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Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes

Posted by Allen45 on Wed Sep 4 11:58:35 2019

Does anyone here have any knowledge about the proposal made by Fifth Avenue Coach Lines to buy the M1,M3,M7,M11,M15 routes from the NYCTA in the 1950s and around 1960? I heard that there was a proposal regarding privatizing NYCTA bus routes and that there was meetings between Fifth Avenue Coach Lines and NYCTA which fell through. Anyone know the reason why the plan for Fifth Avenue Coach Lines to buy the Manhattan NYCTA routes fell through? Thanks in advance for your responses.

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(335742)

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Re: Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes

Posted by W.B. on Wed Sep 4 14:03:52 2019, in response to Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes, posted by Allen45 on Wed Sep 4 11:58:35 2019.

They had eyed those routes since the early 1950's (as early as 1952) when they were still known as the New York City Omnibus Corporation.

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(335752)

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Re: Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes

Posted by andy on Wed Sep 4 22:12:21 2019, in response to Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes, posted by Allen45 on Wed Sep 4 11:58:35 2019.

When NY State created NYC Transit Authority in 1953, the new agency was required to come up with a plan for divesting itself, by 1955, of the bus divisions in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Queens. Apparently Fifth Ave. Coach tried to buy, through its subsidiary NYC Omnibus, the M11 and M15 routes. Surface Transportation, not yet part of Fifth Ave. Coach (that would occur in December 1956) tried to acquire the crosstown M1, M3, and M7 routes. Not sure what happened to the negotiations.

The Queens private companies also tried to acquire the TA's Queens Division routes but also nothing became of that idea. As far as I know, the Brooklyn and Staten Island TA bus divisions did not attract any outside interest.

It's all ironic because as things turned out, the opposite happened - Fifth Ave./Surface went out of business in 1962 and MABSTOA was created to operate its routes. That's another, long story.

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Re: Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes

Posted by W.B. on Thu Sep 5 00:58:56 2019, in response to Re: Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes, posted by andy on Wed Sep 4 22:12:21 2019.

I saw online a NYCO annual report for the year ended Dec. 31, 1952, in which they detailed their intentions to acquire what was then the Board of Transportation's Manhattan Bus Division routes. So they took their initiative prior to the creation of the TA.

But yeah, the irony of subsequent events does loom large, doesn't it?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by R46 5636 on Thu Sep 5 02:05:02 2019, in response to Re: Fifth Avenue Coach Lines plan to buy NYCTA Manhattan routes, posted by andy on Wed Sep 4 22:12:21 2019.

With all the different private bus line companies named in this thread, the question came to me;

Just how many different private bus companies ran routes in the city? Is there a full list of all of them somewhere with all the routes they've served?

Curious to know!

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 11:09:34 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by R46 5636 on Thu Sep 5 02:05:02 2019.

Basically, originally all NYC bus routes were run by private bus companies.
Brooklyn bus routes were run by Brooklyn Bus Corp., a BMT subsidiary. Bronx and a few Manhattan bus routes were run by Surface Transportation, a TARS subsidiary.
Moat Manhattan routes were run by the Omnibus Corp., including Fith, Madison and Eighth Av Coach subsidiaries.
East Side , Comprehensive and Ave B & East Broadway operated a few Manhattan routes.
Staten Island Coach and Tompkins Bus Co. operated Staten Island routes.
North Shore Bus Co. operated most Queens routes. Also Green Bus Lines, Triboro Coach, Jamaica Buses, Queens & Steinway Transit, and previously Bee Bus Lines. operated Queens routes.
Eventually they all came under the MTA


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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 14:28:54 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 11:09:34 2019.

How come some of the Manhattan and Bronx ones had to be MaBSTOA, not melded into the rest of the TA like the others ?

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(335760)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 14:28:55 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 11:09:34 2019.

How come some of the Manhattan and Bronx ones had to be MaBSTOA, not melded into the rest of the TA like the others ?

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(335761)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by W.B. on Thu Sep 5 14:59:33 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 14:28:55 2019.

MaBSTOA was non-civil service, unlike the TA, and was set up to administer all the routes of Fifth Avenue Coach and Surface Transit. Notice 'ST' was part of the new entity's name.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 15:26:30 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by W.B. on Thu Sep 5 14:59:33 2019.

Was the purpose to be non-civil service ?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 5 20:06:24 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 15:26:30 2019.

In addition to what I mentioned in my post, yes. Even as early as the 1960s, the TA wanted to get out from under the civil service umbrella which the MTA partially did in the 1980s when it replaced a number of higher level supervisory and semi managerial civil service titles with purely exempt managerial titles.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 21:48:03 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 14:28:54 2019.

Primarily it due to union contractual issues. The same applies to the MTA Bus Company

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 21:52:47 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 5 20:06:24 2019.

By being non-civil service, the MTA can eliminate many of the legal protections and benefits of the workers

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by andy on Fri Sep 6 09:45:22 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 5 15:26:30 2019.

The purpose was also to expedite the restoration of bus service on the Fifth Ave. and Surface Transit routes. The TWU had legitimately gone on strike when the new Fifth Ave. management tried to lay off workers with high seniority. There was no bus service in The Bronx, and only the TA and Ave. B - E Broadway routes in Manhattan during that time (March 1 -22, 1962). So there was an urgent to get the buses back on the streets. Without civil service rules the drivers and mechanics could resume their old jobs. It was a win for TWU and the NYC government.

Chapter 16 of my 2015 book From a Nickel to a Token covers the 1962 creation of MABSTOA.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 6 10:56:29 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by andy on Fri Sep 6 09:45:22 2019.

In a few months, a Bus Almanac entry from yours truly will look at the death of the main man whose policies and actions precipitated that TWU strike that brought down FACL and ST and led to the creation of MaBSTOA.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by andy on Fri Sep 6 11:34:55 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 6 10:56:29 2019.

Harry Weinberg? Or maybe the infamous Roy Cohn, who was an official of the new (and ill-fated) FACO management in the winter of 1962.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 6 14:51:36 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by andy on Fri Sep 6 11:34:55 2019.

You got the first name right . . . the second, the less said, the better. ;-)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Q4 on Fri Sep 6 16:44:10 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by W.B. on Fri Sep 6 14:51:36 2019.

When NYCT took over Avenue B, did their employees go to MaBSTOA or NYCTA? What about the buses, were most of them immediately scrapped (most look pretty beat up from the pictures I've seen although they might have had some newer equipment that was in good shape.

Thanks

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 19:22:07 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Thu Sep 5 21:52:47 2019.

Exactly.

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(335788)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 19:27:12 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by andy on Fri Sep 6 09:45:22 2019.

Even with civil service rules, the former FACCO/STS employees could have gone to work. There was precedent for this when the city took over the IRT and BMT in 1940. Employees of the 2 privates were granted civil service status under legislation known as the Wicks Law.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Fri Sep 6 22:07:15 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Q4 on Fri Sep 6 16:44:10 2019.

Avenue B became part of MABSTOA. MABSTOA ran its own buses. No Avenue B buses were acquired. Avenue B junked its poorer buses and sold the better ones.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Fri Sep 6 22:18:26 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Fri Sep 6 22:07:15 2019.

To amend the previous post, MTA did acquire new Grumman 870's that were intended for Avenue B, but not yet delivered. When they did arrive MTA assigned them to NYCTA Staten Island. The buses were 96" wide with 2x2 seats.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Sep 8 06:41:28 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Fri Sep 6 22:07:15 2019.

MaBSTOA didn't keep any? That's interesting - I thought the Ave B's fishbowls were repainted in TA livery and continued to run, at least for a short while, on the M9. I remember the Ave B's fishbowls were always of a slightly different design than the TA's in the area, and the same design was used after the takeover.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 8 08:02:29 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by 3-9 on Sun Sep 8 06:41:28 2019.

What about the 35' GM Fishbowls Avenue B had - what happened to them ?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Sun Sep 8 10:41:17 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by 3-9 on Sun Sep 8 06:41:28 2019.

MTA did not acuire any of Avenue B buses. They remaninted the property of Avenue B. The newer better fishbowls were sold off to other companies. The older buses were scrapped.
MABSTOA immediately ran MANSTOA buses (mostly Flxibles) on Avenue B routes with paper windshield signs.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Sep 8 20:15:44 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 8 08:02:29 2019.

Don't know, I was otherwise pretty oblivious to the business end of the buses that ran in my neighborhood.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:41:48 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 19:22:07 2019.

Ah! So... Was there ever a point in which OA employees were wanting to go over to TA to gain the extra protections?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:45:56 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Fri Sep 6 22:18:26 2019.

Also with 8-cylinder engines and were numbered 551-563.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:50:24 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by 3-9 on Sun Sep 8 06:41:28 2019.

I think the only buses that passed from private ownership to MABSTOA were the ex-FACCO GMC 5301 (3101-3220).

With Ave B/E Bway... I just remember one day seeing the M9 and it was an OA buses from HUD depot.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Q4 on Tue Sep 10 14:00:34 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:45:56 2019.

Thanks for the responses.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Tue Sep 10 18:26:54 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Q4 on Tue Sep 10 14:00:34 2019.

You are welcome


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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 10 20:20:47 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:41:48 2019.

Of course, but they would have to take the regular city civil service Bus operator exam and start all over.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 10 20:22:51 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by WayneJay on Mon Sep 9 18:50:24 2019.

Didn't some of the FACCO/STS GMC TD5106s and Mack C49s also pass to MABSTOA?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Tue Sep 10 21:23:04 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 10 20:22:51 2019.

All the FACCO>STS buses went to MABSTOA, including pre war Yellow Coach buses. except the 25 1951 Mack C-50's.

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(335845)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by WayneJay on Wed Sep 11 13:13:23 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 10 20:20:47 2019.

Ah! I see.

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(335846)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by WayneJay on Wed Sep 11 13:15:20 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Tue Sep 10 21:23:04 2019.

Ah! Thanks for the correction.

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(335848)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Wed Sep 11 16:09:57 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by WayneJay on Wed Sep 11 13:15:20 2019.

My pleasure


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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Q4 on Wed Sep 11 16:33:43 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Tue Sep 10 21:23:04 2019.

What happened to the 25 1951 Mack C-50's?

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Thu Sep 12 07:00:18 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Q4 on Wed Sep 11 16:33:43 2019.

They were scrapped.

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by Q4 on Thu Sep 12 15:44:36 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by northshore on Thu Sep 12 07:00:18 2019.

Thanks

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(335863)

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Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC

Posted by northshore on Thu Sep 12 20:10:33 2019, in response to Re: Full list of all the private bus lines / companies that ran in NYC, posted by Q4 on Thu Sep 12 15:44:36 2019.

You're welcome! The Mack C-50's were a mechanical headache. NYCTA retired them early in 1960

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