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| (675202) | |
Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008 This is the NYC's other New York terminal. It was the NY terminal for the New York, Ontario & Western RR as well. The trains at those platforms would soon travel through the tunnel that the HBLR currently uses to go as far as Tonnelle Avenue; these trains would go much further than that, serving places like Teaneck, Dumont, Orangeburg, West Haverstraw, Newburgh and many others.Don't seem to be too many photos of this terminal (which had no H&M/PATH connection, like CRRNJ Terminal), and they all seem to be taken from the hill in Union City. (This one is part of a personal website on the Carbondale PA school district website, a memorial for someone's father.)  |
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Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Aug 31 06:41:24 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. Of course, the real mistake was not building a massive bridge... |
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| (675229) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by FLASH GORDON on Sun Aug 31 08:53:35 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. I went there many times with my father and remember thesteam engiens in the forties and used the streetcar line a few times. Went there in the fifties but all the steam engines were gone. Takeing the ferry ride was a big thing to me at that time and we lived at 42nd street and 10th Ave so it was just a short walk to the ferry. FLASH GORDON |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (675242) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 11:02:13 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. Neat photo. Wonder which ocean liners are berthed across the river? |
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| (675244) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sun Aug 31 11:25:05 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. And it looks like next door in the freight yard they were set up for the barges for the freight cars.Sad...lots of cool stuff in that photo's gone. Jimmymc25 |
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| (675248) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:06:40 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. Isn't that where passanger service on the West Shore line terminated? How would Metro North look today had this line been connected to the rest of the NYV on the east side of the Hudson .... |
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| (675249) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:07:05 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. Isn't that where passanger service on the West Shore line terminated? How would Metro North look today had this line been connected to the rest of the NYC on the east side of the Hudson .... |
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| (675254) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:26:05 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 11:02:13 2008. Wonder which ocean liners are berthed across the river?The three stacker appears to be the orginal Queen Mary. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (675255) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:29:58 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:06:40 2008. I consider myself fortunate. My first non-subway railroad trip was on a New York Central train from Weehawken to Fort Montgomery. A few years ago I rode the HBLR through the Weehawken Tunnel. It was the first time that I had been through that tunnel in over 40 years.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (675259) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:46:26 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:29:58 2008. I haven't had the opportunity to do the northern legs of the HBLR, perhaps this week. |
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| (675268) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:54:29 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:26:05 2008. Dave: I will correct my earler post. The picture was taken sometime between September 1939 and February 1942. The three stacker to the right of the picture is the French Line's NORMANDIE tied up at Pier 88. (West 48 St). The ship to her left is the Cunard Line's QUEEN MARY at Pier 90. (West 50 St). Note that the QUEEN MARY is painted in wartime troopship gray for camaflouge. The NORMANDIE remained in New York after the outbreak of hostilities in World War II. After France was overun by the Germans the US took over the NORMANDIE and planed to convert her to a troopship called the LAFAYETTE. While undergoing this conversion a welder'torch ignited a fire. So much water was poured onto the ship that she turned over and sank at her pier. She made quite a sight laying on her side next to the West Side Highway. It took about a year to raise her and then she was scrapped.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (675272) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:57:40 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:54:29 2008. Some say the Mafia torched the NORMANDIE to hasten the idea that the docks in NYC were under threat of sabotage by German agents. I tend to believe it was accidental. |
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| (675277) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 13:17:44 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:57:40 2008. That's what I think. The ship only had a skeleton crew aboard and there was a great deal of construction debris laying around so on-board fire fighting capabilites were at a minimun. For the record the fireboats which responded to the blaze were the JAMES DUANE, JOHN J HARVEY, and FIREFIGHTER. The JOHN J HARVEY and FIREFIGHTER are still with us. The JOHN J HARVEY is in private hands and the FIREFIGHTER still holds down the assignment as Marine Company NO 9.Both of these boats did tremendous service on 9/11. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (675290) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:11:32 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Aug 31 06:41:24 2008. NIMBYism in NYC goes back quite far. The notion of building bridges across the Hudson to permit steam locos from NJ (or even LI), after the hate shown the steam els, was anathema. Notwithstanding, there were several proposals for bridges across the Hudson, intended for railroads . . . |
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| (675294) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:17:50 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 12:06:40 2008. That's the West Shore Line's terminal indeed.As for the latter idea, we can always look at the map below and imagine a tunnel going from Tonnele Avenue to the lower level of GCT instead of to the waterfront in Weehawken; probably be NJT running local to at least Orangeburg and Metro-North running express to West Haverstraw and possibly Newburgh . . .  Of course, if it was all up to NJT, the line would be two tracks. Instead, it was up to Conrail, and the line is now single-track through this location (Dumont NJ).  |
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| (675303) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 14:59:21 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:54:29 2008. Thanks, Larry. Great information! |
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| (675305) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 15:06:50 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. The NYC offered service from Weehawken to as far north as Albany. Commuter service ran to West Haverstraw, NY.What's on the site of the terminal now? |
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| (675307) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 15:13:49 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 15:06:50 2008. IINM, the Port Imperial ferry terminal (NY Waterway) either occupies the site, or is next to the site. Some people (don't know if they still do) complained about the HBLR station being too far away from the actual ferry terminal. |
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| (675319) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:01:38 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:17:50 2008. That's a great map. Thanks for posting it. NYC should have bridged the Hudson at some point so that it's West Shore line was integrated into the rest of it's passanger system. But from what I know of how the NYC got control of it, the NYC only wanted it to block the PRR from gaining a competing line to Albany and points north. And it did so quite corruptly. |
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| (675321) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:10:13 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:11:32 2008. Steam was banned south of 96th, so any idea of doing that was DOA long, long ago. Only tunnels and electric operation would allow more Hudson river crossings, but these sorts of things cost more than most railroads could afford. |
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| (675322) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 16:12:46 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:11:32 2008. I was of course referring to the 57th Street Bridge. I don't see how *twelve* tracks could ever have been needed though. |
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| (675327) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 16:21:01 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:01:38 2008. But from what I know of how the NYC got control of it, the NYC only wanted it to block the PRR from gaining a competing line to Albany and points north. And it did so quite corruptly.It would have fitted better with the Erie RR. |
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| (675330) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Aug 31 16:26:57 2008, in response to Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 02:32:28 2008. Thanks for sharing that, I like the way Port Imperial looks currently better with the NY Waterway terminal though. |
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| (675333) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:53:04 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 16:21:01 2008. Yeah, but if you know the financal history of that railroad ... |
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| (675345) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:24:08 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Aug 31 16:26:57 2008. Why? |
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| (675347) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:27:41 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:10:13 2008. It's a wonder that there were no Union Station company formed in order to allow several railroads from NJ to access one terminal in Manhattan. But on top of RR baron shenanigans and tunnel costs, there was also the cost of electrification, which the DL&W surmounted but the CNJ, Erie and B&O didn't (the Reading got as far as West Trenton). |
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| (675353) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 17:50:09 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 16:53:04 2008. Well, a railroad that couldn't even hold onto the NYSW is pretty lame, I admit... |
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| (675362) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:56:21 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 17:50:09 2008. Nobody can hold onto the NYSW. Not even the big boys that have trackage rights over its main line nowadays. |
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| (675365) | |
Re: Weehawken (NY Central) |
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Posted by timz2 on Sun Aug 31 17:58:45 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Dave on Sun Aug 31 15:06:50 2008. Just a parking lot at Weehawken now. (Don't forget to check the Bird's Eye View.) The lines in the pavement seem to align with the depot tracks. |
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| (675366) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 31 18:06:35 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:24:08 2008. Property tax income. |
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| (675367) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 18:07:11 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by WillD on Sun Aug 31 18:06:35 2008. Well, if he's a beneficiary, more power to him. |
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| (675372) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 18:41:28 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:56:21 2008. I hope NJ purchases it if it goes belly up to secure future commuter service.....HAHAHAHAHA |
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| (675373) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 18:45:48 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:27:41 2008. I wondered that myself. The DL&W, Erie, CNJ, Reading and LVRR should have gotten together to build one in Lower Manhattan. Unfortunatley, all would have had to have electrified service, and only the DL&W was by the mid 30's, when the Depression would have ceased any attempt. |
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Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by Qveensboro_Plaza on Sun Aug 31 20:38:49 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 12:54:29 2008. Actually, the liner to the left of the NORMANDIE is the QUEEN ELIZABETH, which made a secret maiden voyage to New York in 1940. The QUEEN ELIZABETH had two large smokestacks, as opposed to the QUEEN MARY's three. |
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Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 20:58:31 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by Qveensboro_Plaza on Sun Aug 31 20:38:49 2008. Queensboro: You're eyes might be better than mine.But you are right. If you see two stacks than its the QUEEN ELIZABETH, if there's three its the QUEEN MARY. Its not too well known but one of the QUEEN MARY's three stack was a dummy.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (675519) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Sep 1 00:41:38 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 17:27:41 2008. It's a wonder that there were no Union Station company formed in order to allow several railroads from NJ to access one terminal in ManhattanIIRC, one of my urban policy "textbooks" essentially alluded to the fact that the various railroads wouldn't work together was why the Port Authority could never work on getting the rail tunnel built as everybody wanted to control the railroad, but nobody wanted to share trackage rights. |
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| (675544) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 1 02:14:04 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Sep 1 00:41:38 2008. If the Port Authority had formed a Union Station subsidiary and actually started building tunnels and a station, the "build it and they will come" effect (not put into such words back then) would have appeared, and cooperation would suddenly have appeared out of nowhere. |
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Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Sep 1 18:34:39 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 31 14:17:50 2008. IIRC the New York Ontario & Western had trackage rights down the West Shore to reach this terminal. Most, if not all its traffic was purely passenger service to the Catskill resort area. Since I bring this up, did the Old Woman have any freight rights on this route? |
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| (675786) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Sep 1 19:49:28 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by kp5308 on Mon Sep 1 18:34:39 2008. Yes. The NYO&W was major hauler of milk and dairy products on the West Shore in the teens and twenties. |
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| (676629) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction |
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Posted by Bill West on Thu Sep 4 03:21:19 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal)Correction, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 31 20:58:31 2008. I agree the ship appears to have received wartime grey paint. If it is the Queen Mary, the window for the shot would be a pretty narrow. The possible timeline would be:March 1 1940 requisitioned, painting starts. Could the hull have been finished in a week? because... March 7, 1940 Queen Elizabeth arrives and would be in view on the north side of the pier. March 21, 1940 QM leaves while QE is still there. QM operates from Australia to Europe for the rest of 1940 and all of 1941. A drydocking had been planned for Singapore at the end of 1941 but when the Japanese invaded there on Dec 8, 1941 (same day as Pearl Harbor because of the dateline) the docking was moved to the US east coast February 9,1942 the Normandie burns and capsizes. mid February 1942 QM departs Boston for South Africa. So the only windows would be the week the painting was going on in March 1941, or if the Queen Mary stopped in New York on its way to Boston in January 1942. On the other hand if it is the Queen Elizabeth (my guess because of wide window strip for the grill cafe on the top aft deck) the timeline is: March 7, 1940 arrives and docks on the north side of the pier. March 21, 1940 QM leaves. ??, 1940 QE moved to the south side of pier 90. Nov 13, 1940 QE sails for South Africa. 1941 -shuttling between Australia and Europe, still on this service Dec 7 1941 and 2 months later when the Normandie was lost. So the window would be spring to fall of 1940. By the way, good find Olog. Bill |
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| (676633) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 4 04:21:29 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 31 18:41:28 2008. NYSW's passenger service was pretty interesting. They had some of the first "low-floor DMUs", built by ACF (called Motorailers). Those got supplemented (and replaced) by Budd RDCs. |
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| (676643) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by kp5308 on Thu Sep 4 07:35:29 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 4 04:21:29 2008. IIRC those Motorailers were notoriously poor performers. They were returned to ACF & later resold to Illinois Central. Nice pic & good thread..... |
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Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 4 12:14:52 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 4 04:21:29 2008. Where did the NYSW's commuter service terminate? Erie's terminal in Jersey City via the connection in Hawthorne? |
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| (676707) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Sep 4 12:21:07 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 4 12:14:52 2008. Edgewater?Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) (675294) |
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| (676757) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Bill West on Thu Sep 4 13:51:36 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Sep 4 12:21:07 2008. A shelterless wooden platform and a bus loop in the middle of a field at a place called Susquehanna Transfer. The busses went in via the Lincoln tunnel.Bill |
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| (676779) | |
NYS&W terminal (Re: Weehawken) |
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Posted by timz2 on Thu Sep 4 15:14:35 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 4 12:14:52 2008. Yes, NYS&W ran to Jersey City even after most of the Erie trains had moved over to Hoboken. As I recall they cut back to Susq Tfr around 1960. |
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| (676780) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 4 15:15:11 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 4 12:14:52 2008. Erie Terminal indeed. After the Erie RR completed its switch to Hoboken, the remaining NYSW passenger service ended at Susquehanna Transfer (former location underneath NJ 495), with the bus transfer. |
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| (676781) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 4 15:28:51 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Aug 31 16:21:01 2008. If the Erie had a bit more money, they might have ended up connecting with the NY Central at Yardsley or Dobbs Ferry; the intent of the original president was to bridge the Hudson from Piermont, where the railroad's original terminal was, back in 6-foot-gauge days.Instead, they ended up buying two railroads, those being the Paterson & Ramapo (Suffern to Paterson) and Paterson & Hudson River RR (to Jersey City, and once down the middle of Main Avenue in Passaic; see below). And oh yeah, converting to standard gauge.  |
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| (676783) | |
NYS&W route (Re: Weehawken) |
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Posted by timz2 on Thu Sep 4 15:33:30 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 4 12:14:52 2008. "Where did the NYSW's commuter service terminate? Erie's terminal in Jersey City via the connection in Hawthorne?"AFAIK NYS&W passenger trains never connected to the Erie at Hawthorne. |
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| (676788) | |
Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central) |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Sep 4 15:49:11 2008, in response to Re: Weehawken Terminal (NY Central), posted by Bill West on Thu Sep 4 13:51:36 2008. Which is exactly what the Northern Branch DMU proponents want to bring back at Tonnelle Ave instead of an HBLRT extension to Tenafly. |
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