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| (76496) | |
Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Wed Apr 20 23:16:27 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Apr 20 15:38:43 2005. Here's a photo I took in 1980 (Kings Highway): |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Apr 20 23:43:31 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 20 15:45:04 2005. Now that is what I call a classic map! |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Apr 20 23:47:36 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 09:59:39 2005. David, you are wrong.BMT is Division B-1. IND is Division B-2. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Apr 20 23:48:42 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Wed Apr 20 23:16:27 2005. So now we know for sure. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Apr 20 23:50:59 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 07:09:19 2005. Actually the F and D lines are IND. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by American Pig on Wed Apr 20 23:58:37 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Apr 20 20:10:55 2005. But is it as pointless as the Good Guy Awards? |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by American Pig on Thu Apr 21 00:01:34 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 15:36:14 2005. You probably heard this morning why my B train had to wait for both pockets to clear at Brighton Beach before it could get in.The pockets were full of chometz and they were trying to get an early start. :-D |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 00:24:25 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Apr 20 23:50:59 2005. D and B are IND till Manhattan Bridge - at least that's what I remember. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 02:28:00 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 15:59:48 2005. separate radio channels do not mean muchthe 7 line is IRT but the radio channel is BMT |
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| (76551) | |
Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 02:41:45 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Tue Apr 19 20:14:38 2005. Is Mr Ed talking to you again? |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:45:54 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 02:28:00 2005. The Flushing line WAS BMT until 1949. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:48:07 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Broadway Junction on Wed Apr 20 20:10:55 2005. What argument? The Culver line was IND from 1954 to 1967, when divisional distinctions were eliminated. This is not in dispute. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:49:59 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Wed Apr 20 23:16:27 2005. Excellent. I didn't know they erected signage to indicate the divisional transfer. Thanks for sharing. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Thu Apr 21 09:05:16 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:49:59 2005. It's also interesting to note how the lines were divided by division on the 1972 subway map: (From http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972a.htm) Under "IND" (B) Av of Americas (6th Av) Exp. (BMT in Brooklyn) (D) Av of Americas (6th Av) Exp. (BMT in Brooklyn) (EE) Broadway Local (BMT in Manhattan) Under "BMT" (KK) Av of Americas (6th Av) Broadway (Brooklyn) Local (IND in Manhattan) |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 09:10:42 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Thu Apr 21 09:05:16 2005. I have this same map. The F line is not identified with the moniker "BMT in Brooklyn", like the B & D are. I also have the 1978 map, which denotes the N line as "IND in Queens". At this point, you see why they gave up indicating divisional distinctions in 1979. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 09:27:35 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Thu Apr 21 09:05:16 2005. Fairly even split on the number of lines in each... |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:35:33 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by American Pig on Thu Apr 21 00:01:34 2005. I guess that explains the track fire at Sheepshead Bay as well. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:36:15 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:48:07 2005. If divisional distinctions were eliminated in 1967, why did I have to fiddle with my scanner this morning at Grand Street? |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:38:10 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 02:41:45 2005. Only when I ride R-142's. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:43:10 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Apr 20 23:50:59 2005. The West End line is not IND. The 4th Avenue line is not IND. The Manhattan Bridge is not IND. The Culver line is not IND. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 09:49:38 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 08:45:54 2005. I agree, the 7 is a BMT line running IRT cars especially due to the Steinway tube which can only handle IRT size or smaller. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by R33 9139 on Thu Apr 21 09:54:44 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:43:10 2005. "The West End line is not IND." correct "The 4th Avenue line is not IND." correct "The Manhattan Bridge is not IND." correct "The Culver line is not IND." incorrect
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:23:20 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:36:15 2005. Certain sections of the system use different radio channels. Officially, there is no BMT, IRT or IND (just A, B1 and B2). Those are irrelevant to the riding public. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:24:39 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 09:49:38 2005. The BMT didn't operate cars thru the Steinway tubes. Only the section from Queensboro Plaza east was joint. IRT service also ran to Astoria. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:29:41 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by R33 9139 on Thu Apr 21 09:54:44 2005. I think we're arguing seperate subjects here. Today, it's acceptable to call the Culver el "BMT", since this designation relates only to historical status. However, operationally, the Culver el was considered an IND line after 1954, and was designated IND on maps as late as 1978. Today, this operational status is irrelevant. BTW, is what's the current status of this line, B1 or B2 division (i'm not referring to which radio frequency it uses)? |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:30:45 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by R33 9139 on Thu Apr 21 09:54:44 2005. I think we're arguing seperate subjects here. Today, it's acceptable to call the Culver el "BMT", since this designation relates only to historical status. However, operationally, the Culver el was considered an IND line after 1954, and was designated IND on maps as late as 1978. Today, this operational status is irrelevant. BTW, what's the current status of this line, B1 or B2 division (i'm not referring to which radio frequency it uses)? (damn dyslexia!) |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:31:26 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:43:10 2005. I didn't say anything before, but I don't believe we could call the Culver "BMT" anymore, I believe it's IND. The IND took it completely over, and doesn't use any of the former BMT Lines. It's as IND as the Liberty El is, even though that was originally built as part of the BMT Eastern Division. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:34:57 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 20 15:36:39 2005. The "Culver" name was even dropped when the IND took over, and remained off until probably the 90's. It was called the IND 6th Ave line on the old maps. Later, in the 80's, all the south brooklyn lines still stated "West End" line, or whatever, but the f line remained blank. It wasn't until one of the maps in the 90's that they once again added Culver to that line on the map. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Alex L. on Thu Apr 21 10:36:33 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:30:45 2005. ,i>BTW, what's the current status of this line, B1 or B2 division (i'm not referring to which radio frequency it uses)?You can't have it both ways. The F is in the B Division - as are all the lettered lines. There is no B1 or B2 division. Its radio frequency is B1 from Stillwell station to Church Ave, where the crew are instructed to turn their radios to the B2 frequency |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:36:53 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 20 11:53:56 2005. The Culver line is just as officially an IND line as the Liberty El is. I don't think anyone would call the Liberty El a "BMT" line anymore (not that those terms are used anyway, but you know what I mean). |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:38:45 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Larry Fendrick (NotchIt)-Webmaster on Thu Apr 21 09:05:16 2005. I wonder why they would feel they would have to call the KK a BMT route. It's just as much a "mix" of the IND and the BMT as the D or B were. Just shows you that they had it "in" for that line right from the beginning. It's a wonder that connnection was even ever built between the Broadway El and 6th Ave. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:39:58 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 09:27:35 2005. True, but if all the other "split" lines were put under "IND", the KK should have too. The split should have been designated between the KK and the L. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:40:18 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:36:53 2005. The Culver designation is more complicated because it's still physically connected to and it shares BMT infrastructure. The Liberty Ave. el has no connection to any existing part of the BMT and hasn't since 1956. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:42:17 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:34:57 2005. That's right. In the 1980's, all the "Culver" signage at Stillwell was still covered over with "IND" signage. The Culver name was kept in reference to the shuttle. It wasn't until the 1990's that it was revived for the F line on maps. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:44:04 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:38:45 2005. I believe the BMT designation was due to the line's cars coming from ENY. The "KK" designation was assigned to the BMT in 1960 for a route which never used any IND trackage. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:51:34 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 09:59:39 2005. I don't see any average current rider having any idea that there is a distinction between what was the IND and what was the BMT. Most of them probably have trouble telling that there is a difference between the IRT and the B division! Most people have no idea (or even care) that an F train can't come pulling into the Union Square IRT station.Believe me, the biggest reaction you would get from an average rider if an announcement was made on their F train at 23rd Street-Ely Avenue that their train was going to be rerouted to Grand Central and run as a 4 train to Brooklyn, would be a "Crap, now I ha ve to get off because this train isn't going where I want it to go." You would not get any "amazement" reaction (like you would get from a train full of railfans). You are giving the (current) average rider way too much credit to think they know the distinctions between the BMT and the IND. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:55:41 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:40:18 2005. What BMT infastructure?This?: 
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:58:23 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 10:44:04 2005. I believe the BMT designation was due to the line's cars coming from ENY.Yeah, that makes sense, the KK was using the sh*t of the system just like the other Eastern Division lines were. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Apr 21 11:07:47 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Alex L. on Thu Apr 21 10:36:33 2005. Alex,There is no Division B. There is a Division B-1 once known as BMT and Division B-2 once known as IND. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 21 11:10:35 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:55:41 2005. The Coney Island station, the shared ROW with the Brighton line at W8th St and the connection to the yard. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Alex L. on Thu Apr 21 12:38:27 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Apr 21 11:07:47 2005. You'll just have to trust me, as someone who works in the B Division, that it really does exist. The chain goes like this:
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Alex L. on Thu Apr 21 12:40:41 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Apr 21 11:07:47 2005. You'll just have to trust me, as someone who works in the B Division, that it really does exist. The chain goes like this: (scroll down - something about the tables makes a lot of blank space)
When the A Division picks, everyone in the A picks; when the B Division picks, everyone in the B picks. How it gets divided in Stations I don't know. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 12:50:25 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by Alex L. on Thu Apr 21 10:36:33 2005. last time i looked "S" was a letterand 1 of 'em runs tsq-g cntrl (IRT) WHY CAN'T I HAVE IT BOTH WAYS?????????????????????????? |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 21 15:36:10 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Apr 21 11:07:47 2005. B-1 and B-2 are only for the B Div radio wise.Other than that its like what Alex said,and A and a B Div.This is RTO dont know how other departments do thier thing. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Eric B on Thu Apr 21 17:06:12 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by JohnL on Tue Apr 19 08:08:32 2005. The brickwork isn't new. But what you need to look at is the new staircase just installed.>Old signal tower; will come down soon enough So no; it was just gutted, but will be rehabbed. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Eric B on Thu Apr 21 17:17:45 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:39:58 2005. But notice it also keeps the lines alphabetical. It maintains the original 1960 designation of IND=A-H; BMT=J-T (The KK reserved for the 14 to Canal; which of course was called JJ on the first Chrystie map, and then KK when sent up 6th Av). |
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Different ways of reckoning IND and BMT |
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Posted by Eric B on Thu Apr 21 18:11:10 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Apr 20 07:09:19 2005. Structurally, the lines (and their stations) remain what they were constructed as. All four lines leading to CI are solidly BMT. Yet; 3 IND routes were extended over them over time. Two of the lines were connected to the BMT on both ends (CI and Dekalb). One of them saw continued BMT Broadway and Nassau line service. The other could still have BMT trains rerouted over it to CI terminal or yard. So these lines still retained their BMT association. The IND routes running over them were said to become BMT in the sections running over them. The car equipment also became a mix of BMT and IND. (this began to become irrelevant; as different cars were spread all around anyway, and beginning with R-42, new cars also spread around).The other line was connected only on one end (CI& the yard), with the BMT connection on the other end severed. So it became IND completely (even down to the signal chaining code; which went from BMT-C to an extended IND-B). However; the radio channel remained BMT. (it would have to change over somewhere anyway, so why bother changing the line for several stations?) Car equipment generally remained IND. Meanwhile; there was one or another BMT line extended over the Queens IND. This retained BMT designation and equipment; until it was truncated in Manhattan. Then, it took a north-orientation, with an IND-style EE designation, and was then considered IND. Equipment was then a mix, IIRC. Also, another BMT line was extended to the IND 6th Av. line, and retained a BMT designation, but was shortlived. Another BMT line had IND extended over it; but the BMT connection was a several mile long light rail only line, which was demolished. Completely isolated from the BMT; it became strictly IND, with even the radio lines converted. The chaining code remained BMT (K), however. The 7 is connected only to the BMT, so in the control center, which has a wall diagram for each division, it was included with the BMT, and so uses the B1 channel, and answers to the B1 Desk next to that map. Even Hagstrom maps revised it's designations during the Manhattan Bridge switches. They used to follow the structural definition of IND and BMT (except for Culver and Liberty, which became IND) with lines having different length dashes distinguishing each. Grand St. was drawn as BMT, and then it merged with the IND before Bway-Laf. Queens was IND. But then, at some point; they began showing Queens as both IND and BMT, with both lines next to each other. Then, when the B and D were moved over to Bway; they showed the double line on Bway. Grand St. was an isolated piece of BMT that still merged with the IND. Then, when they were moved back to 6th Av. with the Q; the double line was on 6th Av. to 57th, and then 21st. St. I was waiting to see what they would do for the 2001 changes, since the IND designations were not going back to Bway that time. But it was then that they did away with the old handdrawn maps, and replaced them with the new ADC style computer drawn maps, which use a line similar to the old IND line (with short dashes) for all subway lines. What I was wondering, was when the crew assignment was consolidated into the present North-Queen-South system. How long was IND/BMT maintained. I remember in the 90's; when I was learning more and more about the system (but not working for it yet) I had heard someone say the the Brighton was completely IND (both D and 6th Av. Q), then. IIRC, he may have been talking about the "personnel". Was it still divided like that that late? In one sense, you can look at South (Dist.5) as descending from BMT, because the CI and Dekalb hubs and lines between them were the bulk of the BMT, but with the B and D added to it. Queens (Dist.4) descends from IND, based entirely in the Queen line and Jamaica yard, with the R added to it. North (Dist.3) is basically the grouping of the unrelated lines from both divisions left over. (It would be connected with a C/M combo; but that is another currently ongoing discussion. Otherwuse; they are similar in that the C, J, L, and M remain 8 cars; and until the L getting the 143's; were always the dumping ground of the system. They also can be said to have a common hub in the ENY area; though once again; there is no physical connection there). Though the D used to be apart of the North I heard. I guess in a way the A, C and D as north could also be seen as descending from the IND; with the BMT East thrown in. So the IND was split into those two districts; while most of the BMT remained nearly intact as District 5 |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by Broadway Junction on Thu Apr 21 23:05:46 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 21 10:58:23 2005. Hey now, watch it! Don't be dissin' ENY! ;)
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by American Pig on Thu Apr 21 23:20:30 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by monorail on Thu Apr 21 02:41:45 2005. Hello Wilbur. |
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Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade |
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Posted by American Pig on Thu Apr 21 23:21:36 2005, in response to Re: Photos of Stillwell Terminal's new facade, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 21 09:36:15 2005. Because you didn't bring a violin and had nothing else to fiddle? |
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