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| Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol (299332) | |
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| (299675) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 10:02:23 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 9 09:45:55 2014. Easy to say. Prove it. |
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| (299688) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Nov 9 17:17:57 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 10:02:23 2014. Easy to prove too. Competent (actually incredible) traffic engineer is much more knowledgable than you. |
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| (299693) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 17:34:14 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Nov 9 17:17:57 2014. Says you. |
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| (299694) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 9 18:15:44 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 17:34:14 2014. Correct. I do. |
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| (299695) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 18:47:36 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 9 18:15:44 2014. And that means absolutely nothing. |
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| (299696) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 9 18:48:32 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 9 18:47:36 2014. Wrong. It means a lot, since I'm usually correct here. |
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| (299700) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 05:19:35 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Nov 9 17:17:57 2014. actually incredibleYou questioning my credibility, mailroom boy? |
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| (299701) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 05:41:55 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 8 23:09:59 2014. Just because you are a traffic engineer, I am supposed to believe you that traffic on Cooper woud not be backed up to Woodhaven with only one lane for through traffic and for left turns? The green on Cooper is no longer than 60 seconds. If one car has to make a left turn, he will hold up all traffic until the opposing traffic passes.No; because I'm a traffic engineer you're supposed to believe that I wouldn't consider reassigning traffic to Cooper without also considering changes in signal timing and lane assignments at Cooper and Metropolitan. I can almost guarantee that the green on Cooper is currently less than 60 seconds. What if two cars must make a left? How many cars will be able to get through that light? I don't know; what's the opposing through traffic? But wait! Just today I was on Woodhaven on Saturday morning. Hardly the peak. I counted 11southbound cars waiting to make a left onto Metropolitan. How many 55 foot tractor trailers? How many cycles would it take for 11 cars to make that left? Depends on the phasing, timing, and opposing traffic volume. And while they are waiting to make that left, with only one lane no cars would be able to proceed west on Cooper or Metropolitan. Then it doesn't have to be one lane. If trucks are rare, stripe it as two lanes with the lane being either shared or exclusively for left turns, and let the odd truck make a wide turn. If there are a handful of trucks, then stripe an exclusive left turn lane and a shared left turn/through/right turn lane to formalize trucks turning left from the right lane. If there are a lot of trucks, it probably isn't practical without changes to the local truck network. |
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| (299702) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Mon Nov 10 07:20:10 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 05:19:35 2014. MAYBE I AM |
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| (299703) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 07:33:47 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Mon Nov 10 07:20:10 2014. MAYBE I AMMaybe you're not |
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| (299704) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Nov 10 08:49:59 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 07:33:47 2014. Maybe you're notMaybe it's Maybelline. |
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| (299727) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Mon Nov 10 23:48:32 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Nov 10 08:49:59 2014. Is it live or is it Memorex? |
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| (299729) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 11 00:17:54 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 9 18:48:32 2014. In your own mind and no one else's. |
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| (299730) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 11 00:46:50 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Nov 10 05:41:55 2014. So your solution is to increase the green time for Cooper? Don't you also have to consider what that would do to traffic on Metropolitan? The point is you have to figure all these things out to make sure everything will work before you come to a conclusion that you want SBS on Woodhaven. You don't first decide you will put in SBS and say we will just work out the traffic problems later because you may not be able to work them out later.I have not seen anything about traffic volumes currently and what they would be after the proposed changes are made. That is the problem. Funny you ask about the opposing traffic because my friend and I tried it out today around 3 PM when there was little traffic. The detour took about two extra minutes. It woud no doubly be much longer during the rush hour. We waited about 15 seconds for traffic to clear (like about 10 cars) before we could make that left. No one was parked in the sixty feet closest to the corner, so through traffic was able to go around us while we were waiting. It would be quite a different situation if those legal parking spaces had been occupied. And if you remember our original discussion, I was saying that for this to work, parking would have to be banned near the corner and probably for the entire block during rush hours. You were the one who was insisting that the single lane on Cooper would work for through traffic as well as left turns. Even doing all that might still be enough for the rush hours because you are adding all the cars who currently turn east onto Metropolitan from Woodhaven south plus all the cars that turn that turn onto Metropolitan west onto Cooper westbound. So if 11 cars during non rush hours in the first category are forced onto Cooper west plus 11 cars in the second category, and the cycles are 30 seconds each, that's 22 additional cars per minute in addition to the current traffic. I would expect turning volumes as well as through traffic to be even greater for the peak hours. Where is DOT's traffic volumes and projections? Why haven't they been shared with the public to convince us that this is in fact doable. It would be released if they have nothing to hide. That would be community involvement. Not the sham that is being passed off as community participation. |
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| (299737) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Nov 11 06:25:48 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 11 00:46:50 2014. So your solution is to increase the green time for Cooper? Don't you also have to consider what that would do to traffic on Metropolitan?My solution is to first see if it's physically possible (it is), then to look at traffic volumes and see if it's operationally possible (unknown). "Increasing the green time" is not the only solution and is the most simplistic. The point is you have to figure all these things out to make sure everything will work before you come to a conclusion that you want SBS on Woodhaven. You don't first decide you will put in SBS and say we will just work out the traffic problems later because you may not be able to work them out later. SBS can work with or without prohibiting left turns at Woodhaven and Metropolitan. It just happens to be that left turns are prohibited on the current conceptual plan. If you're concerned, you should have gone to the meeting and made your voice heard, or at least asked for an explanation of how it's going to work. I have not seen anything about traffic volumes currently and what they would be after the proposed changes are made. That is the problem...Where is DOT's traffic volumes and projections? Why haven't they been shared with the public to convince us that this is in fact doable. It would be released if they have nothing to hide. That would be community involvement. Not the sham that is being passed off as community participation. I assume in the Congested Corridors report, which isn't online. I'd also like to see that information, but traffic volumes and level of service don't usually mean a lot to the general public. Funny you ask about the opposing traffic because my friend and I tried it out today around 3 PM when there was little traffic. Guess what time southbound traffic peaks on Woodhaven Boulevard! Slide 7 The detour took about two extra minutes. It woud no doubly be much longer during the rush hour. We waited about 15 seconds for traffic to clear (like about 10 cars) before we could make that left. No one was parked in the sixty feet closest to the corner, so through traffic was able to go around us while we were waiting. Then it would probably benefit from a protected left turn phase. Did you make the turn both ways using a stopwatch to verify that it was "about" two minutes? It would be quite a different situation if those legal parking spaces had been occupied. Someone's 15 seconds might have been ruined! :O And if you remember our original discussion, I was saying that for this to work, parking would have to be banned near the corner and probably for the entire block during rush hours. You were the one who was insisting that the single lane on Cooper would work for through traffic as well as left turns. No, I said it is a single lane in response to your claim that a truck would have to make an "illegal" left turn from the non-existent "right lane." Even doing all that might still be enough for the rush hours because you are adding all the cars who currently turn east onto Metropolitan from Woodhaven south plus all the cars that turn that turn onto Metropolitan west onto Cooper westbound. I must have missed where right turns from Woodhaven to Metropolitan were being prohibited, especially where the concepts show a right turn arrow on the pavement. So if 11 cars during non rush hours in the first category are forced onto Cooper west plus 11 cars in the second category, and the cycles are 30 seconds each, that's 22 additional cars per minute in addition to the current traffic. I would expect turning volumes as well as through traffic to be even greater for the peak hours. That's a lot of ifs. 1,320 vehicles turning per hour? That's about two thirds of the entire southbound peak hour traffic on Woodhaven. |
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| (299741) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Nov 11 08:30:40 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 11 00:17:54 2014. Nope, in truth. Please show a series of posts that demonstrates a clear pattern of me being wrong? Oh, you can't? That's because I'm usually right. You, OTOH, are usually wrong and many of us can attest to that, and we have the links to threads to prove it. |
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| (299742) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Nov 11 08:33:00 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Nov 11 06:25:48 2014. LOL |
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| (299749) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 11 10:23:07 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Nov 11 08:30:40 2014. WTF?You egotistical boar. So wrapped up in your bullshit,you are actually believing your self induced drama. Funny stuff..for real. |
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| (299753) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Nov 11 12:50:22 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 11 10:23:07 2014. Huh? What are you talking about? |
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Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 11 21:26:34 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Nov 11 12:50:22 2014. LOL...If Anyone has to explain to You,What makes You YOU.... Well..let's just say the hilarity runs far deeper than it appears. |
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| (299766) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Nov 11 22:34:31 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 11 21:26:34 2014. Explain what? |
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| (299772) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 02:19:34 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Nov 11 22:34:31 2014. What? |
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| (299775) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 07:17:28 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 02:19:34 2014. Exactly. I'm usually correct. BrooklynBus is usually wrong. THIW. |
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| (299779) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Wed Nov 12 11:49:09 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 07:17:28 2014. Haha. You usually INcorrect. |
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| (299781) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 12 12:45:58 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Nov 11 06:25:48 2014. SBS can work with or without prohibiting left turns at Woodhaven and Metropolitan. It just happens to be that left turns are prohibited on the current conceptual plan. If you're concerned, you should have gone to the meeting and made your voice heard, or at least asked for an explanation of how it's going to work.But if you do not prohibit left turns you either can't have three through travel lanes as DOT is insisting on, or you have to suspend the bus lane in that area. Suspending the bus lane is the best idea since you can't have one over the LIRR tracks anyway. The merge for buses will just occur before Cooper instead of after Metropolitan. I have been informed that others attending the meeting also expressed the same concerns about Metropolitan and Rockaway Blvd as I have. I assume in the Congested Corridors report, which isn't online. I'd also like to see that information, but traffic volumes and level of service don't usually mean a lot to the general public. If they have nothing to hide, why isn't it on line? Well, perhaps someone in the public is a traffic engineer like yourself who could educate the public and ask intelligent questions if those data were made public. This is just like the MTA presentation to the public on the B44 SBS. They insisted they had all this data from computer modeling but refused to divulge any specifics of what that data showed. They would only say it was favorable. Sounded very fishy. Just like what they are doing now with Woodhaven. If they are being honest, why in six months have none of the 20 or so questions posed by the Queens Public Transportation Committee, some requesting data, not been responded to? Guess what time southbound traffic peaks on Woodhaven Boulevard! Slide 7 So what are you trying to say? Since I was there at 3 PM, and the slide says the peak is from 3PM to 7PM, that I have seen the peak turning movements? If so, then you know absolutely nothing about travel on Woodhaven Boulevard. The peak isn't reached at 3PM and maintained at that level until 7 PM. Traffic volumes begin to increase at 3PM, reach their peak between about 5 to 6 PM and then decline until 7 PM, when they start rapidly falling. The number of cars traveling on Woodhaven at 6PM is much more than at 3 PM, perhaps as much as 50% higher. Then it would probably benefit from a protected left turn phase. Did you make the turn both ways using a stopwatch to verify that it was "about" two minutes? A protected turn lane as well as a parking ban in the right lane (which I initially said would be required and you didn't recognize the need for) would be required. You said that long trucks could make the left from the "non-existing right lane" although cars could be parked there. Without parking restrictions that turn for trucks may not even possible. No I did not use a stopwatch. What difference would it make if it was one minute and 45 seconds or two minutes and 15 seconds? The point is that it is about two minutes when traffic is far from its heaviest and when the left turn into Metropolitan is still allowed. Someone's 15 seconds might have been ruined! I didn't realize that being a traffic engineer entitles you to pull numbers out of thin air without even seeing Woodhaven in operation. If those half dozen cars were not passing me on the right while I was waiting for clearance to make my left turn, probably four of them would have missed the green signal and delayed them an additional 30 seconds until the next traffic cycle. If there were other cars wishing to make that left turn, they might have missed a second signal and been delayed by over a minute. I must have missed where right turns from Woodhaven to Metropolitan were being prohibited, especially where the concepts show a right turn arrow on the pavement. I never said right turns from Woodhaven to Metropolitan would be prohibited. What I said was that if left turns were prohibited from Woodhaven to Metropolitan from both the south and the north as is currently proposed, the following would occur. The 11 cars I saw lined up to make the left from Woodhaven northbound onto Metropolitan westbound, would now be required to turn at Cooper and would be going westbound at Cooper. The other 11 cars I saw waiting to make a left from Woodhaven southbound to Metropolitan eastbound, would also be funneled into Cooper westbound on the same block between Woodhaven and Metropolitan. That is 22 extra cars for each traffic cycle. Let's look at each turn separately and assume the cycle is 60 seconds for Woodhaven and 60 seconds for Metropolitan and 15 seconds for the protected left turn phase. Eleven cars make the turn. Then the following cars have to wait two more minutes for the next left turn phase. That means that in one hour, there are 7 cycles in 15 minutes or 28 cycles in one hour. So 28 times 11 equal 308 extra cars for each turning movement or 608 vehicles turning per hour, not 1,320 vehicles per hour. Now that is for 3PM, just at the beginning of the peak. If we also include current traffic on Cooper, (cars coming from Woodhaven south and from Yellowstone) we are probably talking about 1,000 vehicles per hour. If Woodhaven has peak hour traffic of 2,000 vehicles per hour in four lanes, that is about 500 cars per hour per lane. So Cooper could not possibly handle 1,000 vehicles in only one lane. At 5 PM we could expect traffic demand to increase by about 50 percent higher than it is at 3 PM. Cooper could not possibly handle that type of traffic volume without becoming hopelessly congested even with two lanes of traffic, one of which would become a left turn lane near Metropolitan. That brings me back to my original point that the turn to Cooper could add as much as ten minutes to someone's trip. (The same would also be true at Rockaway Blvd.) Let's say Cooper is given two-thirds of the green time at its intersection with Metropolitan because of the additional traffic put on it, wouldn't that back up traffic on Metropolitan? All these possibilities need to be worked out now before it is decided if left turns should be banned. It is irresponsible to first decide you will eliminate left turns, and then worry about the ramifications later and how to best deal with a bad situation when it is too late to redesign the SBS. Seeing how DOT eliminated the 88th Street alternative by failing to realize it was used as a bypass alternative and made congestion worse, and how they also eliminated another bypass route during times of heavy congestion (by eliminating southbound traffic on Redding Street near Conduit Blvd) they have little interest in reducing traffic congestion. They are more concerned about making traffic move slower. That's why I have little faith they will do the correct thing this time to keep traffic moving as a result of instituting SBS. |
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| (299784) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 13:46:50 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 07:17:28 2014. What?You're a privileged minded egotistical bore,with delusions of grandeur. The "act" you front off here does nothing to hide this. |
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| (299785) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 13:49:09 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Nov 12 11:49:09 2014. He's insane,more or less. |
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| (299786) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 12 14:11:45 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Nov 12 11:49:09 2014. LOL, proff? Please show a series of posts that demonstrates a clear pattern of me being wrong. I know you can't and won't. |
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| (299788) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 12 14:15:23 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 13:46:50 2014. What act? It's all 100% real, baby. And it's spectacular. |
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| (299789) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Wed Nov 12 15:15:14 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 12 14:11:45 2014. lol, delusional asshole at it again |
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| (299792) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 12 15:33:46 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Nov 12 12:45:58 2014. But if you do not prohibit left turns you either can't have three through travel lanes as DOT is insisting on, or you have to suspend the bus lane in that area.No, you just narrow the median to accommodate the left turn lane. It fits, but the policy in the conceptual design is not to allow left turns at SBS "stations." The merge for buses will just occur before Cooper instead of after Metropolitan. And the bus gets to block traffic a lane of traffic at the Metropolitan station. I have been informed that others attending the meeting also expressed the same concerns about Metropolitan and Rockaway Blvd as I have. Good; hopefully they will look at it and refine the concepts accordingly. If they have nothing to hide, why isn't it on line? Well, perhaps someone in the public is a traffic engineer like yourself who could educate the public and ask intelligent questions if those data were made public. Perhaps it isn't finalized yet. West 181st Street is public. So what are you trying to say? Since I was there at 3 PM, and the slide says the peak is from 3PM to 7PM, that I have seen the peak turning movements? If so, then you know absolutely nothing about travel on Woodhaven Boulevard. The peak isn't reached at 3PM and maintained at that level until 7 PM. Traffic volumes begin to increase at 3PM, reach their peak between about 5 to 6 PM and then decline until 7 PM, when they start rapidly falling. The number of cars traveling on Woodhaven at 6PM is much more than at 3 PM, perhaps as much as 50% higher. That's NYCDOT's traffic count, not mine. NYSDOT's 2010 count shows southbound traffic peaking between 5 and 6 p.m., but it's 16 percent higher than 3 p.m., not 50 percent. A protected turn lane as well as a parking ban in the right lane (which I initially said would be required and you didn't recognize the need for) would be required. You said that long trucks could make the left from the "non-existing right lane" although cars could be parked there. Without parking restrictions that turn for trucks may not even possible. Maybe I didn't specifically say it, but I assumed parking would be prohibited approaching the intersection. I thought that was obvious from overlaying a truck along the curb line. No I did not use a stopwatch. What difference would it make if it was one minute and 45 seconds or two minutes and 15 seconds? The point is that it is about two minutes when traffic is far from its heaviest and when the left turn into Metropolitan is still allowed. The difference would be 30 seconds (or three Levels of Service). The fact that you hyperbolically estimate changes in hourly traffic volume also lead me to believe you hyperbolically estimate changes in travel time. I didn't realize that being a traffic engineer entitles you to pull numbers out of thin air without even seeing Woodhaven in operation. I'm pulling nothing out of thin air. "About 15 seconds" was the time you said you waited to turn left from Cooper onto Metropolitan. If those half dozen cars were not passing me on the right while I was waiting for clearance to make my left turn, probably four of them would have missed the green signal and delayed them an additional 30 seconds until the next traffic cycle. If there were other cars wishing to make that left turn, they might have missed a second signal and been delayed by over a minute. Which is why such a change shouldn't happen without also looking at signal timing and lane assignments. I never said right turns from Woodhaven to Metropolitan would be prohibited. What I said was that if left turns were prohibited from Woodhaven to Metropolitan from both the south and the north as is currently proposed, the following would occur. I misread; I thought you said southbound Woodhaven to westbound Metropolitan would also be diverted to Cooper. Some northbound lefts from Woodhaven might also be diverted to Cooper (that seems to be the idea in the concept, anyway), but they could also use 73rd Avenue. The 11 cars I saw lined up to make the left from Woodhaven northbound onto Metropolitan westbound, would now be required to turn at Cooper and would be going westbound at Cooper. The other 11 cars I saw waiting to make a left from Woodhaven southbound to Metropolitan eastbound, would also be funneled into Cooper westbound on the same block between Woodhaven and Metropolitan. That is 22 extra cars for each traffic cycle. Let's look at each turn separately and assume the cycle is 60 seconds for Woodhaven and 60 seconds for Metropolitan and 15 seconds for the protected left turn phase. Eleven cars make the turn. Then the following cars have to wait two more minutes for the next left turn phase. That means that in one hour, there are 7 cycles in 15 minutes or 28 cycles in one hour. So 28 times 11 equal 308 extra cars for each turning movement or 608 vehicles turning per hour, not 1,320 vehicles per hour. That's a lot less than 22 cars per minute, which is 1,320 per hour, but it still relies on a lot of assumptions. Did you observe 11 cars arriving in each direction each cycle for the hour? Time the cycle? If 11 cars were waiting to turn when you arrived, are you sure they all arrived on a single cycle and there were none who didn't make it through on a previous cycle? No one turned left during the permitted phase? Any trucks? If we also include current traffic on Cooper, (cars coming from Woodhaven south and from Yellowstone) we are probably talking about 1,000 vehicles per hour. More possiblies and abouts. NYSDOT has a 2004 count on Cooper. The exact location isn't given, but westbound traffic peaks at 243 vehicles per hour. At 5 PM we could expect traffic demand to increase by about 50 percent higher than it is at 3 PM. Cooper could not possibly handle that type of traffic volume without becoming hopelessly congested even with two lanes of traffic, one of which would become a left turn lane near Metropolitan. That brings me back to my original point that the turn to Cooper could add as much as ten minutes to someone's trip. (The same would also be true at Rockaway Blvd.) It follows that your hyperbolic assumptions about traffic volumes would result in a hyperbolic increase in travel time. Your assumption is that you would be averaging less than 1 mile per hour along Cooper and Metropolitan. All these possibilities need to be worked out now before it is decided if left turns should be banned. It is irresponsible to first decide you will eliminate left turns, and then worry about the ramifications later and how to best deal with a bad situation when it is too late to redesign the SBS. Which is exactly what I've been saying. Nothing is "designed" right now; it's just lines on paper. First you look at concepts, then you see how/if the concepts work, then you design it. Woodhaven SBS is still at the looking at concepts stage. Seeing how DOT eliminated the 88th Street alternative by failing to realize it was used as a bypass alternative and made congestion worse, and how they also eliminated another bypass route during times of heavy congestion (by eliminating southbound traffic on Redding Street near Conduit Blvd) they have little interest in reducing traffic congestion. Eliminating the "88th Street alternative" eliminated a merge point that was a safety problem. It also took impatient cut-through traffic off of residential streets, which is a nice by-product. They are more concerned about making traffic move slower. Seems to me that they are more concerned with considering the fact that some people who aren't in cars also use streets. It's rapidly becoming standard practice around the country, so if it weren't the case in the one U.S. city where the majority of residents don't own a car there would be a serious problem. |
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| (299807) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 21:04:53 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 12 14:15:23 2014. I'm quite sure You believe that..but really.. do you truly keep it gully? |
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Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 22:39:31 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Edwards! on Wed Nov 12 21:04:53 2014. No, I know it. But I don't own a gully. |
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Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 22:40:11 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by Gold_12th on Wed Nov 12 15:15:14 2014. Knew you couldn't. Thanks for proving my point. |
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Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Nov 12 22:41:54 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 12 15:33:46 2014. I hope you're getting paid for this. |
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Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Nov 13 16:00:53 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 12 15:33:46 2014. No, you just narrow the median to accommodate the left turn lane. It fits, but the policy in the conceptual design is not to allow left turns at SBS "stations."If that were feasible, and I am not saying it isn't, why would you even consider banning such a high left turn movement and inconveniencing motorists by adding time to their trip? Even if you save a cycle and get more throughput along Metropolitan, you will just need added protected left turn signals at Cooper and Metropolitan and another at Cooper and Woodhaven that would delay Yellowstone traffic going south delaying traffic there so I do not see what you are gaining by banning left turns at Metropolitan. That's NYCDOT's traffic count, not mine. NYSDOT's 2010 count shows southbound traffic peaking between 5 and 6 p.m., but it's 16 percent higher than 3 p.m., not 50 percent. According to the traffic counts, the peak is between 5 and 6, not between 6 and 7. From my experience, the peak occurs after 6 PM, not before it. I measure the peak by demand, not by throughput. Cars travel much slower after 6PM than before it because of the increased traffic. Naturally fewer cars will pass a given point when they are traveling at 10 to 15 mph, than when they are doing 25 to 30 mph. If the demand is 16% greater at 5PM, than it is at 3 PM, I would say that it is much higher at around 6 or 6:30 PM. I'm pulling nothing out of thin air. "About 15 seconds" was the time you said you waited to turn left from Cooper onto Metropolitan. And you are assuming that everyone who had to wait for me to make that turn would still get through on the same cycle if they all had to wait behind me. A few would miss the green signal causing them to wait much longer than 15 seconds. That's a lot less than 22 cars per minute, which is 1,320 per hour, but it still relies on a lot of assumptions. Did you observe 11 cars arriving in each direction each cycle for the hour? Time the cycle? If 11 cars were waiting to turn when you arrived, are you sure they all arrived on a single cycle and there were none who didn't make it through on a previous cycle? No one turned left during the permitted phase? Any trucks? I did not wait to study the intersection because I was driving. Of course there may not be 11 cars turning at every cycle change. However, whenever I have passed that intersection, I have always observed heavy turning movements, and it makes no sense to ban turns where they are needed only for the purpose of inconveniencing people. More possiblies and abouts. NYSDOT has a 2004 count on Cooper. The exact location isn't given, but westbound traffic peaks at 243 vehicles per hour. I sure hope that DOT isn't planning using ten year old traffic counts. And please do not tell me that isn't a possibility. When I was at the Department of City Planning about 1980, all the politicians were in favor of creating "Queens Plaza's Marketplace" in Long Island City. I was asked to review the traffic studies to attest to the fact that that the development would not negatively impact traffic. I was handed ten year old traffic data to analyze. I refused to do it telling my boss that I couldn't conclude anything one way or the other with ten year old data. He just told me to keep quiet and not tell anyone the data was ten years old. So like a good boy I complied. Knowing what I know today how political decisions are made, and how data plays the least part in making those decisions, I would have told somebody what the city was doing. Those are the harsh realities. Data is not what is determining the need for SBS. It follows that your hyperbolic assumptions about traffic volumes would result in a hyperbolic increase in travel time. Your assumption is that you would be averaging less than 1 mile per hour along Cooper and Metropolitan. And what would you say if that turns out to be the case? A few weeks ago I was driving on Second Avenue on a Saturday afternoon toward the Queensboro Bridge. I was stuck for 45 minutes between 69th and 65th Streets due to traffic. That is much less than one mph. I finally was able to turn off at 65th Street and use another approach. Are you saying that speeds of 1 mph in this city are impossible? You will also find it interesting that I never passed a single bus all the way from 126 Street until 65 Street. Eliminating the "88th Street alternative" eliminated a merge point that was a safety problem. It also took impatient cut-through traffic off of residential streets, which is a nice by-product. Nice try but untrue. There was no merge point and hence no safety problem. If you don't believe me, just check the hybrid view for Google Maps which still shows the traffic patterns. A straight path from the service road to the right lane of the service road. No merge. Now I believe they striped off a lane to further reduce capacity and inconvenience motorists. DOT's goal is to create as much congestion as they possibly can. You say that the community has some input, and DOT will change their designs if necessary. I wish I could believe that. When I told them a year ago about how the bypass was being used, they told me they had no idea that cars were using 88 St as a bypass thereby relieving pressure at a choke point on Woodhaven, they told me they would take another look at the situation with that in mind. The result? They changed nothing and traffic on Woodhaven is worse than ever today. I am just glad I no longer use it one a daily basis. It will only become that much worse. It's just that the city will never admit it and will never provide the statistics needed to show what is really happening. |
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| (299875) | |
Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Nov 13 16:01:12 2014, in response to Re: ''World Class Bus Rapid Transit'' for Woodhaven Blvd... lol, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 12 15:33:46 2014. No, you just narrow the median to accommodate the left turn lane. It fits, but the policy in the conceptual design is not to allow left turns at SBS "stations."If that were feasible, and I am not saying it isn't, why would you even consider banning such a high left turn movement and inconveniencing motorists by adding time to their trip? Even if you save a cycle and get more throughput along Metropolitan, you will just need added protected left turn signals at Cooper and Metropolitan and another at Cooper and Woodhaven that would delay Yellowstone traffic going south delaying traffic there so I do not see what you are gaining by banning left turns at Metropolitan. That's NYCDOT's traffic count, not mine. NYSDOT's 2010 count shows southbound traffic peaking between 5 and 6 p.m., but it's 16 percent higher than 3 p.m., not 50 percent. According to the traffic counts, the peak is between 5 and 6, not between 6 and 7. From my experience, the peak occurs after 6 PM, not before it. I measure the peak by demand, not by throughput. Cars travel much slower after 6PM than before it because of the increased traffic. Naturally fewer cars will pass a given point when they are traveling at 10 to 15 mph, than when they are doing 25 to 30 mph. If the demand is 16% greater at 5PM, than it is at 3 PM, I would say that it is much higher at around 6 or 6:30 PM. I'm pulling nothing out of thin air. "About 15 seconds" was the time you said you waited to turn left from Cooper onto Metropolitan. And you are assuming that everyone who had to wait for me to make that turn would still get through on the same cycle if they all had to wait behind me. A few would miss the green signal causing them to wait much longer than 15 seconds. That's a lot less than 22 cars per minute, which is 1,320 per hour, but it still relies on a lot of assumptions. Did you observe 11 cars arriving in each direction each cycle for the hour? Time the cycle? If 11 cars were waiting to turn when you arrived, are you sure they all arrived on a single cycle and there were none who didn't make it through on a previous cycle? No one turned left during the permitted phase? Any trucks? I did not wait to study the intersection because I was driving. Of course there may not be 11 cars turning at every cycle change. However, whenever I have passed that intersection, I have always observed heavy turning movements, and it makes no sense to ban turns where they are needed only for the purpose of inconveniencing people. More possiblies and abouts. NYSDOT has a 2004 count on Cooper. The exact location isn't given, but westbound traffic peaks at 243 vehicles per hour. I sure hope that DOT isn't planning using ten year old traffic counts. And please do not tell me that isn't a possibility. When I was at the Department of City Planning about 1980, all the politicians were in favor of creating "Queens Plaza's Marketplace" in Long Island City. I was asked to review the traffic studies to attest to the fact that that the development would not negatively impact traffic. I was handed ten year old traffic data to analyze. I refused to do it telling my boss that I couldn't conclude anything one way or the other with ten year old data. He just told me to keep quiet and not tell anyone the data was ten years old. So like a good boy I complied. Knowing what I know today how political decisions are made, and how data plays the least part in making those decisions, I would have told somebody what the city was doing. Those are the harsh realities. Data is not what is determining the need for SBS. It follows that your hyperbolic assumptions about traffic volumes would result in a hyperbolic increase in travel time. Your assumption is that you would be averaging less than 1 mile per hour along Cooper and Metropolitan. And what would you say if that turns out to be the case? A few weeks ago I was driving on Second Avenue on a Saturday afternoon toward the Queensboro Bridge. I was stuck for 45 minutes between 69th and 65th Streets due to traffic. That is much less than one mph. I finally was able to turn off at 65th Street and use another approach. Are you saying that speeds of 1 mph in this city are impossible? You will also find it interesting that I never passed a single bus all the way from 126 Street until 65 Street. Eliminating the "88th Street alternative" eliminated a merge point that was a safety problem. It also took impatient cut-through traffic off of residential streets, which is a nice by-product. Nice try but untrue. There was no merge point and hence no safety problem. If you don't believe me, just check the hybrid view for Google Maps which still shows the traffic patterns. A straight path from the service road to the right lane of the service road. No merge. Now I believe they striped off a lane to further reduce capacity and inconvenience motorists. DOT's goal is to create as much congestion as they possibly can. You say that the community has some input, and DOT will change their designs if necessary. I wish I could believe that. When I told them a year ago about how the bypass was being used, they told me they had no idea that cars were using 88 St as a bypass thereby relieving pressure at a choke point on Woodhaven, they told me they would take another look at the situation with that in mind. The result? They changed nothing and traffic on Woodhaven is worse than ever today. I am just glad I no longer use it one a daily basis. It will only become that much worse. It's just that the city will never admit it and will never provide the statistics needed to show what is really happening. |
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