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| (952189) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by SchuminWeb on Sat Jul 3 13:49:43 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. So have I. I have taken plenty of pictures and lots of videos posted to YouTube.HOWEVER... that does not mean that the system is perfect nor beyond criticism. Your belief that Metro excretes rainbows is misguided. I, on the other hand, love Metro as well, but have lots of opinions on what Metro could do to improve service, and which politicians need to go. After all, I not only occasionally railfan, but I also take the Metro to and from work from Glenmont station every day to Dupont Circle. It costs a lot, and I have to deal with that infernal Silver Spring turnback, which means that for the premium price that I pay, I only get half the service to my station. |
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| (952259) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Sat Jul 3 17:16:32 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by SchuminWeb on Sat Jul 3 13:49:43 2010. Your belief that Metro excretes rainbows is misguidedincorrect |
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| (952290) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 3 20:09:00 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 2 14:39:37 2010. you might be correct. It was the period when the "express only" stupidity infected plans for the SAS. Mostly, I am unconvinced that Schrag is "perfect" and having lived long enough to see so called "settled" issues shown to be false, I am not willing to dismiss race and class as issues. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (952311) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sat Jul 3 21:07:33 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 11:58:23 2010. every Metrobus that was up for elimination or restructuring was savedWow how did they manage to do that?! |
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| (952320) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 3 21:49:39 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by SchuminWeb on Sat Jul 3 13:49:43 2010. Regardless of what you pay, ridership statistics indicate that Glenmont (and the other stations north of Silver Spring) do not warrant 3 minute headways during rush hour when compared to other parts of the system. You could have every train go to Glenmont, but that wouldn't improve the headway because there aren't enough cars to operate service at the 3 minute frequency over the length of the line. The Shady Grove side gets more ridership and is next in line to get expanded service, when the cars and money are available. If you consider the full length and short turn Red Line services to be different lines (and they are internally in some ways), you are getting no less service at Glenmont than you are at any other end of the line station on the other 4 lines, if not better service (5 minute headway versus 6). Vienna to Dupont Circle costs more than from Glenmont. Arguably, you are possibly even getting better service, especially in the mornings, because passengers at the closer in stations let your trains pass by and use the less crowded trains from Silver Spring, reducing the chances your train will be offloaded due to overcrowding.Also, your claim that it costs Metro the same amount to transport you from Glenmont as it would cost someone to go from, say, Brookland, is false. If you got off the train at Silver Spring instead of DuPont Circle, then WMATA could use your space to carry someone else. You use more service, cause more wear and tear on the equipment, etc., and therefore, it isn't less expensive to take you. WMATA is trying to get a better advertising deal and sell new advertising spots in the system, but in this economy, who is going to spend money on advertising? |
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| (952321) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 3 21:54:25 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sat Jul 3 21:07:33 2010. By raising fares as much as they did. I think a few really low performing routes still might get restructured, including the whole R2/R3/F6 proposal (which was one of my least favorite ideas in the whole docket). |
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| (952405) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Jul 4 12:16:13 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 3 21:54:25 2010. Metrobus has to put an end to two somewhat intertwined issues: Running long routes that trace the long-extinct streetcar routes (many of which had insufficient ridership before the system closed) and the screaming of racism any time an attempt is made to discontinue routes to areas that plainly lack the minimum ridership to be viable.There just are too many long crosstown routes. While there certainly are some efficiencies in running routes such as the D6, in practice they are completely lost because of what happens when those buses inescapably get stuck in the downtown core or an interval is abandoned. At least during peak times, they should either be split in half, or additional short-run service added from the core to the ends. As for the racism crap, rather than rolling over to appease Metro should stand up with hard farebox numbers and make it clear that if service is demanded, more people must ride. Period. This "racial sensitivity" bullshit is just that. If there is such concern about it, stop perpetuating the bullshit about blacks or other groups being poor and needing public transit when they simply aren't riding on public wheels. Get the people who live in the so-called "ignored" areas out of their $40K SUVs and imports and onto the buses and subway. |
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| (952407) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Jul 4 12:34:53 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Jul 4 12:16:13 2010. Damn. Hit post instead of preview. Anyway...What I was going to continue with is, we certainly don't want areas cut off from service but the reality has to be accepted that two or three elderly women who rode the streetcar when it was there and only need the bus two times a week is not justification for running an underutilized service along one street, when a few blocks over there are a lot more people who would benefit from service but are told the existing service will have to do. The old "streetcar" routes need to be largely abolished, or at least redesigned to account for the present day's population distribution and usage patterns. There are a lot of people who go downtown or want to connect with the subway. There are also a lot of people who aren't traveling downtown, but rather short distances or a "crosstown" destination that doesn't transit the core. Simply consolidating under-performing routes into a long route screws up service all along the line if something goes awry. The end result is people will avoid taking the bus because of it being unreliable or too slow getting them where they want to go. That means more people who can will take the subway, or use an automobile. |
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| (952672) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 4 23:38:36 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Jul 4 12:16:13 2010. So what is your opinion on the even 30s revamp from a few years ago? I find the routes to still be unreliable because the 32 and 36 still run all the way across the city, and they were kept due to the concerns of riders who rode the full route and didn't want to have to transfer at Archives or Federal Triangle to continue their trips. Also, they now have a ton of D6 short turns during rush hour, so many trips aren't doing the full route, to improve reliability. Might as well cut the route in half but... |
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| (952680) | |
More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:14:57 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 3 21:49:39 2010. OK, I did some analysis on Red Line ridership using the data on the WMATA site. All of the numbers referenced in this post are average weekday boardings from May 2009.Here are the totals for each Red Line station ranked in order from most boardings to fewest: Station Name Ridership Union Station 34465 Metro Center 30569 Gallery Place 25747 Farragut North 25311 Dupont Circle 23561 Shady Grove 14107 Silver Spring 14077 Bethesda 10730 Judiciary Square 10369 Friendship Heights 9596 Woodley Park 8292 Tenleytown 7290 Van Ness 7276 Fort Totten 7198 Brookland 7158 Takoma 6811 Rhode Island Avenue 6121 Glenmont 5996 Grosvenor 5948 Medical Center 5627 New York Avenue 5229 Rockville 4880 Cleveland Park 4807 Wheaton 4653 Twinbrook 4628 White Flint 4096 Forest Glen 2514 TOTAL 297056 For the purpose of this analysis, I've defined "downtown" as being the stations from New York Avenue through Dupont Circle inclusive. These 7 stations account for 52.26% of the daily weekday boardings on the Red Line. The busiest station outside of downtown is Shady Grove, the 6th busiest on the line out of the 27 stations. With 30 fewer boardings than Shady Grove, Silver Spring is ranked 7th. Glenmont is ranked 18th, Wheaton is ranked 24th, and Forest Glen has the fewest boardings out of any station on the entire line. For comparison purposes, Twinbrook and White Flint rank 25th and 26th, and Rockville is 22nd. The Glenmont to Forest Glen section of the line inclusive accounts for 4.43% of station boardings. Shady Grove to White Flint inclusive accounts for nearly double that amount, 9.33%. Silver Spring to Rhode Island Avenue inclusive accounts for 13.92% and Woodley Park to Grosvenor accounts for 20.05%. As I said earlier, New York Avenue to Dupont Circle accounts for 52.26%. Looking at larger segments of the line, the western side of the Red Line (Woodley Park to Shady Grove inclusive) accounts for 29.38% of the boardings, while the eastern side only accounts for 18.35%, meaning that the western side is busier than the eastern side. I can provide other numbers on request, but based on this data and the car assignments (and there are no additional cars that could be assigned to the Red Line without cutting service on some other line), I believe that the Red Line turnbacks are justified on both ends of the Red Line, and that the Shady Grove side should get the turnbacks eliminated before the Glenmont side does. What do others think? |
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| (952685) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 00:26:59 2010, in response to More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:14:57 2010. Ironically Forest Glen has the lowest ridership. I would've thought that dubious distinction would go to Medical Center since I hardly see anyone using that station. How is Brookland/CUA higher than Rockville? These numbers don't seem 100% accurate.The Shady Grove end is much busier than the Glenmont end. There are way more stations and the stations are much busier on the Shady Grove end. It isn't necessary for every Red line train to go to Glenmont. Conversely, trains shouldn't turn at Grosvenor. |
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| (952693) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:55:15 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 00:26:59 2010. How is that ironic? The station is essentially bordered on one side by an 8 lane highway and is surrounded on the other 3 sides by relatively low density residential areas. There are no large commercial generators near the station, and it doesn't have a huge parking facility or much bus service either.Rockville's numbers have always been lower than I would have guessed, but the area also has low density residential neighborhoods and the county government as the closest nearby origin/destination points, and also not as much bus serice as some other stations. Brookland is in a residential area but it is an area that is more dependent on public transit than others served by the Red Line. It is also next to a major university (CUA). I'm guessing you've never been through Medical Center at rush hour. On reverse peak trains that terminate or originate at Grosvenor, they empty out at Medical Center in the mornings and most of the passengers on board the train when they get to Bethesda in the afternoon got on at Medical Center, not Grosvenor. Medical Center is surrounded by government institutions, but in light of security restrictions and parking rules in the area, transit is a popular way for riders who need to get there to arrive there. The numbers seem quite accurate to me, especially in light of having also seen 2003 ridership numbers and seeing that the trends from 2003 are still ongoing in the 2009 data. Also, remember these are average WEEKDAY boardings at each station. Obviously, a station like Medical Center or Judiciary Square on the weekends is going to be a ghost town. You can see the complete set of data at http://wmata.com/pdfs/planning/2009%20Metrorail%20boarding%20by%20station.pdf. |
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| (952697) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 00:58:35 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:55:15 2010. Rockville has a bunch of medium sized office buildings and apartments. About a half mile away is Montgomery College. Whenever I railfan the Red line I always see a bunch of people getting on at Rockville. |
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| (952708) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 5 01:15:26 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:55:15 2010. thanks for the data, and the link. Do they also provide spread sheet data showing origin destination ##? |
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| (952722) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 5 01:23:40 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 00:26:59 2010. Ironically Forest Glen has the lowest ridership. I would've thought that dubious distinction would go to Medical Center since I hardly see anyone using that station. How is Brookland/CUA higher than Rockville? These numbers don't seem 100% accurate. If we could turn this into a teaching moment please...Forest, this is a great example of why some people seriously doubt your ability to provide objective and accurate observations, or even to form well thought out subjective opinions. Here you admit that you would not have guessed what is the actual reality, and you further doubt the actual number to be in fact true. Take Pride,
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| (952725) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 01:26:15 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 5 01:23:40 2010. I understand what you're saying. I'm not disputing you. What I'm saying is that I've physically used the Red line and I've observed quite a few people getting on at Rockville. Conversely, not that many people got on at Brookland/CUA. |
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| (952726) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 5 01:26:40 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:55:15 2010. thanks for the data, but the link is broken. Do they also provide spread sheet data showing origin destination ##? |
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Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 5 01:28:42 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 01:26:15 2010. Yes, I've gathered that. So what you need to know is that your limited observations ARE NOT A REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE. So you need to learn to stop reaching conclusions based on them! They are essentially worthless. |
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| (952728) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 01:29:55 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 5 01:26:40 2010. O/D data exists and is collected but isn't on their website AFAIK.The link to the PDF is under System Ridership & Analysis at this page: http://wmata.com/about_metro/planning_dev.cfm |
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| (952731) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 01:37:42 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 01:26:15 2010. I've physically used the Red Line too and my expectations of the ridership data as a result of my own personal observations, for the most part, are largely in line with the actual ridership data that WMATA posts on its website. My use has varied from occasional trips when I'm in town to daily commuting between different station pairs at different points in my life, and on different days of the week and at different times of day, including holidays such as Thanksgiving, July 4th, and Christmas. I've been on the Red Line more times than I can count in the past month. What about you? |
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| (952732) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 01:40:51 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 01:37:42 2010. I'm obviously not a DC resident but I used the Red line in Black Friday 2006 when I visited my uncle. I've also used in April 2008, March 2009, June 2009, December 2009, and June 2010. I've been to every WMATA station. |
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| (952733) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 5 01:42:30 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 01:29:55 2010. thanks, worked. |
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| (952746) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by fytton on Mon Jul 5 05:44:35 2010, in response to More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:14:57 2010. Sensible suggestions, but we do need to remember that every journey has two ends - every person who boards is intending to alight somewhere....Downtown stations are the busiest in every city, but people wouldn't use transit if it didn't give adequate service to the neighbourhoods where they live as well as the neighbourhoods where they work. |
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| (952761) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Mon Jul 5 08:30:35 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Thu Jul 1 10:28:45 2010. One real pipe dream I've had was to build a line from Rosslyn to Stadium-Armory under Constitution Ave and route the Orange line through there. Basically the Blue and Silver can share the current alignment while Orange can now have some breathing room to itself. |
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| (952775) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 5 09:31:54 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 4 23:38:36 2010. I don't use the 3x buses often but when I have they suffer from the same problems as what I experience with the D6. From what I have seen in practice, the D6 short turns have not brought much improvement because they frequently go through anyway due to abandons. The supplemental D1 and D3 are too few. In the evening (westbound) direction, the buses are quite full (often crush) from downtown past where I alight in Dupont. (Some turnover at Dupont-20th but mainly transfers from the subway.)As for people who ride full routes, a census of them needs to be taken. I would be surprised if there were that many to justify full time end-to-end service. Likely, the bulk would be traveling at about the same time, so schedule runs that go all the way at times when there is, say, a dozen or more going at the same time (such as shift changes at the hospitals). This is mass transit and as such it has to be configured to what the majority requires, not someone's entitlement to personalized service (which is what a lot of the folks on the east side of town seem to think it is). One of the DDOT folks told me a while back that is Metro's biggest problem...they won't put their foot down and abolish inefficient or wasteful practices "because the managers and decision makers have to face a lot of those who would be affected at church on Sunday." All of DC gov suffers from the same thing so it's a pot-kettle thing, but it would be interesting to see if the changing demographics in town will eventually force transit to come into the present. |
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| (952790) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 5 10:17:20 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Forest Glen on Mon Jul 5 01:40:51 2010. That certainly doesn't make you any kind of expert or authority on the system over those of us who have used it frequently or daily for many years. |
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| (952795) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Jul 5 10:26:35 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 01:14:39 2010. Uh, looking at the new South Ferry, I don't have much expectations. |
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| (952796) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 5 10:27:23 2010, in response to More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:14:57 2010. Do they happen to have annual averages? The Rockville number seems rather low...I'm up there quite often and I seldom see it without a good number of people waiting on the platform...particularly in the morning rush and mid-day. |
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| (952799) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 5 10:32:34 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 00:55:15 2010. Brookland is also a big bus transfer station. It gets significant numbers of people using it to get to/from the VA Hospital and Washington Hospital Center. |
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| (952802) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jul 5 10:40:49 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Jul 5 10:27:23 2010. All they have online are the weekday average boardings, which are taken in May each year. WMATA collects the data year round but this seems to be what they are releasing to the public. |
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| (952824) | |
Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA) |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jul 5 11:19:15 2010, in response to Re: More on WMATA Red Line Short Turns (WAS Re: WhineMATA), posted by fytton on Mon Jul 5 05:44:35 2010. Yes but they do not usually teleport back to their origin at the end of the day. The ones who board downtown and alight in the suburbs will likely have done the reverse at some point and been counted. |
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| (953047) | |
Re: WhineMATA |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jul 5 20:55:55 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Jul 5 10:26:35 2010. True. |
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