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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 6 20:26:31 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Neil Feldman on Fri Dec 5 17:32:02 2008.

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Eight Tracks?

I don think so.

CH-LL has THREE tracks in it, and there are an additional two spur tracks to the north that must be accessed from the south. That is five trains. Maybe some others could be laid up in the tunnel between the two. But eight yard tracks? No.

ROAR

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(716188)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 6 21:19:55 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 6 20:26:31 2008.

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The 2 tracks within the confines of Canal St station cannot hold full length 600 ft trains so they really can't be used for any practical storage purposes.

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(716189)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 6 21:23:13 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 6 20:26:31 2008.

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The 2 tracks within the confines of Canal St station cannot hold full length 600 ft trains so they really can't be used for any practical storage purposes.

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(716202)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Alex L. on Sat Dec 6 21:50:20 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 6 20:26:31 2008.

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CH-LL has THREE tracks in it, and there are an additional two spur tracks to the north that must be accessed from the south. That is five trains.

One of the three is not electrified. The remaining two can each hold three trains, allowing CHL to hold six trains.

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(716225)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MGL on Sat Dec 6 22:34:22 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 6 18:46:16 2008.

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Thanks

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(716226)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 6 22:35:24 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri Dec 5 12:35:17 2008.

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Our Father, who art in Control, Command be thy name. Thy trains shall run, thy passengers come, on els as it is underground. Give us this day our daily put-in, and forgive us our comforts, even as we forgive those who request comforts ahead of us. Lead us not down a diverging route, but deliver us from homeballs. For thine is the Railroad, and the RTO, and the Power Distribution, forever and ever. Amen.

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(716480)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by B1bus on Sun Dec 7 14:16:13 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 6 01:06:43 2008.

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Kind of like "EE broadway local" on straphangers.org..

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(716645)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 7 17:48:08 2008, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Alex L. on Sat Dec 6 21:50:20 2008.

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AFAIK all the tracks at C/Hall LL are electrified. At least they were when I worked there.

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(1499291)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Jan 8 12:03:33 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 6 18:46:16 2008.

Do you know the years for the N?

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(1499306)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by FtgreeneG on Tue Jan 8 12:53:50 2019, in response to Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by BusRider on Fri Dec 5 10:43:33 2008.

-A's starting at 59 usually starts at 207 Yd held in 72nd St spur until alotted time.
-A's ending Euclid -Pitkin Yd
-Yes Yd @ B116
-Dont think any G's go OOS at Court So (could be wrong)
-Concourse Yd or Middle tck north of Sta
-D W 4th / F King Hwy -CIY/Culver Yd
-Likely middle tck of Astoria line (not sure if any trains beging there?)
-R's starting Canal- City Hall Yd

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(1499308)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by FtgreeneG on Tue Jan 8 12:55:58 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 6 20:26:31 2008.

3 tcks City Hall Yd two of em are long enough to hold more than one train. The 2 Spurs north of those three tcks aren't long enough to hold a full train.

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(1499372)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 8 17:31:34 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by FtgreeneG on Tue Jan 8 12:55:58 2019.

The yard leads N/O C/Hall are definitely long enough to hold at least one full train each.

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(1499516)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by FtGreeneG on Wed Jan 9 16:38:38 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 8 17:31:34 2019.

really? Dont look like it but that's just me eyeballing it. Wonder why they don't lay anything up over there. If I remember I'll ask about it next time I'm at City Hall tower.

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(1499583)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Jan 10 10:14:54 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by FtGreeneG on Wed Jan 9 16:38:38 2019.

It is "Put-ins" and "Lay-ups" a pull up is something entirely different, but might be useful if you have no crew room.


ROAR

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(1499670)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 00:21:16 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by FtGreeneG on Wed Jan 9 16:38:38 2019.

When I come home on the R or N at night, I usually see trains laid up on those leads N/O City Hall station.

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(1499674)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by FtgreeneG on Fri Jan 11 00:58:37 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 00:21:16 2019.

I don't think we're talking about the same tracks. Im talking about the middle tcks in Canal St station. I know they lay up trains in City Hall lower all the way to just south of the switch south of Canal St.

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 11 07:28:29 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by FtGreeneG on Wed Jan 9 16:38:38 2019.

I'll state readily that I've never worked for transit, but again, eyeballing it, the tracks north of the switch that itself is north of City Hall (I do not know its lever #) do not look long enough to store a train, and in fact, about 12 years ago, the east one was shortened a little bit more when they build some sort of concrete block structure at the north end of Canal Street.

I ride the R and W through there often enough, and I have never, ever, seen a train on those tracks (north of the City Hall switch). The rails look old, and the dwarf signals look almost original. In fact, the tracks look almost unfinished!! There are no visible ties or ballast on them- just rough dirt, not even really tamped down, between the rails.

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(1499712)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jan 11 14:00:59 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 6 21:23:13 2008.

From a previous message:

"The 2 tracks within the confines of Canal St station cannot hold full length 600 ft trains so they really can't be used for any practical storage purposes."

In the 1970's the EE and RR trains were 8 cars in length, at 480 feet, which I believe were short enough to fit on those two former express tracks within the confines of the City Hall local R station.

Yes, the expansion to regular 10-cars of 600-foot trains renders those tracks not as useful as before.

Mike

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(1499748)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 19:13:13 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by FtgreeneG on Fri Jan 11 00:58:37 2019.

Now that makes sense but you didn’t originally specify the tracks IN Canal St station. The middle tracks in Canal St can only hold 8 ABs or 9 X 60 footers. When the platforms at Canal were extended, they had to be extended north due to the switches at the south end. Those tracks cannot be extended north due to the configuration of the subway infrastructure at the ends of the track which used to contain the old Canal St tower and the crew facilities.

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(1499752)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 19:28:47 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 11 07:28:29 2019.

It seems there was a bit of confusion as to which tracks are at issue. If you refer to the tracks north of City Hall, is is assumed that you mean only those between City hall and the S/E of Canal. The ones you are referring to are the middle tracks WITHIN the Canal St station itself and those are not long enough to store a 600ft train. See my other post on this subject for further explanation.

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(1499760)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 11 20:59:27 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Michael549 on Fri Jan 11 14:00:59 2019.

They were regularly used when a Whitehall St. terminating train was scheduled to lay-up at City Hall Yd after the AM rush.

Reverse the process for the PM rush.

Again, as long as it wasn't an R46. When all Broadway trains became 600', those tracks became useless...………...except for work trains or other miscellaneous equipment.

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(1499772)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jan 12 00:33:50 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 11 20:59:27 2019.

Agreed.

I meant to say:

"In the 1970's the EE and RR trains were 8 cars in length, at 480 feet, which I believe were short enough to fit on those two former express tracks within the confines of the CANAL STREET local R station."

I do realize that it is "ancient history" bringing up the EE and RR trains - but I do remember those kinds of trains were laid up on those express tracks, and not just under City Hall.

Then the TA used to give out those small folded train schedules which were a delight for figuring out the various subway lines.

Mike


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(1499804)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 12 13:25:18 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jan 11 20:59:27 2019.

Would it make any sense to run M train equipment on a few R trains so that they could terminate in lower Manhattan and layup in Canal Street for the day ?

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(1499807)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jan 12 13:57:57 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 12 13:25:18 2019.

Yes, I suppose you would have to send 2 overnight Essex lay-ups lite to 95, then terminate them at City Hall northbound and bring them right in. IDK if Bay Ridgers and Sunset Parkers would bitch about the short trains tho.


It would be good for the PM rush to send them out when there is a gap in service on the s/b R. I realize that it wouldn't do people much good if they were getting on north of City Hall. Announcements to ride a s/b W to City Hall would likely be ignored.


Lay them up again at Essex after that trip. Since other M's layup there they can swap trains the next morning if needed once a barn request or inspection on one of the 2 trains pops up.


Downside: you would have the same crew on each train from putin to layup. Transit no longer likes having jobs with so little road time. On the PM, since train is a gap train, it will be unpredictable as to what time the crew lays up at Essex, has lunch, then deadheads to Met to be available for a trip to CTL.

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(1499809)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 12 14:20:33 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jan 12 13:57:57 2019.

I was thinking of Forest Hills to Lower Manhattan ?

In any case, how could you lay up in Essex if the Jamaica-bound J's use the middle track while the M is running ?

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jan 12 14:46:18 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 12 14:20:33 2019.

Sorry, not IN Essex, but south of the station. It was done while they couldn't get to Met and they are still doing it now.

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(1499864)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 13 16:07:14 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 12 13:25:18 2019.

You can still lay up 600 Ft trains downtown, but just not in the Middle tks at Canal St. When the N first started running to Ctl, there was a bulletin issued requiring all Whitehall layups and put ins to be 8 X 60 footers since in the PM they had to change ends in the middle at Canal. A home signal was installed in the downtown lcl tk N/O Canal so that Whitehall put ins from C/Hall Yd could now enter Canal St on the S/B lcl tk and change ends in the station to get to Whitehall. After that 600 ft trains could be operated on Whitehall trains.

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 13 17:37:25 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 11 19:28:47 2019.

Yes, those are the tracks I'm talking about. They don't look construction was even finished...

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(1499890)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 13 20:21:18 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 13 17:37:25 2019.

Actually as originally intended, those tracks were supposed to go through as the Bway exp tks. They would dip down to the lower level at C/Hall and ramp up at the S/E and continue to Cortland St and the Montague tunnel. The upper level was to be a stub terminal with a diamond Xover at the N/E. The lower level at Canal was supposed to continue across town to West St. What ended up happening was that the Manny B tracks were finished before the tunnel was completed so a “temporary" ramp was built to bring the Manny B tks up to the Bway subway to get service from Bkln into Manhattan. When the tunnel and the lower portion of the Bway subway was completed rather than revert to the original plans, it was decided to ramp the upper level down to the present configuration and use the lower level as either a stub terminal of for storage which is what it is used for today. If yo can ever get down to the lower level on a fan trip for example, you can stand at the S/E of one of the lower level platforms and see where the original trackbed rises to meet the upper level. If the lower level had been built through, the middle tk would have been used to turn back trains much as the middle at Whitehall is today. Depending on the desired service pattern, trains coming from either Bkln or uptown could be shortlined there.

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(1499891)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 13 20:21:31 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 13 17:37:25 2019.

Actually as originally intended, those tracks were supposed to go through as the Bway exp tks. They would dip down to the lower level at C/Hall and ramp up at the S/E and continue to Cortland St and the Montague tunnel. The upper level was to be a stub terminal with a diamond Xover at the N/E. The lower level at Canal was supposed to continue across town to West St. What ended up happening was that the Manny B tracks were finished before the tunnel was completed so a “temporary" ramp was built to bring the Manny B tks up to the Bway subway to get service from Bkln into Manhattan. When the tunnel and the lower portion of the Bway subway was completed rather than revert to the original plans, it was decided to ramp the upper level down to the present configuration and use the lower level as either a stub terminal of for storage which is what it is used for today. If yo can ever get down to the lower level on a fan trip for example, you can stand at the S/E of one of the lower level platforms and see where the original trackbed rises to meet the upper level. If the lower level had been built through, the middle tk would have been used to turn back trains much as the middle at Whitehall is today. Depending on the desired service pattern, trains coming from either Bkln or uptown could be shortlined there.

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(1499903)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 13 22:40:01 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 13 20:21:31 2019.

Yes, thank you- I was aware of this bit of history. It's really too bad they didn't build all the way across town to West Street. That could have been a starting point for a 10th Avenue Subway- (the TAS, LOL) that I think would be very useful today.

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(1499955)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 13:38:25 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 13 22:40:01 2019.

True.
The Board of Transportation did plan for the 10th ave subway,with a crosstown branch linking up with the SAS VIA 34TH ST.

Too bad the Second System got put on hold permanently.
Always felt that the main routes should have been the 2nd ave Subway and 8th ave subway First...with branch lines..
Then the 6th and 10th built next.

61st..53rd,34th,Houston st,and Worth st and the loop connection between the 8th ave local and 2nd ave Subway between the Hudson Terminal to Grand st.

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(1499959)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 13:43:17 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 13:38:25 2019.

If so, why were no provisions made along 34th Street underneath the 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue stations there?

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(1499962)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 14 14:06:44 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 13 20:21:31 2019.

After getting across to West Street, what was the routing plan from there on ? Hoboken ?

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(1499969)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by LA Scott on Mon Jan 14 15:11:23 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 13:43:17 2019.

Imagine how deep another 34th/6th street station would have to be.

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(1499972)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Mon Jan 14 15:38:04 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by LA Scott on Mon Jan 14 15:11:23 2019.

As deep as 191st Street on the 1.

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(1499984)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 14 16:58:03 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 14 14:06:44 2019.

No. I seem to recall that West St was supposed to be a loop station although unlike the IRT’s loop stations it would have been on straight rail.

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(1499990)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:41:38 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 13:43:17 2019.

Actually...there is.
The reason why the station was built like that was to enable a transfer to the line.
6th ave also has a provisional area for the line.

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(1499991)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 14 18:45:21 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:41:38 2019.

Is that why the 34th/6th station can handle 12 car trains ?

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(1499992)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:50:09 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 14 18:45:21 2019.

Youll find those all over the IND.

Whats got me is the bellmouth at the West Fourth st Junction...
The 7th ave provision.

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(1499995)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 19:29:18 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:41:38 2019.

Where are these provisions then?

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(1499997)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 20:07:28 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 19:29:18 2019.

Hmmm...
Skeptical,huh..
Tell you what..its easy to spot.
Go to 34th Penn station lower levels..and youll see the space meant for the transfer...you wont miss it.

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(1500003)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 20:25:14 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 20:07:28 2019.

You have to be a tad bit more specific.

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(1500014)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 15 00:13:00 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:50:09 2019.

I haven’t really found any true bellmouth at W 4 St.

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(1500019)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by K. Trout on Tue Jan 15 01:04:20 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 18:50:09 2019.

If you're referring to the wide open spaces south of the platforms (especially the lower level platforms), I'm pretty sure that's just an artifact of the way the local tracks have to shift for the junction, no?

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(1500041)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Jan 15 10:08:33 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 14 20:25:14 2019.

Oh! I remember Tad's.. Great place to pick up a quick steak!.


ROAR

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(1500076)

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Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs

Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 15 15:31:00 2019, in response to Re: Put-Ins/Pull Outs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 14 13:38:25 2019.

I agree that more crosstown options are also needed- one plan would be to simply build the 10th Ave/42 street station on the 7.

A line under 34th would be nice- but man, would it be hard to build under all the other tunnels and infrastructure in the Herald Square area. I personally haven't seen any provisions in the 34th St Station- but if I get a chance, I'll go look.

As for 10th Ave- it's probably best to start simple. Start at Brookfield Place, follow West Street to 14th, with a transfer to the 7 (assuming that station is built), and tie into the IND somewhere around 135 Street. Service the trains at 207th- relocate the DSNY facilities up there if the yard must be expanded.

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