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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 29 00:08:03 2009, in response to Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jan 29 00:07:02 2009. Could you rephrase your question? Not sure I understand. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jan 29 00:09:27 2009, in response to Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jan 29 00:07:02 2009. ??????? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 29 00:14:16 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 29 00:08:03 2009. He's probably talking about the bellmouths for the Queens super-express, which are visible as one heads eastbound in the 63 St tunnels on the F. I'm curious myself. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jan 29 00:18:20 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 29 00:14:16 2009. Yeah, but what does he think they're going to do with the ones on the F? There's no money. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 29 00:30:35 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jan 29 00:18:20 2009. They'll sit until there are plans and money to do something with them. The bellmouth at 2nd Av/63rd St has been there for decades waiting to be connected to something. Now that's happening. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 30 02:14:10 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 29 00:14:16 2009. I like how everyone thinks they were constructed on purpose...That's actually the few feet left over from the original tail tracks that extended east of 21st Queensbridge. When they hooked in 63rd st, it made more sense to have it join at that point. Since they could have use as bellmouths, of course they didn't fill them in. If you look out the RFW eastbound, the first 'bellmouth' is straight rail (if there were one) on the curve to the left. The second one is exactly one track width beyond that. In Ascii art: Before: ---------- ---------- After: -------//- -------/-- |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 30 02:25:54 2009, in response to Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jan 29 00:07:02 2009. Looks like others are confused by this and weren't around when everything got built. You're correct in that there was an upper level which was to be used for the "Queens Super Express" which would have taken over some LIRR route (maybe the one that goes past Shea?) or some other arrangement.When they did the 63 to Queens, it's my understanding that the construction work that was done to connect the BMT to the IND destroyed the original arrangements in some way that made that go away entirely as an option, bellmouths or not. But I *do* remember it being part of the original design ... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by JRice on Fri Jan 30 09:14:32 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 30 02:14:10 2009. Nope. The super express stub ends were extended on purpose during the 63rd St Connector and ESA plans include route protection so they are not obstructed if NYCT ever decides to build them. ESA once included some extension work, but costs eliminated them. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Jan 30 21:23:29 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 30 02:14:10 2009. That would mean "grade crossing" if extended?-w- |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Jan 30 21:27:49 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Jan 30 21:23:29 2009. More like "flat junction," but basically, yes. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 31 12:54:07 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by JRice on Fri Jan 30 09:14:32 2009. Eh,I don't mean to be a PITA but was any proof of that ever presented (wording from RFPs, schematics, etc)? The theory that they built it as stub ends made sense until someone (no idea who) said what I basically reiterated. Basically: -Why put two bellmouths eastbound, but nothing wesbound? The only explanation is that it would be an at-grade junction. -Why put a wall between the trackways if its purpose was to be an at-grade crossing? -Why engineer an at-grade crossing such that eastbound via normal express and westbound via super express foul each other, when the whole point of the super express is to increase tph? I *will* that they purposely engineered things to leave the extra feet for that purpose. But, to say they actually built it out that way, does not make sense. There are far better ways to have done the connection. My theory is also supported by the design of the walls in the eastbound trackway. It matches the walls you have all the way from 21st, versus the newer walls of the connection after the turn. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 12:59:22 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 31 12:54:07 2009. When putting in the bellmouth, they had no foggy clue as to what would be built in the future, where it would be built or where it would be run. They made a bellmouth. It if for later engineers to make something of it if they wish.EOS ROAR |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jan 31 16:28:33 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 31 12:54:07 2009. Does this help?http://images.nycsubway.org/logo/63rdconn.jpg |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Feb 1 16:02:24 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 12:59:22 2009. The bellmouths that were used for the Archer Ave subway were never intended for that purpose, but it didn't stop anyone from using them that way instead of building the Van Wyck Blvd subway. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Feb 2 14:59:09 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jan 31 16:28:33 2009. Thank you!!I have been looking for something like that... it was always a nagging thought in the back of my mind, which I can now let die. They really did do it that way on purpose.... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 2 21:42:50 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Feb 2 14:59:09 2009. It isn't clear from the drawing, but my impression was always that at least one of those bellmouths actually extended to a level below the current F tracks. In fact, the drawing shows four separate trackways apart from the F tracks. Perhaps two of those are the LIRR trackways that will connect to the lower level of the 63 St tunnel; again, not clear from the drawing. It's also kind of hard to tell from a passing F, especially if it doesn't have a railfan window. In any case, the super-express does not appear to be a serious project at this time. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 2 22:54:29 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 2 21:42:50 2009. The EASTBOUND TRACKWAY is hidden behind a wall.Its being studied now under the NYC 2030 QUEENS MOBILITY STUDY...check out MTA.INFO.. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:13:45 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 30 02:25:54 2009. As I recall, the lower level was to be LIRR from the main line and the upper level was to be Super Express from a captured Montauk Branch.NYMBY's kilt the super Express in that big transitless waste land in Queens. avid |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 3 11:14:07 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Feb 1 16:02:24 2009. This actually answers a long-standing question of mine as to when "they" made the cut into the QB IND for the Archer Ave line. It seems there were bellmouths for an expansion line right from the get-go.Does anyone know how far these bellmouths went before construction started on the Archer Ave. Line? |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 3 11:45:55 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:13:45 2009. The Super Express was going to use LIRR ROW above ground. It wasn't just NIMBY; it was also budget.Today, attitudes will be different. MTA is studying whether or not to expand service in various parts of Queens, including Hillside Av because of the new developments coming between 179 and 188 Streets. You will not see nearly as much NIMBY in the way, at least not in central Queens. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:49:43 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 3 11:14:07 2009. About as far as Hillside Avenue.Beyond that is the newer construction for Archer project. There are surface grates for an estimate on the southbound side of Van Wyke. avid |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:53:35 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 3 11:45:55 2009. Now that you mention it, yes, thats is right. It was to rejoin at Continental Ave.avid |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 3 12:19:49 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:49:43 2009. Thanks. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 11 22:30:06 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 3 11:14:07 2009. The Archer line uses the old Van Wyck Blvd subway stubs...built along with the main line..for the route to Rockaway Blvd..and would have been built FIRST[before the Hillside route] if Robert MOSES didn't get his way.The tunnels ran as far as a double crossover[about the size of a 10 car train Plus a little more] far along V/W Blvd... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Mar 11 23:31:01 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 30 02:25:54 2009. Uff, that'd be horrible if we lost the Port Washington branch. |
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| (755550) | |
Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Mar 11 23:42:44 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Mar 11 23:31:01 2009. Uff, that'd be horrible if we lost the Port Washington branch.Crappy seats and slow NYCTA speeds, but at minimum, 4 TPH off-peak to Port Washington. Too bad we can't do a joint NYCTA-LIRR service where Metropolitans and NYCTA R-Series fleets run on the same line with NYCTA dumping off at Bayside and the LIRR continuing to Port Washington. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 11 23:47:24 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Mar 11 23:42:44 2009. If you had more capacity at a western terminal, you could easily run more service on the Pt Washington Branch. It would probably be useful to switch to fare control at that point, and to work with better accelerating trainsets while adding a stop between Shea Stadium and Woodside. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Mar 12 00:26:15 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 11 23:47:24 2009. If you had more capacity at a western terminal, you could easily run more service on the Pt Washington BranchIIRC, isn't the controlling point of the line the single track section East of Great Neck? |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Mar 12 01:04:19 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Mar 12 00:26:15 2009. Ayup. Double-tracking that would mean widening the bridge (or replacing the bridge) between Great Neck and Manhasset and some private property taking... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:24:00 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Avid reader on Tue Feb 3 11:13:45 2009. I don't believe it was supposed to be on the Montauk Branch. All the maps I have seen of it show it parallel to the Queens Blvd line somewhere. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:26:31 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 11 23:47:24 2009. That probably will be possible once ESA opens up, which in turn will open some slots in Penn. That is some of the goals of this "larger than needed" project (as quoted).The ESA project will also open up some Penn Slots for reverse peak trains, the first step in that of course, as a third Mainline track is also needed to fully impliment that on some lines. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:27:45 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Mar 12 01:04:19 2009. Increased service is only really needed to about Great Neck though. The expense of the Manhasset viaduct double tracking would be prohibitive for the results. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Mar 12 07:44:06 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:27:45 2009. Yes, as GP38 Chris says, the real added traffic would be on the double-tracked portion of the line. My error, however, to not explicitly note that.It also means that you're talking about a new eastern terminal too. There is quite a lot of room between Bayside and Douglaston for that... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Mar 12 08:01:29 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Mar 12 07:44:06 2009. It also means that you're talking about a new eastern terminal too. There is quite a lot of room between Bayside and Douglaston for that...Or at least a yard facility. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 12 10:04:11 2009, in response to Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jan 29 00:07:02 2009. I think that's a great idea- provide a means for NYCT trains to get thru the yard and continue on...Unortunately, it's probably TOO good of an idea for MTA to implement. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 12 10:16:04 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 11 22:30:06 2009. Thanks...I'd thought they cut in the Archer tunnel in the 70s or 80s...now I realize it went quite far back- almost like Second Ave/Houston.And this was even intended to go online b/f Hillside...wow. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:02:50 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 11 23:47:24 2009. The only limiting factor to the Port Washington branch's capacity is the single track east of Great Neck. Not Penn Station. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:03:58 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:27:45 2009. That wouldn't have to be done. A passing siding near Plandome would allow most, if not all those Great Neck trains to run thru to Port Washington. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:06:01 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 07:26:31 2009. Speaking of reverse peak, can someone explain why the Hempstead branch gets 2 AM trains from Penn Station, about 20 minutes apart, but none from Long Beach or Far Rockaway? |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:10:21 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 3 11:14:07 2009. That junction which Archer Ave uses was there since day one. It was used as a storage area all the way up to 1988. You can clearly see where the 1930's era construction ends and the 1970's begins by the change in tunnel lighting from incandescent to flourescent. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 12 12:15:04 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:06:01 2009. Speaking of reverse peak, can someone explain why the Hempstead branch gets 2 AM trains from Penn Station, about 20 minutes apart, but none from Long Beach or Far Rockaway?Obvious guess: Hempstead is closer to Penn. So those trains can go out as reverse peak trains and come back in as rush hour trains. Whereas if they went as far as LB or FR it would be too late in the morning for them to be effective rush hour trains. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:19:05 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 12 12:15:04 2009. Travel times between Hempstead isn't significantly different than Far Rock or Long Beach. It's gotta be something else. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 12 12:25:36 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:06:01 2009. Well Far Rockaway is pretty easy....you need full length trains coming in and out of Penn at Rush hour (as many people use them to transfer too at Jamaica), so you can't have the shorter trains the Far Rockaway branch uses going into Penn. That doesn't explain Long Beach though, as I believe those stations can handle full length. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Mar 12 12:57:38 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:19:05 2009. Workers going out to diners to start frying eggs at 4AM? |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 12 15:46:30 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 12:06:01 2009. Dude, trying to make sense of the LIRR schedule will cause headache. Until a recent schedule change, weekend nights there was a Huntington train that hit Forest Hills and Kew Gardens departing NYP ~10:35PM, followed by a Babylon train hitting the same stops at ~10:41PM (can't remember exact time). The entire rest of the day, only Babylon branch trains stop there.Other oddity is the daily 2AM direct from Jamaica to Port Jefferson. Somehow they pull a diesel set out their ass on weekends when there is no corresponding inbound. Weekdays, I believe the inbound that becomes this set is the ~5:41 PM arrival in Jamaica. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Mar 12 15:49:00 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 12 15:46:30 2009. Don't forget those two weekday early afternoon Ronkonkoma trains or that Speonk train that stops at Kew Gardens. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 12 16:51:37 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Mar 12 15:49:00 2009. ....Speonk train that stops at Kew Gardens??? Wow... yup, 2737. I would imagine it's more for people from Montauk to get to the area, than to provide high capacity service for people in to the city...Though really, it kindof provides both, since anyone from that branch bound for Kew Gardens would be on that train, those seats would open up at KG for new boardings... |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 17:21:10 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 12 15:46:30 2009. I am still at a loss to explain why that morning diesel from Speonk stops at Kew Gardens. |
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Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 12 17:22:35 2009, in response to Re: Wondering about the LIRR's ESA Project, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Mar 12 16:51:37 2009. That question is asked repeatedly on the LIRR board at RR.net, to the point that moderators now lock threads asking about it. No one can give a decent answer. |
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