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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 20 15:11:59 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Feb 20 13:57:25 2012.

East of NY110 is also Suffolk, so not NICE's primary responsibility.

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(255958)

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 20 15:15:31 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Mon Feb 20 13:39:13 2012.

N2/8, not a good idea to kill Green Acres service on a Saturday, which is the only day transit-dependent Mon-Fri workers can go shopping.

I would think the Far Rockaway - Long Beach bus (N33 ?) would have been on a shitlist.

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(255959)

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Feb 20 15:33:43 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 20 15:15:31 2012.

They could reduce service to run every hour, but I don't think they'd eliminate it completely.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by BusMgr on Mon Feb 20 16:09:33 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.

If accurate, those changes sound like the result of thinking, not mindless slashing.

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(255963)

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by RailBus63 on Mon Feb 20 16:14:27 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Feb 20 13:58:24 2012.

It's possible they could redirect some of the buses being cut from other routes to the areas with greatest need. It would make sense since those buses would be far more productive from a cost-recovery standpoint.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 20 16:24:33 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by BusMgr on Mon Feb 20 16:09:33 2012.

In which case, Nassau County did the right thing, MTA was a poor steward, despite the pain to employees.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Feb 20 17:18:16 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.

I agree with some, disagree with others, and feel that Nassau County missed some others.

Agree (at least in part):
N2/N8, agree.

N16, sort of agree. But I would extend the N17 to Roosevelt Field to make it useful and eliminate the N16 short-turns. (The N17 would serve NCC.) The costs of the extension would be offset by reduced deadhead mileage if assigned to Mitchel Field.

N19---I can agree with that, but I wonder if service east of Sunrise
Mall should be reduced as well.

N24 - is this alternating trips to Hicksville to supplant the N78?

N48 - must not be that significant traffic to the Nassau County Jail.

N72 - overdue. To Babylon is overserved---Airport Plaza should be the end for most trips...and I would actually consider every 2 hours to Babylon on Saturdays, short-turning the other trips in Farmingdale.

Disagree:

N23/N27---disagree with this as the LIRR serves as a barrier between East Williston and Roslyn...I would have kept midday service but eliminate Saturday and/or Sunday service, as Roslyn Road is mostly residential and Willis Avenue is mostly commercial. But I would maintain an N23A and an N23B route---A trips to Mineola, and B trips to Hempstead via Roosevelt Field.

N21; I would have paid for that with reductions in N80 and N81 service, along with reduced N19 service east of Sunrise Mall. Are N20 short-turns being added ending in Roslyn?

I see Glen Cove as getting the short end of the stick, all in all.

Would have added in addition:
N25: Combine with the N58, and negotiate with Great Neck Plaza to have the stop located on Middle Neck Road, and combine the routes. Discontinue service beyond the Merchant Marine Academy.

N57: during the AM rush, interline with N20 short-turns ending in Great Neck. During the PM rush, there would be a piece that does the N57 for its first part and the N25 in Great Neck and Kings Point only for the second part.

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(255967)

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by ctrabs74 on Mon Feb 20 17:20:03 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Fri Feb 17 16:44:20 2012.

Different contracts: 310 and 316/LUCY are operated by a separate division of SEPTA's TWU 234 based at Germantown shops. Krap(f)s is a non-union shop. As to why there's a disparity between Germantown and CTD/Frontier, you're guess is as good as mine.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by ctrabs74 on Mon Feb 20 17:35:09 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by caine515 on Fri Feb 17 11:37:42 2012.

But, to play devil's advocate, you could have a smaller bus put into service from the start on the N73 and simply have the driver change buses at Hempstead. That is/was a fairly common practice at SEPTA's Red Arrow/Victory division: A driver comes in on a 104, goes on break, then a different driver takes that same bus out on his/her run (104/112/126 depending on how the run is cut).

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by FamousNYLover on Mon Feb 20 20:38:43 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.

I do not agree with N20/N21.

They're both most busy bus routes and they each others helps relief from Great Neck to Flushing when buses get crowded.

I do not agree with N19/N72 headway.
N72 should be current schedule during school days.


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N24 (Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April)

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Mon Feb 20 21:00:58 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.


[N24 - will be extended to Hicksville.]

Does that mean no more East Meadow service?

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N21 (Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April)

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Mon Feb 20 21:03:02 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.


[N21 will be rush hrs. only.]

My guess is that non-peak N21 trips will become N20 short trips to/from either Great Neck or Roslyn.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by BusMgr on Mon Feb 20 21:09:03 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.

While others have expressed contrary thoughts, I have never really seen much use for the n21 between Roslyn and Glen Cove. West of Roslyn it is well-used, but having it hooked up with what is essentially a minor corridor to a destination without substantial demand is a mis-match. Besides, there is another bus route to Glen Cove, and direct service to midtown on the LIRR.

The heavy corridor is Northern Blvd., and even though the n20 is not heavily used east of Roslyn, it does provide a through, regional, connecting route (unlike the n21). With some of the other hints, I think what may be forthcoming, this week and in the future, is some real thinking about how NICE provides routes that connect destinations, rather than routes that continue to trace 1950s franchises.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by PATHman on Mon Feb 20 21:26:02 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Mon Feb 20 01:00:26 2012.

None of the changes affect the few NICE routes that I take (N4,N6,N15,N22).

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Feb 20 21:35:17 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by BusMgr on Mon Feb 20 21:09:03 2012.

I'll agree with you on what you said about the Roslyn-Glen Cove section of the N21; unfortunately, its elimination will take away the most scenic route of the system.

As to the N20, it IS heavily used, on weekdays, between Roslyn and Hicksville, primarily by the students of the three colleges it serves, i.e., SUNY, CW Post and NY Tech. In the original franchises, there was only an N21. Later the N20 was added, but I can't recall at the moment whether that was before or after the MSBA takeover in 1973.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Feb 20 21:41:18 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Feb 20 21:35:17 2012.

The current N20 dates to 1982. IINM, before, it used to end at the Roslyn RR station, running via Mineola Avenue.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Feb 20 22:01:50 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Feb 20 21:41:18 2012.

Ok, thank you.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Feb 21 00:43:51 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by PATHman on Mon Feb 20 21:26:02 2012.

Yes they do.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Tue Feb 21 05:44:11 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Feb 20 21:35:17 2012.


[I'll agree with you on what you said about the Roslyn-Glen Cove section of the N21; unfortunately, its elimination will take away the most scenic route of the system.]

A scenic route for its own sake is a waste of money. The only thing that counts is bodies on the bus.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Tue Feb 21 05:44:11 2012.

More details have been put on the NICE site, but not linked yet!

N16
N23
N78/N79
N14
N27
N2/N8
N43

Changes match what is listed above, except that the N24 will run via Old Country Rd replacing the 78/79 which will be a shuttle.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:38:24 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012.

And videos:

http://nicebus.com/_meta/videos/index.html

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NICE changes posted

Posted by FDNY on Tue Feb 21 16:34:38 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:38:24 2012.

hi

can someone obtain a copy of the report and maps ---from the meeting for me

i will pay for postage..

I am using a friends computer right now.

i live in westchester county ---

much appre3ciated

thanks,,

steve
fdny

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Feb 21 17:31:03 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012.

You know how many times I wanted a quick easy way from the Hempstead Bus terminal to Corporate Drive? (N43 Extension) Excellent. The n35 Reroute that LIB did helped but it went through NCC first.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by JAzumah on Tue Feb 21 19:14:38 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012.

They should make the N2/N8 change, but they should keep the respective routes independent. That leads to less confusion. The only sharing should be at the edges. People do not read signs, NICE.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by R40SlantontheB on Tue Feb 21 20:51:48 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012.

All I can say is Glen Cove is really being screwed!!! I sure hope the N27 Roslyn-Glen Cove connects up with those N23's. Its gonna be more jammed up than ever!


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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Feb 21 22:43:39 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Feb 20 17:18:16 2012.

I think combining the N25 and N58 would make the line too long and too unreliable. If anything I could see N58 doing an extensions to mineola or HTC, but that's a long way off

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Feb 21 22:56:49 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by FamousNYLover on Mon Feb 20 20:38:43 2012.

Yuki, the N21 buses will likely become N20 short-turns

In any case, I didn't realize ridership was that light in Glen Cove on the N21.

And so much for extending it (or the N27) to Locust Valley or to the western part of Glen Cove.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Feb 21 23:01:16 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Tue Feb 21 14:34:56 2012.

Now that I see the N23 plan on a map, I like it more. At first I thought Willis Av was losing service to Roslyn Rd, but I see now that is not the case. I think its a decent change. With that though, I wonder if the N27 can be extended up Forest Av.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 09:21:55 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Feb 21 23:01:16 2012.

Well, they're public now...

Changes

Other service changes not mentioned in the PDF's/videos:

-No more N4 short turns
-N17 restoration
-More N25, N40, N41 service
-More early morning westbound N72 service.
-N4 peak headway now 10 min (originally 7.5)
-N6 peak headway now 10 min, Sat 12 min, additional evening service
-N14 time to meet trains
-N15 midday/Sat headway now 20 min (originally 15)
-N19 peak headway now 30-40min, midday/Sat hourly
-N20 peak headway 5-10 min, Saturday 20min
-N21 rush hours only
-N31/32 midday headway 20 min (originally 15)
-N45 rush hours only
-N48/49 midday hourly, Saturday 40min, no Sat N48 service
-N51 no Saturday service
-N55 to Amityville, midday hourly, Saturday 40min
-N62 rush hours only
-N70/71/72 Midday headway 20min, hourly to Babylon
-N74 midday service discontinued, N73/74 peak headway 40min

My thoughts:

-Lots of non-clockface headway schedules. Better hope that there's plenty of paper schedules available!!!
-Why aren't they touching the most expensive routes in the system? (N80/81)? What becomes of the extremely expensive N73 Saturday service? I smell some corruption.
-These minor headway reductions should be fine.
-Paratransit service can't be reduced, so there'll be extra paratransit service for eliminated route segments. How will that be communicated to customers?

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by mike nash on Wed Feb 22 11:33:36 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 09:21:55 2012.

i have a problem with the n6L repacement only serving 3 stops in li. what about all the other riders at the other ltd stopsand rider who don't go the queens. I think a 10min headway on the 6x is to much i would run a 20 on the 6x continue the 6L every 15 and create short trip somewhere on the island.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Feb 22 12:16:17 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 09:21:55 2012.

-Paratransit service can't be reduced, so there'll be extra paratransit service for eliminated route segments. How will that be communicated to customers?

Paratransit service can be eliminated when a fixed-route service is eliminated and there are no other fixed-route services within 3/4 of a mile of the route.



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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Charles G on Wed Feb 22 13:44:42 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by mike nash on Wed Feb 22 11:33:36 2012.

What you are seeing is the difference between MTA running a service and not wanting to cannibalize their LIRR ridership, and a competing entity running a service and looking to take people off those trains.

People in Hempstead who aren't traveling to Penn will have a choice between a 35 or less minute ride for $2.25 with free transfer to the subway, or a more expensive train ride with no free transfer that takes 30 minutes to Jamaica.

The guys and gals at Veolia may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 14:16:49 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Feb 22 12:16:17 2012.

You're right per ADA guidelines. But the contract says that the paratransit service area cannot be "adjusted downward" for 3 years.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Feb 22 15:09:51 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Charles G on Wed Feb 22 13:44:42 2012.

I never really considered the express service to be competing with the LIRR, but on at least some level it might just be doing so. Instead, I viewed this as likely being the result of Veolia looking at their deadheads and, then smartly opening them up to fare-paying passengers. Maybe someday there will be additional "express" services operating between places like, say, downtown Flushing and the Veolia garage!

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Re: N24 (Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April)

Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Feb 22 15:33:08 2012, in response to N24 (Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April), posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Mon Feb 20 21:00:58 2012.

No it doesn't. Alternating buses will serve East Meadow.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Feb 22 16:52:06 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Mr RT on Mon Feb 20 13:31:17 2012.

The express buses save time so they could theoretically squeeze in more runs with the same amount of buses or less. So they may save gas by less idling, and by adding additional runs with the same number of drivers.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by hound on Thu Feb 23 01:19:44 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Feb 20 21:35:17 2012.

The N20 to Hicksville was added in 1982. Before that the N20 was a Flushing-Roslyn RR route via Mineola Ave & Warner Ave.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Thu Feb 23 05:49:04 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by BusMgr on Wed Feb 22 15:09:51 2012.


[Maybe someday there will be additional "express" services operating between places like, say, downtown Flushing and the Veolia garage!]

The main garage is close enough to Roosevelt Field to make that concept highly plausible and potentially successful.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Thu Feb 23 05:50:21 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 09:21:55 2012.


[-Why aren't they touching the most expensive routes in the system? (N80/81)? What becomes of the extremely expensive N73 Saturday service? I smell some corruption.]

Or maybe there's a ton of interlining.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Mr RT on Thu Feb 23 06:52:51 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Charles G on Wed Feb 22 13:44:42 2012.

They should have taken the opportunity to charge Express bus rates !
Now they'll never get away with that :-(

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Feb 23 07:16:58 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Feb 21 22:56:49 2012.

It can still be done with the N27

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by RailBus63 on Thu Feb 23 08:52:02 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by Train2104 on Wed Feb 22 14:16:49 2012.

Didn't catch that - thanks.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Feb 23 09:18:28 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by hound on Thu Feb 23 01:19:44 2012.

Thank you hound.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by B49 Limited on Thu Feb 23 12:20:34 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by JAzumah on Tue Feb 21 19:14:38 2012.

I agree, to me right now what is the point of the N8, the way the route is set up, just make the whole n2/n8 just a loop N2.

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(256200)

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 23 14:29:07 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by B49 Limited on Thu Feb 23 12:20:34 2012.

Posted by JAzumah:
'They should make the N2/N8 change, but they should keep the respective routes independent. That leads to less confusion. The only sharing should be at the edges. People do not read signs, NICE.

Keeping them independent wouldn't allow through riding, which would be more convenient.

Posted by B49 Limited:
'I agree, to me right now what is the point of the N8, the way the route is set up, just make the whole n2/n8 just a loop N2.


Actually it will be less confusing to keep the two routes. This way you'll know exactly which way the bus is going. Each bus would only serve one side of the street, except for Meacham Ave. Under your suggestion All buses would say "N2 Tulip Ave via Green Acres" or something. With the two routes they'll just have to look for the route number.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by JAzumah on Thu Feb 23 16:16:02 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 23 14:29:07 2012.

Keeping them independent wouldn't allow through riding, which would be more convenient.

Sure they can through ride if they like. The N2s turn for N8s and vice versa.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 23 22:34:27 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by JAzumah on Thu Feb 23 16:16:02 2012.

I got more info. The route will run at 30 min headways.

So, Currently the N2 generally runs on hourly headways off peak, 30 mins peak. The N8 is hourly all times. The combined headway of the new route will now be 30 mins. Therefore, more service will be provided to both routes while technically running less service, because less buses will probably be needed. But now Meacham, Dutch Broadway, Hook Creek etc, will get 30 min headways all day. Depending on if you want to go the long way or not, or which segment of the route you're on.

If you want to go to Green Acres from Dutch Broadway, you could take the N1 or the N8. If you live closer to western Beef, you could simply walk to Fletcher to take the N2 , or the N8 if it's the next bus to come. It may increase ridership.



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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by hound on Thu Feb 23 23:04:29 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Feb 20 17:18:16 2012.

I'd like to know how the 23 s/b is going to transfer pass. at Willis & Hillside for the 22 when the bus stop is on the near corner & the 23 will be turning left on Hillside.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by JAzumah on Thu Feb 23 23:57:54 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 23 22:34:27 2012.

That would only make sense by putting an Able Ride platform there.

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Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Feb 24 08:45:31 2012, in response to Re: NICE Bus plans service cuts in April, posted by BusMgr on Wed Feb 22 15:09:51 2012.

I like that idea. Just beast down the LIE HOV lane to Glen Cove Rd

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