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| History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue (344017) | |
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| (344017) | |
History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Joe on Sun Nov 28 12:36:15 2021 Today, friends are taking the LIRR to Woodside and riding the Q18 to Astoria. I can recall the 30th Avenue (Grand Avenue?) bus in the 1940's when we would sometimes ride it to the Interborough above 31st Street. We rode it west from 44th Street only when a bus was in sight. Otherwise we walked.--- The route seems to have had a long history. Was it created in the 1920's? Has there been any substantial change in the path? |
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| (344021) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 28 22:31:32 2021, in response to History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Joe on Sun Nov 28 12:36:15 2021. No substantial changes to the Q18 over the years, but for it being combined with route Q24, creating a through route beyond Woodside to Maspeth. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Tue Nov 30 16:57:25 2021, in response to History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Joe on Sun Nov 28 12:36:15 2021. Indeed 30th Ave. used to be Grand Ave. Though the name was officially changed in the 1920s, locals continued using Grand Ave. well into the 1960s, no doubt helped by the use of that name on the BMT subway station. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Nov 30 17:33:42 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Italianstallion on Tue Nov 30 16:57:25 2021. There is a Grand Avenue Pizza at 34-24 30th Avenue. Classic “artifact title.” |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Snilcher on Wed Dec 1 10:43:34 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Italianstallion on Tue Nov 30 16:57:25 2021. So, was Grand Avenue in Maspeth/Elmhurst named thus at the same time as what is now 30th Avenue? (Since the Brooklyn portion is named Grand Street, perhaps that was the name in Queens as well, but changed to Avenue to conform to the numbering scheme with N/S streets and E/W avenues.)Were there other street name conflicts between Queens neighborhoods that were only resolved by the move to borough-wide street numbering? |
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| (344051) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Wed Dec 1 12:27:01 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Wed Dec 1 10:43:34 2021. I wrote this for a Motor Coach Age article about Old new York a few years ago. I hope it helps explain thingsA Note About Streets Names In Queens – Since it developed as a collection of mostly small communities, Queens contained multiple streets of the same name, e.g., ten Main Streets, about 30 named Washington, and several Grand thoroughfares. To rationalize a system for the emerging urban borough, most roads were given numerical names (1st to 271st Streets, west to east, and 1st to 165th Avenues, north to south, and other intervening ones) beginning in 1915 (in the Richmond Hill area) and ending in 1926 (Springfield). The Rockaway Peninsula has its own street numbers preceded by Beach. Despite the changes, some of the names officially out of use for close to 100 years live on through subway station signs and common usage. |
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| (344054) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Joe on Wed Dec 1 12:51:00 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Wed Dec 1 12:27:01 2021. Many thanks to X-Astorian, who customarily is informative and precise. In one of the few times I was executor of a will, I researched a friend born at home on 100th Street, Corona. In his early life, he lived when the street was changed from a name (which I now forget) to a numbered street (a continuation of Jackson Heights), and finally about 1922 100th Street. X-Astorian correctly shows how the implementation of the Philadelphia Plan was done over several years.--- It appears that there was only one previous name of 30th Avenue, namely Grand Avenue. --- At the 65th Street station on the R local, a group of tiles spell the old name Rowan Street. --- I favor station designations as 33 St.- Rawson Street because they remind the traveler that it is not Manhattan. |
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| (344056) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 13:04:20 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Wed Dec 1 10:43:34 2021. Grand Avenue in Maspeth was in fact Grand Street. |
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| (344058) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Wed Dec 1 17:03:07 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Joe on Wed Dec 1 12:51:00 2021. Many thanks to X-Astorian, who customarily is informative and precise.You're welcome. Aw shucks (I think). X-A |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Snilcher on Thu Dec 2 11:00:21 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 28 22:31:32 2021. In fact, there was a change to the Q18 when the western terminus was changed from the Astoria Houses cul-de-sac on Astoria Blvd. off 8th St. to the current terminus at 27th Ave. and 2nd St., along with the Q102 and Q103 (and later the Q19). I don't know the date of that change, so maybe our local historian will weigh in with the details. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 2 14:48:29 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Joe on Wed Dec 1 12:51:00 2021. always loved beebe avenue. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Thu Dec 2 18:21:07 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Thu Dec 2 11:00:21 2021. Well, there were few minor changes over the years. The original western terminal of the Woodside-Astoria Transportation Co. Grand Avenue bus (later Triboro Q18) was the 92nd Street Ferry slip at the foot of Astoria Blvd along with another W-A route which went up 21st Street to Ditmars Blvd and then east (Q19A); Steinway Lines streetcars on the Broadway, Flushing Avenue (Astoria Blvd), Vernon Blvd and 31st Street routes also terminated there. This continued even after ferry service ended in July 1936 with the opening of the Triborough Bridge.Sometime after the Astoria Houses were constructed between 1949 and 1951, Astoria Blvd ceased being a through street and buses of the Q18, Q102 and Q103 turned at what was known as the 4th Street loop. The December 1988 Queens bus map showed the Q18 running on 30th Avenue to 8th Street, north to 27th Avenue east to 12th Street and return to 30th Avenue. This loop continued until a new terminal was set at 27th Avenue and 2nd Street (first shown on my March 2004 Queens map). To me a more significant change was routing the buses off of 47th Street between 30th Avenue and Broadway and onto Hobart Street (later also 51st after the Woodside Houses were built in 1949 and eliminated Hobart Street below 31st Avenue) eastbound (54th to Hobart Street westbound). This probably occurred in the late 1930s or very early 1940s because the 1942 Queens red book street guide shows the current routing. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by BusMgr on Thu Dec 2 22:12:49 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Thu Dec 2 18:21:07 2021. All fairly minor adjustments, not affecting the service area of the route. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Thu Dec 2 22:50:26 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by BusMgr on Thu Dec 2 22:12:49 2021. Exactly. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Dec 4 13:01:25 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Thu Dec 2 18:21:07 2021. When did the Q19A starting heading south to Queensboro Plaza? |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Sat Dec 4 22:43:23 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Dec 4 13:01:25 2021. When did the Q19A starting heading south to Queensboro Plaza?Certainly by 1935 when it was included in a franchise description but likely much earlier. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 5 09:45:17 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Sat Dec 4 22:43:23 2021. Didn't the Q19 use to go to Queensboro Plaza via 21st St. along with the Q19A? I recall seeing thus on an old bus map. Perhaps the Q19 was the original Queensboro Plaza 21st St. connection instead of the Q19A, in reverse of the present-day configuration? |
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| (344096) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Sun Dec 5 10:07:40 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 5 09:45:17 2021. Didn't the Q19 use to go to Queensboro Plaza via 21st St. along with the Q19A? I recall seeing thus on an old bus map. Perhaps the Q19 was the original Queensboro Plaza 21st St. connection instead of the Q19A, in reverse of the present-day configuration?Not from what I've read. The Q19 originally went from the Ditmars station via Ditmars and Astoria Blvds south past the Alburtis Avenue station then via Corona Avenue to Flushing (although this may have just been a franchise). By 1936 it ran from the ferry slip up 21st Street to Ditmars then via Astoria Blvd to 102nd Street - its longtime eastern terminal. Soon after the line ran just on Astoria Blvd from 21st to 102nd Streets which continued until it was extended to Flushing. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sun Dec 5 11:05:26 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Sun Dec 5 10:07:40 2021. There was a time in the 1960s when the Q19 ran down to QP, but only in the summertime! Never knew why. Perhaps because some 19A runs were eliminated in the summer? |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sun Dec 5 11:06:04 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 5 09:45:17 2021. Yes, see my other response |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Snilcher on Mon Dec 6 09:53:44 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Italianstallion on Sun Dec 5 11:05:26 2021. There was a time in the 1960s when the Q19 ran down to QP, but only in the summertime!Aha, that's what I remember seeing. So the Q19 originally didn't run on the portion of Astoria Blvd. between 21st St. and 82nd St (if that's where it came off Ditmars)? That happens to be the part of Astoria Blvd. that serves as the Grand Central Parkway service road. Was it moved to that part of Astoria Blvd. before or after the GCP was built? |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Mon Dec 6 11:24:57 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Snilcher on Mon Dec 6 09:53:44 2021. So the Q19 originally didn't run on the portion of Astoria Blvd. between 21st St. and 82nd St (if that's where it came off Ditmars)? That happens to be the part of Astoria Blvd. that serves as the Grand Central Parkway service road. Was it moved to that part of Astoria Blvd. before or after the GCP was built?After - Astoria Blvd was a mess with roadways being relocated during construction. |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Allen45 on Mon Dec 6 13:08:02 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Mon Dec 6 11:24:57 2021. There was also a Q105 franchise for Astoria Boulevard that Steinway once had. |
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| (344114) | |
Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Mon Dec 6 15:31:00 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by Allen45 on Mon Dec 6 13:08:02 2021. There was also a Q105 franchise for Astoria Boulevard that Steinway once had.Yes, that was intended to replace the Steinway Lines Flushing Avenue (Astoria Blvd) route between the ferry and 49th Street which ended in December 1935 because of disruption due to construction of the Triborough Bridge Approach (aka GCP). Steinway Lines was in receivership and the receiver (president of the Third Avenue Railway System) didn't apply for the franchise for that route. Steinway Lines was sold to its bondholders in August 1938 which, to get out from under debt, converted the remaining five routes to bus in the fall of 1939 which were then operated by the Steinway Omnibus Corp. Info mostly from MCA Motor Coach Age issue on Queens Surface, April-June 2007 |
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Dec 7 13:34:02 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by X-Astorian on Thu Dec 2 18:21:07 2021. This is a mid-1920s map from the July 1998 Motor Coach Age magazine. Assuming the map has accurate information:The Q19 runs on Ditmars Boulevard from the subway station to around 47th/48th/Hazen Streets, then runs on Astoria Boulevard until it hits 103rd Street. It turns south unto 103rd Street, passes the IRT station, and continues to Corona Avenue, which it follows east. I do not know where it ends. The Q19A runs from the ferry slip, then unto 21st Street (back then called Van Alst Avenue) and then Ditmars, where it ends around that Hazen Street area. 
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Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue |
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Posted by Snilcher on Tue Dec 7 22:50:00 2021, in response to Re: History of Q18 Thirtieth Avenue, posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Dec 7 13:34:02 2021. Fascinating map. Interesting that the Q24 ran straight down 69th Street (Fisk Avenue at the time) instead of turning off to 65th Place, and also that it went as far as the Grand & Flushing intersection at 61st St. |
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