beach. So many people coming into Far Rockaway--including LIRR passengers--were destined for the beach (at least in summer). But in more recent years the beach is much less important. We thought that terminating the Q113 at the Mott Avenue hub made sense and allow for better management of the service. It would have been a revived Q22A that replaced it, operating an entirely local service from Bayswater, along Mott Avenue, Beach 9th Street, and Seagirt Boulevard, that would have replaced the Q113. Route Q21A was discontinued before 1999, it was at some point during the early 1990s. Both Q21 and Q21A had developed awful schedules. Whenever an extra bus was need for this or for that, it was taken off one of those schedules. No adjustment was made to fix the headway intervals, and as a result the scheduled service on both routes became a complete mess. Neither the New Lots service nor the Edgemere Avenue service was well-used (especially because all the houses in Arverne had long been demolished). Previously Q22 operated along Edgemere Avenue and Q21A on Beach Channel Drive, but these had been swapped, leaving Q21A to be without any ridership. So both Q21 and Q21A were combined into a single service from Liberty Avenue via Lindenwood (which had been served only by Q21A, while Q21 remained on Cross Bay Boulevard) to Beach 116th Street. The resulting problems were that (1) the Q21 still operated with virtually no passengers, and (2) neither the area then being developed along Edgemere Avenue nor Beach Channel Drive between Beach 35th Street and Mott Avenue would have any service at all. What we had in mind was to replace Q21 along Cross Bay Boulevard with Q53 service making local stops between 165th Avenue and Rockaway Beach Boulevard (but only in theory because there were very few passengers in Broad Channel), and to have some type of service along Edgemere Avenue and Beach Channel Drive once there was enough redelopment. |
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| (350274) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:56:20 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 19:24:55 2025. Yes, the cutback had been made in the street railway era, and it was made just east of the LIRR crossing, but after conversion to buses it turned around at 96th Street. Effectively Cross Bay Boulevard, even though neither the cut-rail line nor the bus line actually reached the boulevard. |
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| (350275) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 20:46:38 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:51:51 2025. Was there ever any thought of extending the Q53 deeper into Rockaway such as to Beach 169th street? Honestly as it is right now, the Q22 has low utilization between beach 116th and 169th streets. At least a mainland connection would have helped. Maybe keep the Q22 service west of beach 116th alongside the breezy point service and I would have had a Q53 that ran an extended route to 169th street. Of note, when MTA extended the QM16 along Rockaway beach boulevard from beach 116th to 147th street, it was so successful that the majority of QM16 ridership now is west of beach 116th street. I would assume resources are too limited for more QM16’s but more express Q53’s would make a lot of sense. Basically Newport Avenue for Q35 to Flatbush and Rockaway beach boulevard for Q53’s to woodside. |
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| (350278) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 22:40:32 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 20:46:38 2025. After August 31 the Q22 will have zero utilization between Beach 116th and 169th Streets, because it will have been cut back to terminate at Beach 116th St. The Q35 will be the only game in town along there.Extending the Q53 to serve that section is an intriguing idea. I wonder if anyone at the MTA considered it. |
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| (350279) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jul 9 23:27:59 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Snilcher on Wed Jul 9 22:40:32 2025. They're not going to cut the Q22 just to have the Q53-SBS take its' place. |
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| (350280) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jul 10 09:43:27 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 20:46:38 2025. No, there had never been any serious consideration by Triboro Coach of sending Q53 further west on the peninsula. |
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| (350281) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Thu Jul 10 10:50:21 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Thu Jul 10 09:43:27 2025. On a side note, did they have plans for off peak QM24 service by any chance? Or did any of the Transit Alliance companies any other expanded express bus service? |
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| (350282) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jul 10 12:17:42 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jul 9 07:50:05 2025. Thanks for that map. For some reason I thought it just went around one block, instead of going all the way out to B 222. Anyway today there is a gate at B 219 coming off the main road so if that gate was also there at the time then the bus needed some arrangement in place - whether it was having local security open the gate for it or letting the driver have a key. |
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| (350283) | |
Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map |
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Posted by Allen45 on Thu Jul 10 12:50:52 2025, in response to Re: No New MTA Queens Bus Map, posted by BusMgr on Wed Jul 9 19:17:07 2025. Yes Patcon associates. |
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