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New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009 New Jersey officials are suspending further reefing of NY subway cars, until they can determine why the cars are not holding up after just one year in the water. Reefing Suspended |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 6 18:31:16 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. Is the water more acidic than expected? |
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| (741245) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Feb 6 19:26:18 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. Water + carbon steel = rust. That's basic middle school chemistry. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Feb 6 20:04:11 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. Maybe it's all the fenugreek. |
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| (741274) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Feb 6 20:14:23 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Feb 6 19:26:18 2009. LOL, forgot the oxygen, as in oxidation.your pal, Fred |
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| (741277) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Feb 6 20:23:42 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. We found unusual damage. We don’t know the cause or the scope of it yet.Are the fish vandalizing the cars ? Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (741288) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Feb 6 20:39:08 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Fred G on Fri Feb 6 20:14:23 2009. There's still sufficient dissolved oxygen at the depth at which the cars are buried to facilitating rusting. Rusting can occur in relatively anoxic areas of the ocean; look at the Titanic wreck! This rusting is due to anaerobic iron-eating bacteria (Desulfovibrio vulgaris), which can also cause pretty severe corrosion (albeit at a much slower rate). Such bacteria use sulfates as oxidizers. |
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| (741292) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Feb 6 20:42:22 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Feb 6 20:39:08 2009. Thanks for clarifying, but even in that short a span of time? Fraid so!your pal, Fred |
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| (741296) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Fri Feb 6 20:49:52 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. another name for dumping trash into the ocean legally lol."Artificial Reefs". The politically correct way to convince people its ok to dump trash into the ocean... f'ing America... no wonder so many people are jobless, people are morons. |
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| (741300) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 6 20:57:18 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. Maybe they should have used a better grade of duct tape to hold them together. |
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| (741301) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 6 20:57:21 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. Thank goodness for the Economic StimulusBill. The New Jersey Democrats can spend one or two hundred million studying whether the free cars are worth the effort. |
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| (741306) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Fri Feb 6 21:03:40 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Feb 6 20:39:08 2009. But more importantly how can you twist all that crap into it contributing even MORE for the global climate changing warming crisis!? |
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| (741364) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Sat Feb 7 00:49:09 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. The K-cars off Sea Girt are horrible shape and were falling apart after only a decade. |
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| (741365) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 7 00:59:08 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R42 4787 on Sat Feb 7 00:49:09 2009. Must be that fine Jersey shore water. :( |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by B47man on Sat Feb 7 01:23:29 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Feb 6 19:26:18 2009. Add salt to that equation and there you have it. |
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| (741386) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by heypaul on Sat Feb 7 07:15:29 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by B47man on Sat Feb 7 01:23:29 2009. There's another article with some more details. http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/185/story/396146.html I wonder if the cars are being crushed by the weight of the water on their tops? But that's assuming that the cars land roof up. Just how are the cars placed on the ocean floor? Are they dropped or guided down? Would they more susceptible to crushing if they land on their sides? |
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| (741387) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 07:23:30 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Sat Feb 7 07:15:29 2009. No. They are not sealed. So the pressure of the water on the inside is the same as the pressure of the water on the outside. If there were a sealed air space inside the frame, it would experience pressure and could be crushed.Take my Scuba class and learn the mechanics of pressure! |
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| (741388) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 07:24:59 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. So what? The cars work better as artificial reefs when they are somewhat disintegrated. They create lots of small spaces for reef creatures to inhabit. |
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| (741391) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Feb 7 07:53:44 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. I wonder if they are actually talking about the PATH K cars. They would all look the same no matter which system provided them. |
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| (741394) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 7 08:30:17 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 07:24:59 2009. Excellent point.But if that's the case, who made the decision to stop the reefing program? Did a wildlife biologit object? Is it disguised anti-reeefing NIMBY of some kind? |
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| (741396) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by FLASH GORDON on Sat Feb 7 08:30:46 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. The flushing cars were so shot when they dumped them that if they lasted even a month they were lucky.R-32's should last a lot longer. Everybody should have expected this from the start. FLASH GORDON |
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| (741402) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by error46146 on Sat Feb 7 09:26:12 2009, in response to New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Fri Feb 6 18:05:49 2009. That's cause the 32s don't like new jersey |
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| (741409) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Gerry6309 on Sat Feb 7 09:42:48 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Feb 6 20:39:08 2009. For the Redbirds, it makes sense. For the R-32 to R-40 cars which have been reefed more recently, being mostly stainless steel, they should last a lot longer. |
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| (741420) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Feb 7 10:28:44 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 6 20:57:21 2009. ROTFLMAO |
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| (741429) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 11:12:42 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Feb 6 19:26:18 2009. Except the cars are mostly stainless, especially the R32's. Maybe the roofs on the St Louis cars are collapsing with the fiberglass helmets and ends chopped off. Never heard of this complaint with the Redbirds or PATH K cars. |
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| (741460) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 13:08:29 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 7 08:30:17 2009. That sounds like it is probably the case. |
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| (741461) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 13:08:50 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Train Dude on Fri Feb 6 20:57:21 2009. You hit the nail right on the head. |
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| (741500) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Sat Feb 7 15:50:27 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Feb 7 07:53:44 2009. That seems more likely. The R36 WFs placed off the Jersey Shore in 2003 are in good shape and intact. |
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| (741503) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Feb 7 16:36:43 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R42 4787 on Sat Feb 7 15:50:27 2009. Some may be relatively intact.Some are barely more than a foot tall. They were barely intact when sunk... |
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| (741509) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:31:25 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R30A on Sat Feb 7 16:36:43 2009. I believe I read that the ones that fell upside down collapsed almost immediately.The ones on their sides or right side up are okay. |
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| (741510) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:34:39 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 07:23:30 2009. But the ones that land upside down do have a more extreme weight on top of them than the bodies were designed to hold. Add the weight of the water to that, and corrosion, and the ones that fell upside down have been crushed. |
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| (741513) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:35:39 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Fri Feb 6 20:49:52 2009. You dont know much about marine life do you? |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Feb 7 19:40:04 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:35:39 2009. I don't think that he was in the marines. |
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| (741537) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Feb 7 19:45:33 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Train Dude on Sat Feb 7 19:40:04 2009. What branch was he in? Just a guess, but I think that was Salaam's son. |
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| (741543) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 20:15:42 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Train Dude on Sat Feb 7 19:40:04 2009. Heh. |
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| (741558) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat Feb 7 21:42:28 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:34:39 2009. SInce the roof is rounded, the likelyhood of the car rolling to the flat siding during the first round of heavy current would put that weight to other sources. Most of the dumped cars were found with the flooring embeded in the silt the way they fell in. If you look at videos of the actual dumping, any car that falls in sideways rights itself upright before settling in. Floors, crossmembers and girdering are where the bulk of the weight is. |
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| (741565) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 21:58:43 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 7 08:30:17 2009. Couldn’t tell from the article. But Cindy Zipf of Clean Ocean Action mounted a long, ultimately unsuccessful, campaign to keep the redbirds out of New Jersey’s Ocean based on a whole load of bogus environmental “concerns”.She obviously has never seen an artificial reef in her life. Maybe this is Cindy fighting a rearguard action behind the scenes. |
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| (741568) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 22:03:10 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 7 17:34:39 2009. If a car lands upside down and another car lands on top of it, it’s not unlikely that the bottom car will be damaged or crushed.But the weight of the water (ie the pressure) has nothing to do with the crushing. Because the pressure is equal all the way around. Human divers can go to multiple hundreds of feet (with significant advanced training) because they can equalize the pressure in the air spaces in their bodies to the surrounding ocean. In fact the impact of one car landing on top of another in the ocean is less than in air because: a) Water has much more resistance than air, so terminal velocity is much less. b) The weight of the cars is less in water because of Archimedes’ principle. |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Sat Feb 7 22:21:31 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 22:03:10 2009.  (Okay, Planck's law of blackbody radiation doesn't pertain here, but the sentiment's still valid...) |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 22:26:10 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by Subterranean Railway on Sat Feb 7 22:21:31 2009. With the corollary:It works that way even if you don’t understand it. |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 8 00:50:01 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 22:26:10 2009. Now, if you're able to provide an elegant explanation like that about subway cars in water, why do you have to sticj your foot in your mouth about other things (such as when a TA employee on an actual trial run through South Ferry showed your criticism of its design to be ignorant nonsense)? |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Sun Feb 8 01:05:12 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by heypaul on Sat Feb 7 07:15:29 2009. If it really is the R32-42 cars sunk last year that are heavily damaged, it once agai proves the R36s are tough motherfuckers-being able to remain durable once more. |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R30A on Sun Feb 8 01:06:24 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R42 4787 on Sun Feb 8 01:05:12 2009. No it doesnt.I have seen photos of R36s which are about 1 foot tall. |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Sun Feb 8 01:08:11 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R30A on Sun Feb 8 01:06:24 2009. Only some. Go NJScuba.net-many still good shape during in 2008. |
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Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Sun Feb 8 01:14:19 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by R42 4787 on Sun Feb 8 01:08:11 2009. If any case the K-cars are in much worse shape, being in several pieces:
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| (741689) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 8 03:02:40 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 8 00:50:01 2009. When that happens, I’ll admit it. I’m confidently looking forward to the capacity of South Ferry, measured in the number of trains per hour that it can handle, diminishing when the new station opens.I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. By the way, I learned the mathematics and physics that govern both of these situations when I was about 12. While designing a station and its engineering are beyond my means, understanding its limitations given the published characteristics of trains and switches doesn’t require anything that wasn’t taught to an English 12-year old in the 1960s. Of course, given the dross that American high school students are forced to wade through, I can understand that many of you never get to such simple facts and therefore have to confront Clarke’s third law. |
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Re: RonInBayside will take JohnL at his word |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 8 03:21:57 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 8 03:02:40 2009. "When that happens, I’ll admit it. "I'll take you at your word. Fair enough? "While designing a station and its engineering are beyond my means," Not entirely true given your knowledge of underwater fluid and gas behavior and the equipment involved. US grade and high school science education in general (there are always exceptions) sucks eggs. I have to concede that. Part of the problem, though, is we don't REQUIRE stidents to even take the subjects! Don't many school districts require just one year of math to graduate from high school? |
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Re: RonInBayside will take JohnL at his word |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 8 03:53:52 2009, in response to Re: RonInBayside will take JohnL at his word, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 8 03:21:57 2009. Unca Ron ... I suspect you might have missed out on the engineering joy of Clarke's three laws ... if you aren't already aware of them, the short trip to google will be amusing, I promise. :)BRAVO, John! Heh. |
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Re: RonInBayside will take JohnL at his word |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 8 04:01:29 2009, in response to Re: RonInBayside will take JohnL at his word, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 8 03:53:52 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_law |
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| (741745) | |
Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 8 11:14:29 2009, in response to Re: New Jersey Claims that Reefed Subway Cars Not Living Up to Expectations, posted by JohnL on Sat Feb 7 21:58:43 2009. Again, it's people like this that have absolutely NO idea what a reef is, and how they benefit marine life.Thank god for the reefs they sunk in Long Island Sound years back, as there are some really good reefs out there. One of the best Blackfishing sites is one where they sunk a few thousand tires, blackfish thrive in places like that. There's another where there's a railroad freight car. These people don't have a clue. |
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