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| WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs (960116) | |
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| (960198) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Jul 25 17:45:48 2010, in response to WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 14:57:25 2010. The 7k cars will sill share those various components and systems between the A and B car, cabless C cars will be placed between the A and B car creating a A-C+C-B train set.Sounds like WMATA is stealing a page from NYCT by having four car unitized untis. And with operating cabs at farthest ends of the consist, that should make for more seating and standee capacity, sans cabs. Any idea how the seats will be arranged in the new 7XXX series cars ? Maybe bench like with out cross seating for increased standee room ? Bill Newkirk |
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| (960223) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Sun Jul 25 18:59:14 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Jul 25 17:45:48 2010. Here is a rendering of a WMATA 7000 car interior. |
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| (960245) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 20:45:29 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Jul 25 17:45:48 2010. Sounds like WMATA is stealing a page from NYCT by having four car unitized untis. And with operating cabs at farthest ends of the consist, that should make for more seating and standee capacity, sans cabs.Not sure how NYCT shares various components and systems across their train sets. The pairs in the sets will still be coupled together using a draw bar, the pairs will be coupled to each other with a coupler. This is to maintain computability with WMATA's shop lifts and hoists. Any idea how the seats will be arranged in the new 7XXX series cars ? Maybe bench like with out cross seating for increased standee room ? 2 options were being proposed:  WMATA 7k cars transverse seating. If you compare the transverse configuration of 7k cars to the 1k cars there are 6 fewer seats. There are 5 rows of transverse seats between the doors in the 7k cars whereas the 1k cars have 6 rows of transverse seats, the 2 other seat are longitudinal seats at the R end of the car next to the doors, the 7k cars have 2 there the 1k cars have 1. This is because the end doors on the 7k cars are roughly 24" closer to the center of the car compared to the 1k cars. (see profile graphic below)  WMATA 7k car longitudinal seating.  WMATA 7000 Series Kawasaki Built Stainless Steel Transit Car WMATA 1000 Series Rohr Built Aluminum Transit Car According to David Alpert's post at greatergreaterwashington.org the longitudinal option is not going to used. Mr. Alpert I believe has a seat Riders' Advisory Council. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (960266) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sun Jul 25 21:28:54 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 20:45:29 2010. I'm glad to hear they are staying with transverse seating. I never liked longitudinal seating. People spread out so much on longitudinal seats. You see less of that with two-person benches (at least I have). |
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| (960307) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 22:20:16 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 20:45:29 2010. I'm glad to hear they are staying with transverse seating. I never liked longitudinal seating. People spread out so much on longitudinal seats. You see less of that with two-person benches (at least I have).There are many that are absolutely convinced that longitudinal seating will solve most metrorail capacity problem. Others believe WMATA needs to build a new east west route across the urban core to separate the Orange from the Blue line. Never mind that fact that the signaling and train control system is not anywhere near being exploited to its full design specification. Today the advertised number of train pre hour during peak on the trunk parts of the system is 20, the design specification allows for 40. The two things that prevent WMATA from running 8 car trains 40 times per hour is rolling stock in sufficient numbers and substations that can put the required amount of kilowatts into the third to run all those trains. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (960548) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 26 17:28:27 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 25 20:45:29 2010. Now I am totally confused. If the 4 car set will be A-B+C-A, why is the B car shown with a cab ? |
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| (960560) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jul 26 18:16:22 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 26 17:28:27 2010. The B car, unlike the NYCT R-44s and 46s, is supposed to have a cab. |
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| (960566) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Widecab5 on Mon Jul 26 18:37:38 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 26 17:28:27 2010. In NYC, its two A's and 2 or 3 B's per 4- or 5-car set.(Though technically its A, A-Prime and B. That's another story.) In DC, it will be an A and a B sandwiching two C's on each 4-car set. Ergo, the cabs are in the A and B car but not in the C. I was in DC this weekend and it was discovered WMATA plans to use the 7000 series to replace the 1000, 2000 and 3000 series cars over several years. If all options are exercised there will be over 700 7000's delivered by late in this decade. And, BTW, WMATA does NOT plan to preserve any of its retired equipment in-house, though a few 1000's have already been reconfigured for work service. Regards, George Chiasson Jr. (Widecab5@aol.com) |
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| (960572) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 26 18:58:14 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Mon Jul 26 18:37:38 2010. So it will be A-C+C-B ?My guess is the Smithsonian will acquire a couple of 1000's, but I can't imagine many railfans losing sleep over their extinction. When it gets to that point, the 2K or 3K's will be the work cars. They'll probably rebuild the 5K and 6K's someday to make them compatible as well. Should a train composed of 7K and 4K cars get into a wreck, it would be like IRT mixing Hi-V's with the Splinter fleet. I think the varying amount of wood and steel in various cars made a BRT wreck more of a dissater than it should have been, maybe Malbone St, or something else. |
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| (960624) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by zuckie13 on Mon Jul 26 21:19:32 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Mon Jul 26 18:37:38 2010. I don't think they are planning anything to replace the 2000 and 3000's yet - not sure where you're getting that from. My understanding is that the full order would be 648 7000 series and upgrading the 100 4000 series cars.The 648 will: 1) Replace the 300 1000 series (you know, the 75' car with a 75' crush zone...) 2) Provide equipment for phase 1 on the new Dulles line 64 cars. Options for: 3) Dulles phase II another 64 cars 4) Two additional options of 130 and 90 cars respectively to increase the fleet size to allow more 8 car trains. |
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| (960626) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by zuckie13 on Mon Jul 26 21:24:15 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Jul 25 17:45:48 2010. Just out of sheer curiosity, where did you read this? I had been under the impression that they were going to be two car pairs with a full cab at one and, and a hostler stand (or some kind of control for yard moves) at the other. |
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Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Jul 26 23:12:01 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Mon Jul 26 18:37:38 2010. In DC, it will be an A and a B sandwiching two C's on each 4-car set. Ergo, the cabs are in the A and B car but not in the C.A-C+C-B The C cars will have hostler panel on F end to be used only for non revenue movements. I was in DC this weekend and it was discovered WMATA plans to use the 7000 series to replace the 1000, 2000 and 3000 series cars over several years. If all options are exercised there will be over 700 7000's delivered by late in this decade. Production options:
Sequence of production:
The only cars to be replaced by 7k cars are the 1k cars. The 2 and 3k cars received their mid life rehabilitation within the last 5 years. The original production sequence plan place the rehabilitation of the 4k cars during the manufacture 1k car replacements. Because that option at this time is unfunded along with the other unfunded options I have no idea when that will happen. My best guess is the second 64 cars for the Silver line will be built after the 1k car replacements as they are to be funded with money out the phase II Silver line budget. Being that all 300 of the 1k replacements will not be on WMATA property by the time phase II of the Silver line is opened expect to see 1k car still in revenue service when it opens. What will be rather cool is, the 1k car were delivered with a Dulles Airport destination sign on them, after more then 40 years most of those cars will get the opportunity to display that sign.  And, BTW, WMATA does NOT plan to preserve any of its retired equipment in-house, though a few 1000's have already been reconfigured for work service. Cars 1010, 1011, 1044 and 1045 are now 8000 - 8003 and are used for revenue collection. Car 1028 is the undamaged car from the Federal Trangle wreck of 01 13 1982 it is used for clearance checking. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Jul 26 23:36:57 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by zuckie13 on Mon Jul 26 21:24:15 2010. Just out of sheer curiosity, where did you read this? I had been under the impression that they were going to be two car pairs with a full cab at one and, and a hostler stand (or some kind of control for yard moves) at the other.I have a source that works in bowels of the Jackson Graham Building. He has been casually following the design process of the 7k car sense the inception of the program in 2006. I asked him a couple of weeks ago why the 7k cars can only be run in 4 or 8 car trains and not in 6 car trains. His answer was the car with no full width cab is in reality a C car with a hostler panel on the F end of the car. In other other words you can't couple the cabless car of a married pair of 7k cars to a 4 car set of 7k car because the a train regardless of length must have the same number of A and B cars. A 6 car train of 7k cars would be A-C+C-B+C-A or A-C+C-B+C-B won't work because of shared components and systems between the A and B cars. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (960652) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 26 23:44:17 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by DCmetrogreen on Sun Jul 25 18:59:14 2010. I really wish they had gone to an R-46 layout with 4 doors. That would help reduce dwell times. |
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| (960661) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Jul 27 01:24:27 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Mon Jul 26 18:37:38 2010. BART, here in the Bay Area, I believe does the SAME thing. |
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| (960700) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Jul 27 08:25:49 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Jul 27 01:24:27 2010. BART, here in the Bay Area, I believe does the SAME thing.The C cars on bart are A cars that can be coupled anywhere in a train. Bart does not operate with married pairs. Their A cars have the slant cab that can't be coupled to. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (960705) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Widecab5 on Tue Jul 27 08:58:16 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Jul 26 23:12:01 2010. Well that's certainly more complete than the sketchy answers received over the weekend, though the total quoted to me was 728 new cars by something like 2018, not 648.Another difference was the observation that a future overhaul for the 5000's and 6000's would require them to become compatible with the 7000's (as the 4000's are supposed to be if I understand correctly). This is apparently not an option for the 2000s and 3000s, and it remains questionable how long they will remain useful and/or cost effective once the 7000's do arrive and the "second generation fleet" of they mixed with the overhauled 4000s/5000s/6000s is formed by about 2020. That would leave the 2000s and 3000s as an "orphaned fleet" so to speak. In addition, there was a great deal of angst expressed about some of the previous WMATA General Manager's decisions regarding Metrorail and its new fleet. Specifically described were some amusing histrionics about seat configuration and materials, as well as the knowledge that Metro does not have sufficient power capacity to handle the 8-car trains to be created by the 7000's on a system wide basis without a massive upgrade. In the course of conversation it sounded like the previous management deliberately avoided addressing this issue. Lastly I have a question: where did you get those nice Metro car drawings posted yesterday? Regards, George Chiasson Jr. (Widecab5@aol.com) |
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| (960718) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Jul 27 10:39:34 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Tue Jul 27 08:58:16 2010. Well that's certainly more complete than the sketchy answers received over the weekend, though the total quoted to me was 728 new cars by something like 2018, not 648.The 748 figure come from adding the rehabilitation of the 100 4k cars to the 648 new 7k cars figure. Another difference was the observation that a future overhaul for the 5000's and 6000's would require them to become compatible with the 7000's (as the 4000's are supposed to be if I understand correctly). This is apparently not an option for the 2000s and 3000s, and it remains questionable how long they will remain useful and/or cost effective once the 7000's do arrive and the "second generation fleet" of they mixed with the overhauled 4000s/5000s/6000s is formed by about 2020. That would leave the 2000s and 3000s as an "orphaned fleet" so to speak. The 2 and 3k cars have had their mid life rehabilitation, Other then overhauling various individual components and system over the up coming years they will likely be retired from service when the reach the end of their useful life. Its a little to early to be speculating as to what will happen when the 5 and 6k cars reach the point when a mid life rehabilitation need to be done In addition, there was a great deal of angst expressed about some of the previous WMATA General Manager's decisions regarding Metrorail and its new fleet. Specifically described were some amusing histrionics about seat configuration and materials, as well as the knowledge that Metro does not have sufficient power capacity to handle the 8-car trains to be created by the 7000's on a system wide basis without a massive upgrade. In the course of conversation it sounded like the previous management deliberately avoided addressing this issue. WMATA went to off the shelf interior furnishing to reduce both up front and maintenance costs. Floor coverings were change to reduce maintenance costs. WMATA began a power upgrade program back in the late 1990s. last I heard it was about one third complete. Lastly I have a question: where did you get those nice Metro car drawings posted yesterday? The profile graph is my work. The 7k drawing I did a several months ago, the 1k drawing I did about 15 years ago. The interior seating configuration drawing was ripped from the 7000 Series Railcar Program Contract Award (1.65 MB PDF file). The same document also has numbers in the table form my previous post John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (960733) | |
Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by SchuminWeb on Tue Jul 27 11:53:14 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by zuckie13 on Mon Jul 26 21:19:32 2010. The 2000 and 3000-Series cars are slated to be replaced by an 8000-Series, but that's about all that there is on them at this point, since that's still a good ways off, as the 2000 and 3000-Series still have at least 15 years left on them. |
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Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs |
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Posted by SchuminWeb on Tue Jul 27 11:59:16 2010, in response to Re: WMATA: 7k cars are not composed of 2 married pairs, posted by Widecab5 on Tue Jul 27 08:58:16 2010. This is apparently not an option for the 2000s and 3000s, and it remains questionable how long they will remain useful and/or cost effective once the 7000's do arrive and the "second generation fleet" of they mixed with the overhauled 4000s/5000s/6000s is formed by about 2020. That would leave the 2000s and 3000s as an "orphaned fleet" so to speak.I think there's enough of them (364 at time of rehab) to make this not be a huge problem even if they did become the only cars running with the "old" technology. However, I believe they'll have the Alstoms to run with for just about their entire remaining useful life, as the 6000-Series first arrived in 2006 - thus a rehab at roughly 2026, about the time when the 3000's would reach the magic age of 40, when railcars generally get retired. |
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