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(792226)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 3 18:33:11 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jun 3 13:32:22 2009.

Back in the late 1970s/early 1980s when I was in the schedule office, we looked at a Woodlawn express which would have been all stop to Burnside and then express to 125 St but it was determined that the ridership at the local stations was too high to justify the service. As part of the service plan, put ins from Mosholu Yd would go into service S/B directly at Bed Pk and make all local stops similar the the old F service pattern in Bkln. The revers service would have been operated in the PM but I don't recall if locals were to discharge at Burnside or Bedford before laying up. Actually, due to the presence of Lehman College at Bed Pk and bus lines at Kingsbridge and Fordham, I think these expresses should run local to Burnside.

(792471)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 10:02:54 2009, in response to EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Jun 2 21:10:57 2009.

That's pretty interesting in a time of budget cuts that they would try something like this! Cool!

(792473)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jun 4 10:04:22 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 10:02:54 2009.

What does this have to do with budget cuts?

(792476)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 10:05:55 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jun 4 10:04:22 2009.

It's sort of an expansion of service. Usually they are getting rid of stuff like "unneeded" express runs, etc.

(792481)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jun 4 10:19:27 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 10:05:55 2009.

It's sort of an expansion of service. Usually they are getting rid of stuff like "unneeded" express runs, etc.


No, it's not a service expansion. No trains were added, AFAIK. Instead, there will be fewer "local trains". This is just a service reallocation, not a service increase, in terms of manpower and equipment requirements.

Again, the people at the local stops will have LESS service, as noted by the advisory you saw in my blog post.

Take Pride,
Terrapin Station


Now featuring the RailfanWindow.com Blog!





(792512)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 11:29:51 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jun 4 10:19:27 2009.

No, it's not a service expansion. No trains were added, AFAIK. Instead, there will be fewer "local trains". This is just a service reallocation, not a service increase, in terms of manpower and equipment requirements.


How is that different than "getting rid of the Z" or something like that....all Z's are are resigned J's that skip stations with the unresigned J's.

(792515)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 11:37:21 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jun 4 11:29:51 2009.

Then its a service cut for the local stations...

(792516)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 11:39:43 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 11:37:21 2009.


You mean express stations.

Did they ever publish a doomsday schedule showing J service without the Z? There's no way they could run the same amount of J's without the Z's. Cutting the Z would have meant having to add extra J trains, which made the whole concept of eliminating the Z pointless.

(792518)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 11:43:12 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 11:39:43 2009.

You mean express stations.

How is that so when the so called "express stations" will get the same amount of trains?


Did they ever publish a doomsday schedule showing J service without the Z?

They didnt have to at the time because it was going to go in effect in the winter not the summer...So it was irrelevant to do so..







(792519)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Jun 4 11:49:02 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 11:39:43 2009.

False, J/Z trains alternate on 5 minute headways.

Cutting the Z out allows more room for NYCT to reduce J service, as all-stop trains to 6, 7 or even 8 minute headways.

(792522)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:20:52 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Jun 4 11:49:02 2009.


And cutting the Z would have left the entire line servied with J trains running every 10 minutes, which would be unacceptable. So any Z-less schedule would have necessitated many more J trains to be added. Before the Z was introduced the J ran at a maximum of 6 minute headways. That's 10 TPH. The J/Z currently uses 12 TPH. That's why cutting the Z would have been pointless, as the actual savings would have been minimal.

8 TPH is also not enough. They used this headway in the aftermath of 9/11 when the J and M ran to 95th St and Coney Island respectively and the trains were just too crowded (and demand then was less).

(792524)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:24:41 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 11:43:12 2009.


If the Z was cut, express (J/Z stations like Woodhaven and Crescent) would see a cut in service unless every Z train was replaced by a J, which then would render the Z elimination pointless.

(792525)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 4 12:26:56 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Jun 4 11:49:02 2009.

About the J and Z trains:

One method of eliminating the Z-train, and I do not believe that the MTA actually meant what I am saying, is simply to sign all Z trains as J trains. Thus all J-trains simply run at the same frequency, same schedule, same manpower, same train needs - but no Z-train labels are used.

The basic problem is that no one believes that MTA will not reduce service - as in less frequent trains, more crowded trains, less manpower to run those trains, etc.

Now the Bronx express #4:

Something similar happens on Staten Island with the limited stop buses which are kind of like "express buses". Limited stop buses generally run during the rush hours. The limited stop buses make fewer stops the closer it is to the ferry terminal, thus those at the "local stops" have to wait for the next bus. So if out of the distant terminal the AM buses (for a particular line) run at 10 minutes apart for example, those at the local closer to the ferry terminal stops have to wait 20 minutes for a bus. One day I looked at the printed bus schedules and noted the time differences.

Please note that in the PM, the limited bus situation is very different. As each boat arrives at the SI Ferry terminal, there is a pair of buses for a line, say the S-44. Waiting on the bus platform for an arriving boat will be an S-44 local bus, and an S-94 the limited stop bus. This allows those further out to take one bus, and while those closer in to take another bus - evening out the passenger load.

In the case of the #4 train, there aren't trains every 8.5 minutes during that period, so that half of the trains run express. It has been noted before that #4 trains run on a schedule of a train every 4 minutes out of the Bronx terminal, or something like that. Local riders while having at certain points to wait longer than usual, often may not have wait TWICE as long.

Just my thoughts.
Mike


(792531)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:35:25 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 4 12:26:56 2009.


Good points. I see this service having the same problems the initial "W" express service had on the Astoria line, being that the bypassed stations were some of the most heavily patronized. Couple that with the fact that all "4" trains, local or express eventually come together onto the same track south of 149th and I just don't see the advantages.

(792534)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 12:41:28 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:24:41 2009.

Im sorry i thougth we was disscussing 4 service in the Bronx...

(792545)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Dan on Thu Jun 4 13:10:41 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:35:25 2009.

The morning southbound "4" expresses should also skip 138 Street instead of switiching back to the local track before 149 Street, just stay on the "M" express track, switching to the "1" local track south of 138 Street.

Why no pilot PM "4" express service?

(792546)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 13:11:31 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 4 13:10:41 2009.

I think all the #4 trains already do this.

(792557)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Jun 4 13:26:48 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 4 13:10:41 2009.

4 trains cross from 1 track to M track just North Of Mott during the AM peak...

(792559)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Q46 LTD Glen Oaks on Thu Jun 4 13:37:14 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 4 13:10:41 2009.

That service pattern wouldn't work well in the PM. The express trains would be virtually empty after Burnside causing the local to remain packed.

(792568)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Jun 4 13:54:00 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by metrolinecoach111 on Tue Jun 2 23:54:16 2009.

Well, if this is a partial solution to overcrowding on the East Side, it's worth a try, IMO.

(792634)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Thu Jun 4 18:02:47 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 12:20:52 2009.

Stop being obsessed over this because the Z is staying.

(792663)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Jun 4 19:18:50 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jun 3 00:00:57 2009.

Same with Hillside LIB Riders. 99% get off at 179th Street to get on the F, while many "northbound" passengers get of at 169th st, to get a seat, or to not be flagged at 179th.

(Sunday Evenings I would ALWAYS get off at 169th street, because if you took the chance, you might get flagged by a packed N6 at 179th st)

(792706)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Broadway Buffer on Thu Jun 4 20:52:42 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by R42 4787 on Tue Jun 2 23:43:11 2009.

A diamond designation would be more useful on a PM express if they decide to try that at some point, since those boarding in Manhattan & Brooklyn would need to know that it's an express. In this case, the only station where you'd have to look is Woodlawn.

(792711)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by 33rd Street on Thu Jun 4 20:56:44 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by N6 Limited on Thu Jun 4 19:18:50 2009.

When I ride LIB, I'll keep that in mind.

(792717)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by 33rd Street on Thu Jun 4 21:05:02 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Jun 2 23:28:32 2009.

I've seen that plenty of times. What would be wise is to make the 4 like the way the 6 is in The Bronx.

(793064)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jun 5 13:44:09 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 4 13:11:31 2009.

AM 6:30 AM - 8:45 AM


PM 4:40 PM - 6:15 PM

(793068)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by davesgcr on Fri Jun 5 13:52:51 2009, in response to EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Jun 2 21:10:57 2009.

Does it not throw up some rolling stock / crew savings over the course of the peak period if the trains end to end journey time is reduced ?

Assume that the northbound am trains run as always (ie local in the Bronx) .....

(793069)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jun 5 13:56:17 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by davesgcr on Fri Jun 5 13:52:51 2009.

Even if that 3-3.5 minute time savings is maintained all the way to the southern terminal (and I'm not sure if it will be), it's only 4 trains in one hour and that's it. I don't see where the rolling stock / crew savings would be.

(793089)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Fri Jun 5 14:24:00 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jun 5 13:56:17 2009.

With nine stops, the 3 minute time savings is strange.

B trains in Brooklyn skip 8 stops between Prospect Park and Sheepshead Bay and the running time is 8-9 minutes shorter over the Q.


I know that timers are most likely at N/O Burnside due to the downhill from 183rd Street, but I suspect there are more timers along the newly resignalled Track M than just at Burnside.

(793096)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jun 5 14:39:55 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 2 21:29:31 2009.

The crossover is south of Mosholu.

(793097)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jun 5 14:42:58 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 3 18:33:11 2009.

I agree, expresses should run all local stops to Burnside. Maybe they think the time savings would not be worth it then.

(793101)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jun 5 14:49:59 2009, in response to Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by italianstallion on Fri Jun 5 14:39:55 2009.

OK ... I remember there being one just NORTH of there, but not south ... I guess they moved it.

(793102)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: PRESS RELEASE -New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Jun 5 14:51:53 2009, in response to EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Jun 2 21:10:57 2009.

MTA Release from mta.info

MTA New York City Transit is set to begin a pilot program aimed at shortening travel times along the 4 Line with the creation of a new Bronx Express 4 service between Woodlawn and 149th Street-Grand Concourse. The enhanced service will operate for a one-hour period during the weekday morning rush.

The pilot will begin June 8th and run through June 26th and be comprised of four trains within a one-hour period during the morning rush. The Bronx Express trains are scheduled to depart weekdays from Woodlawn at 7:15 a.m., 7:30 a.m., 7:45 a.m. and 8 a.m. After leaving Woodlawn, the Bronx Express 4 will make a station stop at Mosholu Parkway before switching to the middle track and heading to Burnside Avenue. From Burnside, the train will make its final Bronx station stop at 149th Street before making all regular express stops along the 4.

Customers boarding at Mosholu Parkway and Burnside Avenue will be alerted to the Bronx Express 4 by conductors' announcements. Customers are being informed of the pilot through the distribution of take-ones printed in English and Spanish, as well as informational posters.

"The idea for this pilot is directly attributable to the Line General Managers program and it illustrates the types of innovations made possible when you have people running the railroad directly. David Knights, Group General Manager of IRT East and 4 Line General Manager Herb Lambert were looking to speed travel along a route that has been traditionally local in the Bronx," said New York City Transit President Howard H. Roberts, Jr. "Signal improvements and the continued mechanical reliability of the car fleet have allowed them to try new ways of improving service."

"By skipping nine stations, the Bronx Express 4 is expected to shave about 3.5 minutes off the 20 to 21 minutes scheduled running time between Woodlawn and 149th Street-Grand Concourse during the height of the a.m. peak. This is a significant time saving when you are headed out to work in the morning," said IRT East Group General Manager Knights. "This pilot will determine the feasibility of bringing Jerome Avenue service in line with the Concourse, White Plains Road and Pelham Bay corridors by offering an express service to morning commuters."

This pilot is possible because of the recent upgrades made to the center track signaling system within the 2005-2009 Capital Program. The signal job called for the installation of intermediate signals along the stretch of elevated track between Woodlawn and 161st Street. As a result of the project, we now have a greater flexibility of use with the middle track and can send trains in passenger service as well as work trains up or down the middle track. In the event of a disruption in service or track maintenance, we can also reroute trains onto the middle track. Similar signaling systems, allowing express service, are in place on the Flushing and White Plains Road Lines among others that have three tracks.

The results of the pilot will be evaluated after the completion of the three-week period and a decision will be made on whether to make this change permanent.

Customers may call our Travel Information Center at 718-330-1234 from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily, or log onto www.tripplanner.mta.info to use Trip Planner to plan their trips. Customers with web enabled phones or PDAs can use our Trip Planner On-the-Go! by going to www.tripplanner.mta.info/mobile; in addition to planning their trips, Blackberry users can download the free icon for one touch access to the service.


(793605)

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Re: EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8

Posted by Aq Arcticson on Sat Jun 6 17:14:17 2009, in response to EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS: New Jerome line AM express starts test phase on June 8, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Jun 2 21:10:57 2009.

It seems like the time savings increases the further down the line you go. In Trip Planner, It says the 7:15 <4> from Woodlawn will get to Bowling Green in 39 mins [7:54AM], versus the 7:14 (4) from the same station will get there in 50 mins [8:04am]. The interesting part is the 7:03 (4) gets to Bowling Green at the same time as the 7:15 <4>...so I wonder who is trailing behind who =)

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