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| (97998) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 06:38:42 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jun 12 10:17:46 2005. Well there ain't one on the property now. |
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| (97999) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 06:40:18 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by H.S.Relay on Fri Jun 10 06:55:23 2005. Well? Under the current architecture, how do BART trains communicate with the wayside? If BART is currently CBTC as you say, then this must happen. |
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| (98013) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Fytton on Mon Jun 13 08:19:31 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jun 12 13:40:02 2005. "At the airport and on London's Jubilee Extension, the trains must line up with the door openings, preferably plus or minus half a foot or less."Thee are other systems with platform doors - some stations in St Petersburg (the Russian one!), and some in Paris, in my memory. No doubt there are others. But no, I don't know how the accuracy of stopping is achieved. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (98023) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 09:22:54 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 06:40:18 2005. Well, normally in CBTC communication is made by either track circuit or dedicated fixed link. Radio is only a recent development of this communication system because it has less wayside equipment hence less maintenance cost. However, such introduction of RF Comm does have lots of problems. Radio Interference is the biggest problem of such system as seen in KCR West Rail in Hong Kong. Almost all delays (not that much really in world terms) are caused by radio detection failure. |
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| (98025) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 09:35:15 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Fri Jun 10 00:17:12 2005. Since we know that the RF is not dedicated in Siemens CBTC, so there is a hell of a trouble of radio interference. For examaple, HK KCR West Rail had several intances of signal failure due to interference. Though it is quite resistant to normal twitchings of Wi-Fi and TV signals, High Voltage AC power line seems to be to much to the system. In fact, the black spot of signal failure is the section just below a high tension AC power line near Kam Tin. KCR West Rail uses industrial railway voltage (25000V 50Hz) and Siemens tries very hard to make it compatible with its CBTC. Oh, didn't I say Siemens? Well, Siemens is the main sub-contractor of Alcatel Seltrac installtion in KCR West Rail, and KCR ended up paying more to prevent Siemens bail out from installing the network! There was even an inquiry on such matter in the Legislative Council! |
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| (98026) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 09:35:19 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 09:22:54 2005. But it gets WORSE ... with both VACUTRAK trains out of service, there's another issue that nobody's mentioned. STELL DUST ... "ferrite" accumulation on yon sacred antenna. Won't take long either, ESPECIALLY in today's humidity for that "load" to burn out RF amplifiers.And while steel dust has always been problematic with pretty much any type of equipment, it's even a more serious problem with RF amplifiers feeding into RF short circuits that used to be an antenna. *THAT* was what killed "Identra" because NYCTA didn't have enough spray bottles of Pledge (tm) to keep the stuff lit ... at least wayside inductive apparatus would NOT suffer similar effects from steel dust beyond MINOR attenuation ... if that SWR gets up high enough at Microwave frequencies, expect a party in someone's pants. :( For those who question my concept, put a plate of shaved rust into your microwave oven. Enjoy the show, thank you very much. Heh. So there, another day, another Unca Selkirk LUDDITE moment ... :) |
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| (98031) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 09:52:36 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 09:35:15 2005. The proposed CBTC for NYC is a "frequency hopper" which will tend to not be so deeply affected by various "carrier" noise. But WIDEBAND noise, particularly faulty insulators, is going to be "interesting." Even more so on "damp days." :) |
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| (98039) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:04:56 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 09:22:54 2005. Radio Interference is the biggest problem of such system as seen in KCR West Rail in Hong Kong.KCR West Rail uses Inductive Loop, as does the Ma On Shan Line. The Penny's Bay Line will use RF-CBTC (wi-fi), when it opens. |
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| (98044) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 10:28:17 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:04:56 2005. Inductive loop can be subjected to serious "common mode noise" if the input amplifiers aren't properly balanced for maximum CMRR. And I'm sure you'll "come after me" (heh) for my RF-based commentary, but a clean system is a happy system. There ARE ways to mitigate the problems, but they're labor intensive, and whoops! There goes your savings. :) |
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| (98053) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:40:52 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 10:28:17 2005. Inductive loop can be subjected to serious "common mode noise" if the input amplifiers aren't properly balanced for maximum CMRR.I'm not disputing that. This just isn't the technology that Canarsie is using. Inductive Loop hopes to combat RFI by having the transmitting and receiving antennas in close proximity. It does very little in the way of tailoring the signals to combat noise. IL's achilles' heel is a noisey ambient environment - such as can produced from nearby high voltage transmission lines. IL also has a fixed position, one cannot even change the polarization plane to effect significant noise reduction. Just a thought for those who have lamented the TA for not using "proven" IL instead of RF. |
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| (98055) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 10:45:30 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:40:52 2005. Well, just to continue in busting your chops for fun and giggles, the ONE benefit that "loop" enjoys is the ability to apply SERIOUS low pass filtering ... stuff that comes into RF and finds its way to the IF's (digital or not) is going to be dirtier merely by its presence at the antenna ... and yes, of COURSE I know about "DSP" ... but after years and years of doing it, I've come to realize that eventually - especially in "frequency hoppers" where the whole OBJECTIVE is to "look like noise," that random noise you might not have been expecting eventually catches up with the squelch, or more precisely the additive mixer ...Sorry for my comments - I was involved for several YEARS in the birth of "digital cable" ... and QAM was what I cut my teeth on. You'll see what the FCC finally gets its way and QAM16 is the norm for "broadcast." Ick. :( You can error-correct all you want, but when the noise floor comes up, hello "SEARCHING FOR SATELLITE SIGNAL" ... I'd HATE to see that in the subway. :( |
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| (98056) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:45:51 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 09:35:19 2005. steel dust ...*THAT* was what killed "Identra"I would have thought the problem had more to do with trying to find repalcemetn 1950's era vacuum tubes in the 1980's. Remember, the TA was running on empty by then. They could not affort to replace the guts with modern circuitry. |
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| (98058) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:59:48 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 10:45:30 2005. I was involved for several YEARS in the birth of "digital cable" ... and QAM was what I cut my teeth on.QAM isn't digital; it's an exalted form of amplitude modulation. It's error rate is inversly proportional to the bandwidth. At least the FM error rate is inversly proportional to the carrier frequency. |
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| (98060) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:01:12 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:45:51 2005. Heh. The Chinese STILL make 6J6's, even today ... Mueller never went out of business, they just restamp them. :)Nope ... like so many other "new tech" phenobulous in NYC's dirty holes, it was MAINTENANCE that screwed the pooch. :( |
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| (98064) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:11:13 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:59:48 2005. Ummm ... hate to say it bro ... but *ALL* RF is ANALOG ... even "digital" ... now some amplifiers may be "Class C" or "Class D" but when that stuff gets put into a coil or an antenna, rest assured that it's sinusoidal in the minimum degree. Sorry bro - I *did* this stuff for a living until the very LAST manufacturer got on a slow boat to Bombay. Even your most EXOTIC "digicomms" is ANALOG.Hell ... "Digital TV" was invented in 1926 ... take a look at the horizontal sync pulses (with or without equalizers in the VBI) of ANY TV system from them until "intercarrier" ... they claimed THAT was digital too. :) An RF amplifier designed to be matched at 25, 50, 75, 300 or other ohmage is going to SMOKE when it sees two ohms at the load. :) |
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| (98065) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 11:13:01 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:01:12 2005. The Chinese STILL make 6J6's, even today .It's not just the vacuum tubes; it's the entire sizing of the components that go with it. Have you tried to find an electrolytic with a greater than 25 WVDC recently? Chances are, if you can find it you cannot afford it. |
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| (98071) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 11:38:52 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:11:13 2005. hate to say it bro ... but *ALL* RF is ANALOG ... even "digital"That distinction gets fuzzy, when one is transmitting sychronous data and the bit rate is equal to the carrier. when that stuff gets put into a coil or an antenna, rest assured that it's sinusoidal in the minimum degree. Take any well shaped pulse train and put it through a low pass filter and you get instant sinusoids - vive Fourier. Take that received sinusoid and put it through a hard limiter and you are back to a pulse train. I think we are straying a bit too far from the subject matter. Your contention is that RF communications will not work in a NYCT environment. I think it will, based on its successful implementation in many other areas. However I would not have followed the TA's development path to prove it. |
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| (98073) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:57:52 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 11:13:01 2005. Heh. Got an old SONY ... and once again, Nichicon came to the rescue. Only downside is ya gotta wait for them to come from HONG KONG TRADING LTD, closest electronics store to NYC ... and ya gotta FORM them. But yeah, got a 4-section RECENTLY, 10/450, 30/350, 100/250 and 250/250. They can be had - cost me $4.00 for the part and $35 shipping. :) |
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| (98075) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 12:02:28 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 11:38:52 2005. Well DO understand, I'm only in this for the ball-busting as an engineer, with MEGAWATT training in "God never meant for pictures to fly through the air" but I *do* stand my ground SOLELY on the principle that all of my life, even today in software, all of the THEORY in the world is a wonderous thing, but in the REAL world, things can go sideways. THAT is what I always earned my check on - coming in AFTER the warrantee was over and resurrecting CHIT from the dead. :)But to say that all of this is "plug and play" and unlike WESTWORLD, "nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong" ... well ... there's "good enough for Microsoft" and there's "LIFE VITAL" ... they ARE different standards. If I found myself in the hospital hooked up to something that ran Windows, KILL ME NOW! :) But yes, in an ideal happy world, it's all good. Alas, I've SEEN what happens when slackers maintain COLLINS gear. :( |
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| (98077) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 12:10:40 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 11:38:52 2005. A very nice post on your part.Other posts have mentioned that Siemen's scheme for NYC has features like frequency-hopping, which would reduce the potential for interference. This would imply that at least one aspect of Siemen's approach is superior to other schemes. This would tend to contradict your conclusion. |
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| (98079) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 12:28:00 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 12:10:40 2005. Nah buddy ... "de rigeur" ... nothing special here, and frequency hopping has its own issues. Sure, interference on a SPECIFIC frequency isn't so much an issue, but frequency hopping requires a GENEROUS and FLAT bandpass filter, even though THAT is a lot easier too these days. But if you have BROADBAND noise such as an arc'ing insulator nearby, all bets are off. Ever hear a sizzling sound from a nearby third rail in humidity? That'd KNOCK IT OUT. That's "wideband noise" for ya. :)The ONLY thing "frequency hopping" was good for was the old Russkie jamming stations and typical 1960's "countermeasures" ... if you happened to hit a frequency that had a carrier on it, you'd DWELL there short enough to get most of the signal through. It's AMAZING how much "leakage" can screw with "frequency-agile" ... Lemme put it to you THIS way ... PASNY comes by here every so often and sprays chemicals on the bigass power towers that run through my property. BEFORE they do so, my SATELLITE goes byebye and we're talking 3920 MHZ ... WAY above NYCTA ... and even there, when the insulators are arcing, reception can REALLY suck. At *LOWER* frequencies, well ... STILL ... I'm *mainly* busting chops because of "techno-blind-faith" ... sure a vendor in a pinch will try to make the sale through "cob-jobs" but there are serious inherent flaws with RF links, especially when an interference source is WAYSIDE ... since the electronics are UNDERCAR, that's only CLOSER to that source than the power towers and my pizza pan which are separated by a few hundred feet. INCHES are different. :( |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 14:37:48 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 12:10:40 2005. Other posts have mentioned that Siemen's scheme for NYC has features like frequency-hopping, which would reduce the potential for interference. This would imply that at least one aspect of Siemen's approach is superior to other schemes. This would tend to contradict your conclusion.5. IEEE 802.11 Layers The IEEE 802.11 standard places specifications on the parameters of both the physical (PHY) and medium access control (MAC) layers of the network. The PHY layer, which actually handles the transmission of data between nodes, can use either direct sequence spread spectrum, frequency-hopping spread spectrum, or infrared (IR) pulse position modulation.... All the 802.11 CBTC implementations, in use or under construction, are using FHSS (frequency-hopping spread spectrum) and not the more common DSSS (direct sequence spread spectrum) flavor. The DSSS flavor is used for most wi-fi networks and is probably why the CBTC receivers/transmiters are $100 and not $10. So, a Palm Pilot cannot be programmed to hold the doors for you on the platform. |
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| (98287) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 17:28:13 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jun 11 07:28:18 2005. WHAT "propulsion system tachometer" ?????You mean the non-existant thing that goes in that open hole on the R-143 truck? |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 17:48:48 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 17:28:13 2005. WHAT "propulsion system tachometer"The R143 uses closed loop control for the 3-phase AC motors. The closed loop control varies phase and frequency to obtain the desired acceleration characteristics. One of the inputs to the closed loop controller is a tachometer input. Most such controllers also include an isolation amplifier so that the tachometer pulse train can be fed into other circuits or they use a PLL to convert the pulse train to an analog voltage. |
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| (98342) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 18:43:48 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 17:48:48 2005. Wheel slip. :) |
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| (98346) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jun 13 18:50:58 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 18:43:48 2005. Wheel slip. :)That happens alot on the LIRR! |
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| (98351) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 18:59:11 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 18:43:48 2005. Wheel slipWe've discussed this before - frequent recalibration. Remember our disucssion regarding ntp? |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 19:18:01 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Jun 13 18:50:58 2005. Happens on the subways too, especially in "leaf season" ... I know that I, like any OTHER motorman, have left crescents in the iron and flats on the wheels doing the best I could. Gears are nice - there's a meshing thing that happens with them that makes the cogs in the wheel go round and round. Railroads are a bit more ... well ... dynamic ... as far as "science goes" ... contact area of an 80 ton car is a little LESS than a dime on each wheel tread. Most of the time, they turn. Sometimes they don't. :) |
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| (98370) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 19:20:27 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 18:59:11 2005. Yep ... it's been ten hours after the thunderstorm ... my routers are still logging 0/0/1900 as I type ... no joke. :)Sorry once again, I'm MERELY doing this for a chuckle ... just my nature ... things aren't as set in stone as folks may like - I have a shrine to MURPHY ... he's been more accurate than ANY micrometer. (grin) |
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| (98482) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by 28481k on Mon Jun 13 21:51:10 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 10:04:56 2005. Hmmm... That explains the wire going along the track on KCR West Rail and KCR Ma On Shan Rail (as it is now called strangely, even though it's supposing a branch of the orginal KCR), so they are using Inductive Loop instead of real free-borne radio frequency attenna. Now, I will just say good luck for the NYCT project, it's sure is innovative. |
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| (98487) | |
B.A.R.T. |
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Posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 22:00:16 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by H.S.Relay on Mon Jun 13 06:40:18 2005. The question, regarding the CURRENT system architecture at BART, still stands. |
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| (98492) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:10:56 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 10:28:17 2005. Oooooh don't mess with the Juice...it's up to 750 VDC now. Current M7 modification is to antenna shield. It is two steel plates seperated by rubber hanging between the AT pick-ups and the traction motors, presumebly to isolate magnetic interference. Winter weather takes its toll of everything undercar and modification involves changing out brackets/hardware. I did two cars of the married typeand leadman went bananas when I may have switched shield...any movement of anything magnetic, including removal, may make a change. Checked out during test. We know these things, like doing color monitors not paying attention to the earths magnetic field. I'll stick with AT...R143s are RF and I wouldn't be surprised IF I keyed up with five watts on 440 Mc that trainline system 'kerchunked.' IF God wanted us to fly, we would all have motorised ParaSails. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:27:28 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 12:02:28 2005. Hey....don't mess with Collins! US Special Forces issued with KWM-2sin VietNam got a special coloring book....'How to turn the radio into one big oscillator when it doesn't work.' TMC made beeg stuff in competition with Collins and Continental long before I was there. RF IS ANALOGUE. PERIOD. DATA TRANSMISSION NO MATTER HOW DIGITAL IT IS AT ANY BAUD GOING OVER RF IS ANALOGUE. WHETHER ITS CW, FSK OR ANY OTHER MODE FROM 60 BAUD TO 60 MILLION BAUD, THE TRANSMITTED SIGNAL IS IN A ANALOGUE FORM WHETHER ON/OFF KEYING OR ANY MODE OF FREQUENCY SHIFT KEYING BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS AN AN ANALOGUE FORM OF AMPLITUDE OR FREQUENCY CHANGE. The true exception is digital on wire, cable or fibre optic...like 60 mA. TTY loops. Unca Kev: How'd I do with RTTY 101? CI peter ran Kleinschmidts and Mites along with Atlantic Research test sets. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:32:18 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 12:10:40 2005. I remember keying up fifty watts on two meters and seeing thetaximeter on the yeller cab climb to $200. Such a bargain! |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:37:25 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 13 11:11:13 2005. Digital TV was invented the day the Nipkow Scanner was syncronisedwith local AC power distribution. 1926 introduced live TV with sound by AT&T although it was electromech on shortwave. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:41:18 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 14:37:48 2005. But a 27 megahertz CB radio or better yet, 5 watt HT in UHF range just might swamp out the front end of receiver. Original CBTC concept used 2.3 gHz under Part 15 as a secondary user subject toany and all interference. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 22:58:05 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:41:18 2005. Original CBTC concept used 2.3 gHz under Part 15 as a secondary user subject to any and all interference.Which CBTC installation or trial was that? |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 23:11:00 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 22:58:05 2005. The original system was to have used 2.3/2.4 gHz transponders withSpringBok software. We're talking NYCTA 'L' R143 Kawasaki trainsets. SpringBok was dumped...7 million down the toilet. From 2.4 to inductive to now I see 900 mHz part 15 unlicensed operation. Dumb. Oh, I filed my protests with FCC and ARRL which remain on record. System should have gone strictly optical IR. Cheap and less interference prone than RF or inductive comm. I cannot supply the history of the project, just my interest as I was #12 on SM list. There is also 'team ATS' of NYCTA which remains a lock-out on the internet. Too many chefs...Siemenns system in Paris worked well since 1999 with one UNBRAKED WHEEL. CI peter |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 23:59:01 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:10:56 2005. 750 V DC was introduced to the LIRR in 1971. Conversion was complete by 1973. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 00:00:53 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 22:37:25 2005. The first TV broadcast refered to in most history books, made using the pinwheel technology, was Adolf Hitler giving a speech in 1936. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Tue Jun 14 00:02:47 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jun 13 23:59:01 2005. It's what I do now. No more 600 VDC |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Tue Jun 14 00:17:54 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 00:00:53 2005. Jenkins could be considered the 'father of subscription TV' as you had to buy one of his mechanical contraption radio/TVs to receive broadcasts from Secaucus. Bairde ran the British show till the late 1930s when BBC sucked into raster scannning. AT&T once had a websitewith tekky history stuff which showed the cable (not RF) connection with President Wilson (?) in 1926. Did you know there was once a service to get front page news on facsimile? Midwest Radio (or some name like that) was the largest manufacturers of television receivers....the Cathedral box contained a AM broadcast receiver for aural and a shortwave receiver with mechanism for visual. I'll have to try to dig up some links....we're too spoiled by 525 line service and 56 Kb internet. I've worked the DC loop...60 baud 60 mA. CI peter |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Tue Jun 14 03:11:25 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jun 12 08:01:54 2005. I interpreted your challenge of comparing the impact a zone controller failure in a CBTC systemwith a localized failure in a track circuit based system. And then you compared it to a widespread power failure. Sequitur? |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by H.S.Relay on Tue Jun 14 06:37:56 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 13 17:48:48 2005. If you're talking about a biphase shaft encoder on the axle, then it isn't there. If you're talking about an inductive probe sensing gear teeth back by the motor, then it's not there. There are provisions for future mounting of the above devices on the trucks. If you are talking about something else, then I dunno. |
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| (98619) | |
Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 14 08:14:56 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Mon Jun 13 23:11:00 2005. The original system was to have used 2.3/2.4 gHz transponders with SpringBok software. We're talking NYCTA 'L' R143 Kawasaki trainsets. SpringBok was dumped...May I assume you are referring to Kasten Chase Applied Research's Springboard Wireless RailPath system? That is the one that was used for the acceptance tests on the Brooklyn Line's express tracks. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 08:54:28 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by tracksionmotor on Tue Jun 14 00:17:54 2005. "Did you know there was once a service to get front page news on facsimile?"I vaguely remember reading something about that. "Jenkins could be considered the 'father of subscription TV' as you had to buy one of his mechanical contraption radio/TVs to receive broadcasts from Secaucus. Bairde ran the British show till the late 1930s when BBC sucked into raster scannning. AT&T once had a website with tekky history stuff which showed the cable (not RF) connection with President Wilson (?) in 1926" So you're saying thee broadcasts were actually via cable link, not over-the-air? |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 14 08:59:54 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jun 12 08:01:54 2005. I just came across the following:The agency plans to upgrade the entire network to CBTC, starting with the Canarsie L line in July. Between procuring funds and a work schedule restricted to nights and weekends, the upgrades could take 30 to 35 years, systemwide. CBTC "will greatly reduce the uncertainty by precisely locating the train," according to chief signal officer Nabil Ghaly. Optical lasers on the belly of each car will scan transponders positioned about 600 feet apart on the side of the tracks. The train will relay that information via data radios to the zone controllers, giving them a digital map of all trains in the area. Let me use another baseball metaphor, Casey Stengel supposedly asked his 1962 Mets: "can't anybody here play this game?" The maintenance cost savings projected for CBTC were predicated on a bare minimum of wayside equipment and the placement of that equipment within the stations. These optical transponders are simply substitutes for insulated joints. Their servicing will engender the same costs for transporting work crews to their location. Reading between the lines, I'd guess that they are not using dead reckoning to determine position. Position will be determined by block occupancy, just like a conventional block system. The quantization will be 600 foot intervals. The problem is that more accurate localization is required at certain locations for peak service levels. If the CBTC system is based on fixed block lengths of 600 feet, it will end up reducing line capacity over the present system. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 09:27:27 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 14 08:59:54 2005. Why do you post nonsense? There are other people on this board who post for its own sake - just to create threads consisting mostly of drivel. You are capable of better.The article describes the use of CBTC to replace the signal room equipment at Chambers Street. It turns a fire-related loss into an opportunity to deploy and test CBTC. The article says that that identification blocks will be created at Chsambers of 600' length. It does not say that this is what will be happening on the Canarsie Line. It sounds like the TA is using this opportunity to check CBTC equipment on a relatively small stretch of track (1/4 mile, which is going to be all of two "blocks") while keeping the overall procedure the same as the train leaves the little CBTC territory and renters fixed block territory. This will not hurt capacity, because trains are 600' in length and one caould always arrange "key-by" procedures anyway. Your past several posts have shown: 1) You have a good theoretical grasp of CBTC operation and its putative components, and how those components work together to provide operational capability which can replace fixed signaling. And you explain this clearly simply and logically. 2) You explained the difference between inductive loop and RF applicatuions very well, enough to help me (I am not an engineer) understand it. But: 2) You have no idea how or why siemens approach to NYC's problem is different (or what is being solved) in comparison to other similar instalations. 3) You have no idea how an R143 will interface with the CBTC on the Canarsie Line, though you're doing your best to wing it. 4) You criticize NYCTA for its management and implementation of CBTC without knowing exactly what's entailed. Italso begs the question: Let's see you do it. If we appointed you chief CBTC manager tomorrow, I'd expect NYCT's chief engineer to be helping you wipe the egg off your face. That might be your best and only achievement. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by Alex L. on Tue Jun 14 10:09:04 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 09:27:27 2005. 4) You criticize NYCTA for its management and implementation of CBTC without knowing exactly what's entailed.We ALL do this - just take anything that happens at Transit and substitute it for "CBTC" in the sentence above, and it will apply to someone on this board. Italso begs the question: Let's see you do it. If we appointed you chief CBTC manager tomorrow, I'd expect NYCT's chief engineer to be helping you wipe the egg off your face. As if you could do better? Hell, if you put someone who already holds the title "chief CBTC manager" at some transit facility with a working CBTC system, they'd be in the same predicament. |
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Re: Canarsie CBTC |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 14 10:24:39 2005, in response to Re: Canarsie CBTC, posted by Alex L. on Tue Jun 14 10:09:04 2005. "We ALL do this - just take anything that happens at Transit and substitute it for "CBTC" in the sentence above, and it will apply to someone on this board. "Stephen deserves special honors in this category. "As if you could do better?" I could not. I don't pretend to. "Hell, if you put someone who already holds the title "chief CBTC manager" at some transit facility with a working CBTC system, they'd be in the same predicament." That's where you go wrong. There are people out there who really do know what they are doing. That's not to say that every project goes perfectly. But they will get the job done, whereas the rock throwers on this board will be shown to be the first class arrogant idiots they really are. |
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