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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:41:44 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:33:55 2010. Wrong.We all get it that you are infatuated with everything that is the DC Metro. But really, why keep slamming the MTA system? Is it their fault a system that's twice as old and way larger can't be kept at the same standards as your precious system? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 00:42:21 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:40:40 2010. It was implied. Seriously, your constant promoting of WMATA does nothing to help your supposed cause or the image of the system in the minds of many posters here. If you knew what was best, you would stop. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:43:18 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:40:40 2010. I'm paranoid?You immediately jumped onto this thread thinking this was about the DC Metro |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:45:08 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 00:42:21 2010. exactly. There's a limit b/w being an apologist for it and a critic of every other system.Hell for an old rat infested subway system that is the NYCT system, the last two major fatal crashes were both in the 90s. Compare that to the recent crashes in DC. |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 2 00:45:27 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:32:37 2010. The oldest part of the system dates to 1885 (the J line between Gates Avenue and Van Siclen Avenue). |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:46:02 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 2 00:45:27 2010. Yup even older. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:46:59 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:45:08 2010. My point being every system has their flaws no matter how 'good/bad' they are. |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 00:42:21 2010. I promote the system because I like it. Every time I made a statement I had tangible evidence to back it up. I've taken pics and made youtube videos of the Metro. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 00:52:57 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jul 1 23:54:32 2010. So you don't see anything wrong with a $10 one-way fare when people are having trouble coping with a $5 fare? Even I would balk at paying that for a subway ride.Like I said, Metrorail has to stop living in its own Universe where it can think it's a premium commuter service. The reality is it is an urban rapid transit system and has to cater to the needs of a diverse urban population. DC certainly isn't going to be ponying up any more money for WMATA as long as Fenty is in office. How about Virginia and Maryland ante up enough to make my Beyond the Beltway fee unnecessary instead? That way everyone would get a flat $2 per trip fare off-peak and maybe $0.25 or $0.5 higher in peak. Something that has disappeared since the economic downturn started in 2007 is the regional approach to tackling transit matters that had started taking root. First Virginia started bitching about money, then Maryland, and last but not least, DC. Virginia has made it quite clear they would rather build new roads they can make money for themselves from rather than work on fixing the problems with rail that they had a role in creating. (The way they're fucking up VRE is another example of what their thinking is.) Maryland MTA needs to have their air and water checked for controlled substances the way they have been (not) handling oversight of MARC and their boneheaded insistence on moving ahead with the Purple Line. The District isn't much better than the other two, but at least it is still pretty committed to Metro and public transit. The biggest problem here is Fenty and his ego and incompetence. |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 00:54:47 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:32:37 2010. Good points. Also underrated is how close underground NYC subway stations are to street level. Still no doubt DC is nicer. I see no choice for NYC to tear everything down and start over. And that's probably not very realistic given the economy and land cost along with eminent domain issues. I suggest that instead they build a new subway in Orange County and upon completion everyone in NYC should move there. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:55:07 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. So, that's not the problem if you like a system, but do you have to praise them for every thing like they can do no wrong? that's what i'm getting at.What makes them so special that everywhere else is 'evil' for cutting service to bridge the budget gap? |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:02:37 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. Post some pictures and video of metrorail trains in action the next time that they get 5 inches of snow! ;) |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Jul 2 01:04:46 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:39:24 2010. The DC Metro far and away blows BART out of the water in terms of rolling stock, station architecture, scope of system, and about every other metric.That being said, I do like BART. It's just "Boring Ass Rapid Transit" |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:12:12 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Jul 2 01:04:46 2010. I imagine that LACMTA and WMATA are fairly similar. LA copied DC as much as they could. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 01:13:19 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. Many of your statements lack tangible evidence or are outright wrong. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 01:14:39 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 00:54:47 2010. Yup. But at least the SAS will be the most modern tunnel segment+stations since the Archer Av extension and 63rd St stations in the 80s.So at least hopefully that part of the system will be a more fair comparison to the DC Metro. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 01:16:17 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Jul 2 01:04:46 2010. Thanks for the opinion. :)I only wished I rode a bit more of BART, but I wasn't in the city long and there were more places in the city I wanted to visit. Still I did like the ride under the bay though. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 01:17:41 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 00:52:57 2010. My numbers were more theoretical than anything else, I wanted easy numbers to work with to explain what kind of fare system I was proposing. A 10 dollar one way fare would be ludicrous.The WMATA board needs transportation experts and not politicians, and maybe even a rider or two. In addition to what you said, Richmond likes to screw NOVA whenever it can though at least the board members come from the service area, and in MD, the money and board members come from Annapolis and as a result, it doesn't get attention since people who don't get WMATA service have a significant say in its funding. DC is committed to public transit, but I question its commitment to WMATA. Look at how much effort is being put into the streetcars and the Circulator. |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:18:00 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 01:16:17 2010. I did like the ride under the bayMakes my ears pop! |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 01:20:13 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 01:13:19 2010. I've railfanned the Metro. I've seen the ridership patterns. I have pics and videos to back it up. |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 01:20:23 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:18:00 2010. Sure did. I'd love to ride that segment again. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 2 01:21:31 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 00:39:14 2010. green house gasesIn my authoritarian/utopian dreams, parking becomes extremely expensive in cities, transit free or dirt cheap (and much more convenient), and while we are at it, telecommuting is encouraged. |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:27:00 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 2 01:21:31 2010. Alternatively you could adopt a belief in peak oil. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 2 01:58:04 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. I promote the system because I like itThen you shouldn't be blind to its faults. |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 2 02:02:44 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Thu Jul 1 23:38:33 2010. If people can't afford Metrorail then they can take the joke known as the Metrobus.OMG, that is the WRONG attitude to have for a REGIONAL transit system called WMATA. Metrorail and Metrobus are supposed to work together to transport people in the region. It shouldn't be a matter of Metrorail vs Metrobus to get to the destination. It should be a matter of the most economical and convenient way to get from point A to point B. Having the attitude of "poor people for Metrobus and rich people for Metrorail" is going to be WMATA's downfall. |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 2 02:03:43 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:07:23 2010. Instead, they can ride a rat-infested system that has shuttle buses replacing trains on weekends.What system are you describing there? |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 2 02:06:13 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 2 00:46:59 2010. Not quite. SEPTA's perfect! (I'm sooooooo just kidding, lol). |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 2 02:06:55 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:02:37 2010. LOL :) |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 2 02:12:04 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 01:27:00 2010. or you could just accept that oil is finite and that the cheap and easily pumped oil HAS peaked. Look a little deeper into the tar sands crap. The amount of water fouled to produce the oil makes it a net loss. |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 2 02:19:08 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 00:39:14 2010. Yeah, with those parking fees I essentially refuse to park at the stations if I drive down to the area for some reason. The bus P&Rs are a decent alternative, but how many occasional riders will drive, park, and take a bus ride of significant length to the train? |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 2 02:29:48 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 2 02:12:04 2010. I accept that oil is finite. Was that ever in dispute by anyone, anywhere in the world? "Easily pumped" is relative.We do need to ween ourselves off oil as rapidly as possible, but for legitimate reasons not scare tactics like peak oil. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 2 06:42:12 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 01:20:13 2010. Yes, you have. But your observations and your conclusions are SUBJECTIVE because you don't know about and/or don't understand the principles and theories behind Transportation Planning with which one would use to determine which transportation system is better than the other. You instead use your own made-up fantasy criteria. You also don't understand about gathering enough sample observations to ensure that they are representative. Your observations are purely anecdotal for the most part. |
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Posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jul 2 08:34:04 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Thu Jul 1 17:58:36 2010. In the 2+ years I've lived in the DC area, the amount of times I've gone east of 355 (and, for that matter, Old Georgetown Road) I could literally count on one hand. It's like a whole other world.I still say that the area between 355 and 185 is a bit of grey area between stereotypical MoCo ritz and the more realistic eastern MoCo. |
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Posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jul 2 09:07:30 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu Jul 1 18:12:15 2010. The 5 still uses smaller buses (they're all now 29' Gillig runs) on nights but daytime Sunday runs are now all full-sized buses. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 11:16:34 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 01:17:41 2010. I have been told by several sources that Richard White is the reason WMATA isn't "in" on the streetcar project. Supposedly, he felt it would be too costly for WMATA to maintain the fleet and plant; they would be largely duplicative of existing bus service; and since they can't be rerouted are completely at the mercy of road or traffic conditions, they would be viewed as being as unreliable as buses by the public. As a native San Franciscan, I can certainly attest to that last point...road conditions here are considerably more variable than in SF.The way WMATA is structured and funded has always bothered me. The board should consist of individuals who are elected by the constituents of a served jurisdiction, reside in said jurisdiction, and who regularly use bus and rail (as in at least several times a week going about their regular routine, not some token gesture once or twice a month to satisfy the requirement). Naturally, some professional qualifications would need to be applied. MD, VA & DC and the Feds each would have one voting member who is appointed by the corresponding transportation administration. The Rider Advisory Council would consist of volunteers from the general public that uses WMATA service at least 4 times a week. It would have no decision-making authority however, the board would be required to address concerns or issues brought by it in a timely manner. Other regional transportation providers would be encouraged to appoint non-voting representatives who may participate in discussion of matters relevant to them so they are "in the loop." Funding should be a fixed amount split 4-ways, plus an assessment of $x per resident and business with more than 25 employees (maybe $x+ or $x* for the businesses) in served areas. (For the Feds it could be something like 25-30% of the number of workers in the region to account for those who also reside here.) How the jurisdictions fund the "per person" amount is up to them. One of my biggest peeves is how the rail and bus operations act like feuding neighbors. Most of the animosity seems to stem from Bus, which feels because its roots go back much further than Rail it is somehow superior and entitled to "stick to tradition" and do things however they feel, regardless of how inefficient or wasteful it is in today's environment. For one thing, schedules need to be fully coordinated at major transfer points so passengers have time to make connections. Another is the stupidity that swirls around abandoned intervals and "bunched" buses. If there is a gap in service then do something right away to address it. At the very least, make damn sure that the folks at customer service are promptly notified so people calling asking where the bus is aren't put on hold for 10 minutes and either disconnected or told there are no delays. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 11:20:51 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 00:49:00 2010. I like WMATA and I am something of a cheerleader for it, too. But I am also critical of its failings because I use the service to actually get around, not railfan. You clearly know little or nothing about how business or transportation actually work. Learn about those and then get back to us. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 11:58:23 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 11:16:34 2010. Metrobus really needs to get into the present day instead of living in the 1970s. I was disappointed to see that when the fare/service changes were approved, that every Metrobus that was up for elimination or restructuring was saved, even though it seems to me that many of these routes and services are only providing transit to a handful of people and are not efficient to operate. In my opinion, a massive reevaluation of the entire bus system is in order, and once that evaluation is complete, the bus routes should be modified to complement the rail system better, meet existing demands and travel patterns, and to be less wasteful. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 2 12:18:40 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 11:16:34 2010. First, elected board members are no guarantee of rider friendly or rational policies. The BART board is elected--has a long habit of badly planned projects always way over budget. Currently they are working feverishly to arrange "funding swaps" to waste 1/2 billion on a 3 mile "amusement park ride" from their nearest station to the parking lot at Oakland Airport. The funding shenanigans are because FTA ruled they had failed to meet Title VI civil rights regs.Second, as to streetcars, striping the tracks as no autos with camera driven enforcement could make them work just fine. About "interservice rivalry" within WMATA, I have no direct evidence, but your points about coordination and line management are valid for any system. The funding conundrum is, in my view, a national crisis which needs Federal action to permanently fund operations on a riders carried basis. How to do this while the highway/oil/auto lobbies are still active is not clear to me, but the necessity is. |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 13:52:57 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 11:20:51 2010. I NEVER said the DC Metro was perfect. The Green line runs too infrequently middays and weekends. The Red and Orange lines experience overcrowding. There are subway systems in Europe and Asia that make the Metro look like SEPTA. What I said was that the Metro is the best subway system I've ever used. It's my favorite subway system. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:10:59 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 13:52:57 2010. There are subway systems in Europe and Asia that make the Metro look like SEPTA.Which ones would those be? The Green line runs too infrequently middays and weekends. The Green Line runs no less frequently than the other 4 lines during those time periods. The Yellow Line was extended to Fort Totten to accommodate increased the ridership between Mount Vernon Square and Fort Totten. The Red and Orange lines experience overcrowding. What about the Green Line? |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 14:18:51 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:10:59 2010. Which ones would those be?London, Paris, Taipei, Moscow, Hong Kong, Seoul What about the Green Line? The Branch Avenue end is busy. The Greenbelt end is underutilized. Getting back to the topic, I'm a Metro fan just like I'm a Yankees fan. Contrary to popular belief, however, I'm not oblivious to the flaws of the Metro. |
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Posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jul 2 14:21:07 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 14:18:51 2010. The Branch Avenue end is busy. The Greenbelt end is underutilized.I would wager to say the reverse is true depending on time of day. There are a lot more things near the Greenbelt end (PG Plaza, UMD, the Federal Courthouse) than on the Branch Ave end (which outside the Federal Center at Suitland I can't see there being anything). |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 2 14:39:37 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jul 1 21:55:06 2010. I'm personally tempted to argue that given the planning theories in common at that time, I suspect that the engineers decided to eschew Georgetown to save time for the suburban commuters who were expected to be the bread and butter of WMATA Metrorail ridership, and the potential engineering difficulties as noted by others may have reinforced that decision. I suspect that the planners presumed that buses would suffice, and if somebody really wanted to ride Metrorail, they'd transfer for a bus at Foggy Bottom... |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 14:44:26 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:10:59 2010. I have to agree that service on the Green/Yellow sucks. I have waited on a train at Gallery Place many times with displayed arrival times of "18 minutes" or more in the middle of a business day. Clearly there had not been a train for some time, and there were no announcements of delays on the line. I don't take G/Y often, maybe a few times a month every few months, but that my experience has been consistent strongly suggests need for improvement. Evening and weekend service is pretty lousy as well. Whenever I go over to Pentagon City, I always get there faster using the Blue instead of Yellow.Back at Christmas a friend and I decided to prove it. I got off at Metro and took Blue, he went on to Gallery for Yellow. The board gave 16 minutes for the next Yellow, I had a 14 minute wait for the Blue. I got there 15 minutes before he did. His train didn't arrive at Gallery for 20 minutes and then just sat there with no explanation for like another 10. There wasn't any work being done that weekend or indication of workers on the tracks for something unexpected, either. Then it took its sweet time getting to L'Enfant. There could be any number of legit explanations for why it took so long, but there's no excuse for no announcements of any kind. And, I have had similar experiences on the Yellow between downtown and Virginia many times. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:45:13 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Jul 2 14:18:51 2010. You didn't bother to distinguish between congestion on ends of the Orange Line or Red Line though.I've actually been on the subways in London and Paris (in addition to WMATA and SEPTA). Have you? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:47:26 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 14:44:26 2010. I don't think the Green/Yellow are coordinated through the core the way the Blue/Orange are. When the Yellow Line ended at MVS, I'm not sure it was a big deal, but if they aren't scheduled better now, it is a problem. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 15:02:09 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jul 2 14:21:07 2010. Branch Av gets a lot of people from down Rt.5 in addition to folks commuting from the Temple Hills area. Not much else, though. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 15:18:44 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 14:47:26 2010. G/Y service has always struck me as being an afterthought. I was seeing someone in Alexandria for a while back in 1993. At the time I worked at 11th & H...convenient to either Metro Center or Gallery Place. I discovered quickly that even though Yellow was the more direct route, unless it was the next train, just take Blue. The rush hour pattern in those days was 2 Blue to 1 Yellow in either direction at King St. I don't know what it is these days. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jul 2 15:22:25 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jul 2 15:18:44 2010. It should be a 1:1 ratio, or at least that is what the schedule calls for. |
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Posted by SchuminWeb on Sat Jul 3 13:24:42 2010, in response to Re: WhineMATA, posted by Scrabbleship on Thu Jul 1 14:44:19 2010. Thank you! Not everyone who lives in MoCo is wealthy. I live in MoCo less than two miles from Glenmont station, and I am of very modest means. |
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