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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:07:58 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 11 11:28:51 2018.

That could have been done by extending in the direction away from the station houses.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:09:36 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 11 16:32:11 2018.

That would have been great, especially considering the Montague is under utilized.

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 11 20:18:49 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 11 17:31:33 2018.

Right, in 1995:

It was only because of protests the line remained.

Still think today the line and the existing Myrtle Avenue EL could be absorbed (with a rebuilt upper level at Myrtle-Broadway and rebuilding a relatively short stretch of the old Myrtle EL) into a Myrtle-Brighton Line that can be a "Black V" from Metropolitan Avenue to Coney Island with it and the (B) both being locals to Coney Island (in this scenario, (B) on weekdays and (V) as a 24/7 line) with the (Q) becoming a 24/7 express between Brighton Beach and 96th/2nd (late nights extended to Coney Island). Obviously, this would require a rebuild of the Franklin Shuttle back to two tracks and 600' stations.

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(1489438)

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 11 20:21:37 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:09:36 2018.

It is and that's why I thought of it.

As noted, today such would likely be the (W) from Metropolitan Avenue to Astoria and would help in allowing for de-interlining of the Broadway Line (as the (W) in this scenario could be 24/7 to Astoria).

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:30:57 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 11 20:18:49 2018.

If the El was there, it would definitely be a great part of the system, and would have been rebuilt and maintained. But there is no way a new El would be built anywhere and that's what it would be at this point

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 01:30:22 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:06:10 2018.

But why did they keep a whole block of it?

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Oct 12 05:54:09 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 01:30:22 2018.

Because of the upper level, the fare control mezzanine which is under Myrtle, not Broadway, and the tower upstairs.
It's not because of the Broadway El itself, but those other things.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 12 06:54:35 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 11 17:31:33 2018.

There were attempts to close the Franklin right into the 1990s.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Oct 12 07:42:43 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 12 06:54:35 2018.




There were attempts to close the Franklin right into the 1990s.


Fortunately there were two things working in the Franklin Shuttles favor. There was strong and organized community opposition to its closing. There was also a major hospital right next to the Park Place station. The Brooklyn guys will know more about this.


Larry, RedbirdR33


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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 08:24:35 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Oct 12 05:54:09 2018.

That still doesnít explain why the structure extends to Lewis Avenue, which is what I was asking.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 08:29:06 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Oct 12 07:42:43 2018.

That is not correct. By the time the shuttle was renovated, that hospital was abandoned.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Oct 12 09:29:23 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 08:24:35 2018.

The structure is needed especially for the structural integrity of the fare control area.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 11:18:00 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Oct 12 09:29:23 2018.

I doubt it.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Oct 12 12:36:21 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 11:18:00 2018.

The mezzanine is south of Broadway and just hangs there. Upstairs the tower used to be used.
The structure to Lewis Ave isn't needed for the Broadway El. It would only be needed for those structures

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 12:41:15 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Oct 12 12:36:21 2018.

The structure extends significantly rather than the mezzanine and other ancillary structures that need support. Why?

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 12:41:31 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 12:41:15 2018.

FARTHER not rather.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by LA Scott on Fri Oct 12 12:58:56 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 12:41:15 2018.

Purely my guess:
When the El was being demolished they did not want to take any chances with messing the rest of the structure, so they wrote the demolition contract to stop a block short.

In the decades since, it has been easy to slap a new coat of paint on it every now and then, so no need to spend the money doing anything with it.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:03:38 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 11 17:28:09 2018.

Interesting. The circa 1913 PSC report indicates that rather than being connected to the subway, the Myrtle was to be truncated at Flatbush Ext with a new terminal to be constructed there and an in system transfer built between the el terminal and the Myrtle Av (Gold St) subway station.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by LA Scott on Fri Oct 12 15:09:47 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 11 16:32:11 2018.

The Court station is pretty deep.
If Mytrle were to connect to Montague, it seems like the transition from El to tunnel would have had to be farther back, like one of the blocks where MetroTech is now.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:11:33 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 11 17:58:57 2018.

Not too long after unification the US got involved in WWII and both Myrtle and Lex were needed to get people to the Bkln Navy Yard.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:25:26 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:01:43 2018.

I have explained that ad nauseam. The unique trusswork of the Myrtle structure at the stations while similar, would not clear 10 ft wide cars without prohibitively expensive reconstruction while the structure along Fulton St did not have that problem, most likely due to that structure having a slightly higher elevation not needing the special trusswork to clear the stairways.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:28:54 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by LA Scott on Fri Oct 12 12:58:56 2018.

If I recall, the structure was retained for a similar reason that the 3 Av el in Manhattan between 34 and 42 was kept for a year. I believe that there is a substation in the area of Lewis Av that supplies power to the Bway Bkln El and the structure carries the cables.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:33:07 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by LA Scott on Fri Oct 12 15:09:47 2018.

Possibly. Another consideration would have been the presence of the IRT Clark St Line dual level station at Boro Hall unless the connection would have been built first.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by LA Scott on Fri Oct 12 15:50:26 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:28:54 2018.

That looks like it could be a the reason it was kept at the time, although the substation is no longer used.

Google street view shows groupings of electric conduits cut off on two columns outside of 1086 Myrtle, and ACRIS shows that the City of New York sold the lot in 1983.

Side note: the sales price in 1983 was $15,100.
In 2017, it sold for $4,500,000.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Oct 12 16:55:04 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:11:33 2018.

From what I have read, Randy, nothing was ever said about the Myrtle ave el being taken down, prior to and after Unification. I know the part about WWII access to the Navy St station for the shipyards. Also, they needed the Lex to supplement service on the remaining Fulton St el, from Atlantic Ave to Lefferts.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 12 17:57:13 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:01:43 2018.

The Fulton Street section and Broadway line prior to dual-contract rebuilding had to support LIRR MP41 trains. So maybe it was built to a higher engineering standard

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 12 18:00:26 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 11 20:30:57 2018.

It would have been interesting to see Metrotech built literally around the Bridge-Jay station and have the train run inside the building.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 12 18:28:47 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 08:29:06 2018.

Right:

That hospital as I remember was near the since-demolished Dean Street station that was not brought back in the shuttle rebuild.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 21:35:17 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 12 18:28:47 2018.

Park Place. The building is still there and is no apartments. It is on Prospect Place though.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 21:37:11 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:28:54 2018.

Makes sense, but why was the Third Avenue structure kept? With the el demolished, what was the substation for? The Flushing Line?

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Oct 13 08:09:49 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 11 11:25:54 2018.

By 1971-72 they would have had to rebuild the el and the polo grounds and Ebbets field would have a dome and be hosting football baseball and monster truck rallies.

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Re: OT: Sports

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Oct 13 10:30:11 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Oct 13 08:09:49 2018.

Actually, as I noted elsewhere on this:

Had the Dodgers remained in Brooklyn, what likely happens is:

The Dodgers play 1-2 seasons in the Polo Grounds while Ebbets Field undergoes a huge renovation that allows it to remain until the Dodgers build their dome at the Atlantic Yards, likely around 1972-'73 (Mets never come into existence, instead LA gets an NL expansion team at the same time the Houston Colt .45s/Astros come into the NL as the (original) Senators move to LA with O'Malley as owner, while the Griffiths get the Giants and move them to the Twin Cities and Stroneham gets the Dodgers and San Francisco gets an AL expansion team (likely the Seals are promoted from the Pacific Coast League)). Once the Dodgers go back to Brooklyn, the Polo Grounds likely gets rebuilt into a football-only stadium for the Titans of New York/Jets, with it being as modern as such a stadium could be for the early '60s (Shea never gets built).

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 13 15:57:10 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 21:37:11 2018.

Yes.

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Re: OT: Sports

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Oct 13 18:18:11 2018, in response to Re: OT: Sports, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Oct 13 10:30:11 2018.

Utterly preposterous

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Re: OT: Sports

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 13 19:36:20 2018, in response to Re: OT: Sports, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Oct 13 10:30:11 2018.

Wow! What an imagination. The fantasies you propose as possible reality re defines thinking out of the (batters) box, and I mean that as a compliment. A point by point rebuttal to your post would give me carpal tunnel.
However,my turn to speculate. IF the Dodgers stayed in Brooklyn and no NY Mets came to be, the dynamics of NYC baseball in general & the decline of energy & enthusiasm that prevailed in Brooklyn in the 60s in particular might not have happened or at least be lessened. Many millenials don't realize the bond Brooklynites had with their team. Brooklyn losing their beloved Dodgers was a serious wound. It took a generation to recover.

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Re: OT: Sports

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Oct 14 09:43:43 2018, in response to Re: OT: Sports, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Oct 13 19:36:20 2018.

It certainly did:

I do think you would have had a massive ripple effect.

The (original) Senators were originally the team that was looking to move because the Griffiths wanted out of Washington. Part of the deal that allowed the Senators to move to the Twin Cities was a new Senators team had to be in Washington (the team we now know as the Texas Rangers) and to do that, an additional team had to be brought in (which was the Los Angeles Angels/California/Anaheim/Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, who essentially were promoted from the Pacific Coast League). A similar deal likely would have been needed to bring the Senators to LA (with that team likely taking the Angels name) and if so, you likely would have seen the Seals essentially promoted from the PCL with the new Senators, likely resulting in the three-way swap of owners I described (also possibly with the team moving to Minneapolis becoming the Twins as the original Senators did and a new AL team in San Francisco taking the Giants name). The National League would not have stood pat and probably expanded with their own LA team plus the Colt .45s/Astros.

Football would also have had ripple effects from this as I noted.

And yes, things would have been radically different in my view.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 14 15:31:30 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 12 15:28:54 2018.

The replacement substation was built closer to Broadway.
Its practically right at the steps of the station itself.

The main entrance to the Myrtle ave stop is the original Myrtle Elevated station house..with the entry under the Bway El sealed up and stairwell removed.
However...work is being performed now to enhance the area restoring some elements and improving others.

The remains of the old El is kept Only for structural integration...however,with proper investment,it could be rehabed and used to eliminate One of the main issues preventing vast service improvements.


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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 14 17:46:07 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 14 15:31:30 2018.

I cant see what a structure above another has to do with a structure below it. I can see retention of the 3 Av el station at Gun Hill Rd since that structure is supporting the Wh Pl Rd Line but thatís about it. After service via the Bergen Av cutoff ceased in 1946, there was no longer ant need to retain that structure since the subway portion was below it so it was removed.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by VictorM on Sun Oct 14 20:30:13 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 14 15:31:30 2018.

That's right. The substation is on the north side of Myrtle Av a few feet west of Broadway:


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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by VictorM on Sun Oct 14 20:40:04 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by VictorM on Sun Oct 14 20:30:13 2018.

I should have said it's on the south side of Myrtle Av a few feet west of Broadway.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 15 06:51:22 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Oct 11 17:58:57 2018.

I'm sure it wasn't official mention. But the complete underinvestment in the line says a lot...

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 15 06:52:47 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Oct 12 12:36:21 2018.

Amazingly, it had tracks on it well into the 1990s- perhaps as late as '98!

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by Q4 on Mon Oct 15 08:47:53 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 12 18:00:26 2018.

That would have been cool

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Mon Oct 15 09:23:40 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 15 06:52:47 2018.

Yep! I remember that as well.

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 10:47:45 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Joe V on Fri Oct 12 18:00:26 2018.

I would assume Metrotech wouldn't have been built like it is if the el still ran through there. They probably could have rerouted the el for that block had it still been there. Or truncate the station north of the old Bridge Jay station, probably with an in system transfer passageway to the Jay St IND station.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by zac on Mon Oct 15 12:48:57 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 12 21:37:11 2018.

I took a few photos yesterday from underneath on Myrtle and could post them if I only knew how. This board is archaic. The old el structure still exists on the other side of Broadway too, connecting with the existing line. It all looks pretty rickety, especially since it goes up so high.


I also still have photos from my travels that I've wanted to post

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 15 13:44:08 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 10:47:45 2018.

Or rebuilt just the portion between Flatbush and Jay into a concrete, WMATA or Air Train type structure, and left the Myrtle pedestrian street just a little wider, so that it would all fit seamlessly together. Along with an enclosed transfer to the IND station, and eventually, the BMT station as well.

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Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Oct 15 13:44:43 2018, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 10:47:45 2018.

The terminal for the Myrtle Ave el was between Bridge and Jay Streets, across from the Metrotech complex. No re-routing would have been necessary.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Oct 15 14:43:40 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by zac on Mon Oct 15 12:48:57 2018.

The only way to post pix here is to have an account on a photo-hosting site. I don't - no need for one - so I can't post photos here either.

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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL

Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 15 16:35:31 2018, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 15 06:52:47 2018.

Thatís like the tracks I mentioned that were still on the short section of the Fulton St el structure at Fkln when I rode the Fkln Shuttle the first time circa 1959.

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