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| DOUBLE DECK CARS (1082056) | |
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| (1082059) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 08:53:13 2011, in response to DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 08:45:52 2011. Would it seem that way? Why?NJT's cars had to be custom-designed; there was nothing like them prior to their introduction. LIRR's C3s would have been useless for NJT with the high-platform-only doors and the rooflines that couldn't go through the North River Tunnels. One outstanding question is why LIRR didn't go with an already-proven single-level design as Metro-North did, that being the BBD cars based on the Pullman-Standard Comets. I have never heard of very many instances where any commuter rail agency "piggybacked" onto an order placed by a neighboring commuter agency. Railfans talk about this a lot, but it seems it's only done in rare instances, e.g. NJ Transit and AMT with the bilevels and ALP-45DPs (and they're anything but neighbors). |
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| (1082063) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jul 11 08:57:06 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 08:53:13 2011. Um.....MNR has the option of 'piggybacking' onto any car orders NJT does for WOH service, don't they? |
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| (1082065) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 09:01:46 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jul 11 08:57:06 2011. Um, that's a joint service with NJ Transit running it under contract. Quite different. |
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| (1082067) | |
Re: Double Deck Cars |
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Posted by njcl2308 on Mon Jul 11 09:06:23 2011, in response to DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 08:45:52 2011. Metro-North has no multilevel (double-deck) railcars. |
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| (1082070) | |
Re: Double Deck Cars |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:10:59 2011, in response to Re: Double Deck Cars, posted by njcl2308 on Mon Jul 11 09:06:23 2011. DON'T START TROUBLE AGAIN!.There is a difference between multi-level and bi-level. Since Metro-North has no low level platforms (IIRC) there would be no reason to have multi-level cars. |
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| (1082073) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:22:17 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 08:53:13 2011. So, could the LIRR have used the NJT design?Which design came first? I have seen the NJT cars in the Sunnyside yard area, and on the New Haven branch for "Foot ball trains". Could that design have served on the LIRR? Granted LIRR's C3s would not navigate the Hudson Tunnels. avid |
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| (1082075) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 09:24:20 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:22:17 2011. Which design came first?LIRR. I have seen the NJT cars in the Sunnyside yard area, and on the New Haven branch for "Foot ball trains". Could that design have served on the LIRR? Don't think LIRR wants to maintain "long doors". They converted every last station platform of theirs from low to high to accommodate the C3. |
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| (1082076) | |
Re: Double Deck Cars |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 09:26:12 2011, in response to Re: Double Deck Cars, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:10:59 2011. Since Metro-North has no low level platforms (IIRC) there would be no reason to have multi-level carsThey still have one or two in diesel territory, but that's it. If they suddenly had a Tappan Zee rail crossing and could run into Rockland and Orange Counties, certainly the traps would be useful there. |
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| (1082077) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:28:30 2011, in response to DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 08:45:52 2011. Sorry if I used the incorrect terminology.Please insert MULTI-LEVEL for DOUBLE OR BI. Some of you guys are like Lawyers or politicians! What do you mean by the word IS? avid |
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| (1082082) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:40:06 2011, in response to DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 08:45:52 2011. Okay!Could a wondering NJT Diesel run from Hunters Point to Speonk and back before the Authorities took it into custody on charges of felonious impersonation of a LIRR consist? avid |
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| (1082083) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:45:39 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:22:17 2011. The LIRR C-1s (prototype for the C-3)came first. There would be no need for the LIRR to go with the NJT design since all of the LIRR platforms are high level. |
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| (1082084) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:46:49 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:40:06 2011. Different cab signalling. I doubt that it could happen |
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| (1082085) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:48:27 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:28:30 2011. In most cases you'd be correct but there are real & significant mechanical differences between bi-level and multi-level cars. It's not nit-picking. |
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| (1082108) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:00:27 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:45:39 2011. They could simply leave out the traps and use the same design. Just like the LIRR and MNCR use the same MU design for third-rail MUs, with what appear to be mostly cosmetic differences. |
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| (1082112) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:10:29 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:48:27 2011. I would say both NJT and LIRR's cars are multi-level; they have one level where the doors, bathrooms, a few seats, and the accessible area are, and then a level that's slightly lower and another that is slightly higher where the majority of the passenger seats are.Bilevel cars are cars like Superliners and California cars where you enter the cars on one level where there are limited passenger areas, and the majority of the passenger areas are on the upper level. And then you have cars like Metra's gallery cars, which are neither. The ones I am familiar with have a lower, full-width seating area, and an upper area that is split; open in the middle, an an aisle on either side serving rows of single seats. |
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| (1082113) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:10:54 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 11 08:53:13 2011. VRE and MARC for multilevels. |
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| (1082115) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:15:32 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:10:54 2011. No, I'm wrong...but I swear MARC's MLV cars are the same as another agency's... |
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| (1082116) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:16:30 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:46:49 2011. But there's no reason I can think of that would prevent the NJT MLV cars from being used on MNCR or the LIRR. |
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| (1082117) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 11:26:14 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:10:29 2011. That's not how the manufacturers and designers differentiate. Bi-levels have predominantly upper and lower seating with a few seats on the mid-level where the doors are. "Multi-levels" are essentially the same BUT have doors for low level and high level platforms. |
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| (1082118) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 11:27:23 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:16:30 2011. Except that they would not be electrically compatible with LIRR DE or DM locomotives |
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| (1082119) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 11 11:27:55 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:10:29 2011. VRE gallery cab car V721; 2011 Metra gallery car; 2001 (clickable thumbnails)   |
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| (1082120) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:31:11 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 11:26:14 2011. So manufacturers define their terms based on how passengers board the train, while railfans (and most people, really) will define them based on the interior design. |
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| (1082121) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:00 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 11:27:23 2011. Why wouldn't they be? Aren't those things supposed to be standard across the nation? MU connection, HEP... |
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| (1082122) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:59 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 11 11:27:55 2011. Looks like my description... |
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| (1082123) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 11 11:35:57 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:00 2011. NOPE. The LIRR trains are beasts unto themselves.roar |
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| (1082124) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 11 11:37:04 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:16:30 2011. NJ MLV cars will not fit in GCT so their is no point in having them anywhere on MNRR. |
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| (1082125) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:38:23 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 11 11:37:04 2011. Well, that's obviously a reason I didn't think of. |
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| (1082126) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Jul 11 11:38:58 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:15:32 2011. No, you were correct. VRE sold their MARC style cars to MARC a few years ago. |
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| (1082127) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 11 11:51:37 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:59 2011. That's why I posted them, as illustration. |
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| (1082129) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train2104 on Mon Jul 11 12:10:46 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:00 2011. The LIRR uses nonstandard 36-pin MU jumpers instead of the regular 27-pin.I never knew the C3's couldn't fit into the North River Tunnels... |
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| (1082130) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 12:15:29 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:31:11 2011. When this issue came up on subchat, last year, I was fortunate enough to be able to talk to engineers from Kawasaki and Alstom. Based on what they told me and from what I gleaned from their websites, that is correct. Both are bi-levels bu the NJT cars are referred to as mulit-levels based on boarding capabilities. Heaven help us if the start boarding through roof hatches. |
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| (1082132) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:30:46 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:22:17 2011. The LIRR design dates to 1990, the NJT design is a good 15 years older. If the NJT design was around in 1990, we'd probably still have stations in the LIRR with low platforms. |
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| (1082133) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:31:16 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 09:22:17 2011. The LIRR design dates to 1990, the NJT design is a good 15 years NEWER. If the NJT design was around in 1990, we'd probably still have stations in the LIRR with low platforms. |
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| (1082134) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 11 12:34:50 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 11:26:14 2011. the description you give for bi-levels does not fit the Chicago area cars which were the first implementation in commuter service. There is no mid level seating. FWIW Metra's rider newsletter is On the Bi-Level.Both the original "Highliners" and the replacements as well as the cars for South Shore Line are primarily high platform but have traps for low platfporm use as well. |
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| (1082135) | |
Re: Double Deck Cars |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:34:53 2011, in response to Re: Double Deck Cars, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:10:59 2011. Metro North does have low platformed stations. Appalachian Trail, Breakneck Ridge, Manitou, Merrit-7 and all stops on the Waterbury Branch except for Waterbury itself. |
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| (1082136) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:38:03 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:00 2011. The LIRR uses some sort of custom electrical connector. It's incompatible with everyone else's. The C3's cannot run with anything but a DE/DM without being modified. |
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| (1082137) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 12:38:24 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by chuchubob on Mon Jul 11 11:51:37 2011. I didn't see any illustration...just words. :p |
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| (1082138) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 12:38:59 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 12:15:29 2011. 'Drop-ins' |
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| (1082139) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 12:39:55 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by R30A on Mon Jul 11 11:38:58 2011. But did they both order the same car design, or did Marc just pick up used cars? |
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| (1082140) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:43:03 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:45:39 2011. But the reason all the platforms are high level in LIRR land is because of the C3's. Many stations would not have been closed or modified had an NJT-style bilevel been adopted. Stations like Mattituck, Southold, Glen Street and Bellport could have been left as is, and stations like Quogue and Center Moriches could still be open. |
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| (1082141) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 11 12:45:27 2011, in response to DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jul 11 08:45:52 2011. I would really like to see Double Deckers on Metro-North, but I think the clearance of the Park Avenue tunnel is too low. |
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| (1082142) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:47:46 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 12:39:55 2011. MARC purchased about a dozen VRE Kawasaki bilevels about 3 years ago. They were supposed to replace the old ex-METRA cars, but ridership demands have forced MARC to keep them all in service. MARC is going to have to purchase new rolling stock in the near future. |
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| (1082146) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:53:36 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 11 12:45:27 2011. I have heard that current multilevels could operate to/from GCT only in the middle tunnel, not the two outer tunnels, without major structural modification (raising wire, moving infrastructure to gain clearance) etc. |
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| (1082150) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Jul 11 12:58:11 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:43:03 2011. Center Moriches shouldn't have ever closed. IMHO it should reopen, along with Bayport/Bluepoint. The stations are far to spread from Sayville-Speonk considering the population density. |
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| (1082154) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 13:02:32 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 11 12:45:27 2011. I would really like to see Double Deckers on Metro-North, but... ????????????????????????????????????? Metro-North Is Considering Double-Decker Trains |
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| (1082155) | |
Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 13:02:49 2011, in response to Re: Double-deck cars for NY Metro area commuter rail, posted by R30A on Mon Jul 11 12:58:11 2011. I agree totally. Center Moriches may have had a better rationale for remaining open than Bellport. There are more people living there. |
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| (1082157) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 13:03:31 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 11 12:38:03 2011. A fine example of MTA mistakes...or does this date to the PRR days? |
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| (1082164) | |
Re: Double Deck Cars |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jul 11 13:19:52 2011, in response to Re: Double Deck Cars, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 11 09:10:59 2011. One day last winter, NJT bi/multi-level coaches ran on the Port Jervis line.--Mark |
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| (1082166) | |
Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jul 11 13:23:07 2011, in response to Re: DOUBLE DECK CARS, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 11:32:00 2011. IINM, Metro North east of Hudson HEP is not compatible with west of Hudson HEP.--Mark |
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