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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 15:24:07 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by JerzDevl2000 on Sun Feb 18 15:21:12 2007. I'm utterly obsessed with Robert MosesGod help ye. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by JerzDevl2000 on Sun Feb 18 15:34:06 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 15:24:07 2007. I know I need help! I also didn't say that I necessarily approved or disapproved with what he did. I never saw the inside of the Coliseum or his office on Randall's Island, but the fact is that he got an amazing amount of work done, and even with many of his projects having been demolished or altered in recent years, there's still a lot to learn about planning, construction, politics, and conventional wisdom from his years in power. Just a show of hands - how many people here have actually read "The Power Broker" ? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 15:52:19 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 12:38:17 2007. You Want someone to tell you you're wrong? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (389198) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 16:02:41 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 07:57:16 2007. You're in denial. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 16:03:53 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 12:38:17 2007. Why don't you read the book first and learn about the man before expressing your thoughts?The book is irrelevant. The results of what he did are evident. And you can't stop me from judging on that starkest of basis. The man never drove a car, but was such a champion of roads. That is the height of hypocrisy. |
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| (389207) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 16:13:06 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 16:03:53 2007. You may be more correct than you know.Moses was DRUNK with Power..and that alone caused him to go crazy with some of his plans. Face it..if You could build a road to anywhere you wanted..without anyone standing in your way.. Or knockdown several blocks of homes to build a giant housing project that looks more like a fenced in ARMY BASE... Or slice a neighborhood in half with a giant expressway.. Or stop a much needed subway project just so "his never will be used expressway tunnel" can be built First... Or stop a very important subway route all together..so his road won't have competition. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:28:48 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 16:13:06 2007. Face it..if You could build a road to anywhere you wanted..without anyone standing in your way..I understand the horror, but WHERE do you do that in an already populated city, with roads built for 1800's transportation? Most cities don't just have room for 6 lane highways without buildings being lost. Or knockdown several blocks of homes to build a giant housing project that looks more like a fenced in ARMY BASE... Yes, that is not good, and today we know better, but back then people had an out with an old, in with the new attitude. Out with the old run down tenements, and in with the new "modern" highrise. Today we know better, and that those old slum buildings can be fixed up. That was not the mentality in the 40's or 50's, or even the 60's. Or slice a neighborhood in half with a giant expressway.. Yes, horrible, but how would all that Cross Bronx traffic traverse using Tremont Ave instead? Or stop a much needed subway project just so "his never will be used expressway tunnel" can be built First... Unfotunately just about NO city was expanding subways/transit in that era. NY is not unique in that, in fact, it's the norm. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 16:36:02 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:28:48 2007. Not so..San Fransico was building BART. Washington was building METRORAIL... Baltimore was building MTA METRORAIL... Boston was building its RED LINE EXTENTIONS..and rerouting it ORANGE LINE. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:36:29 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 16:02:41 2007. No I am not. Our city and suburbs would not be the great city ait is today without it's roads and bridges. I'm not saying everything is great, but I am certainly also not saying that we should have an 19th Century city either, when all other cities were expanding their road networks. The man did some awful things, and he did some wonderful things, it's not cut and dry. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:37:09 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 16:03:53 2007. The man never drove a car, but was such a champion of roads. That is the height of hypocrisy.What the hell difference does it make whether he drove or not? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:55:01 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 16:36:02 2007. The "golden age of transit building" was around 1880-1920's. The "golden age of road building" across the country was the 1930's-1950's or 60's.San Fransico was building BART. In the late 1960's, after the "golden age of road building" was coming to an end. I am talking about the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. By the 60's attitudes changed. Washington was building METRORAIL... The 1970's....long after the "golden age of road building". Metrorail opened in the 70's....long after Robert Moses left. NY had begun it's own projects planned by the late 60's too, and into the 70's, except the fiscal crisis killed that in the 70's. Baltimore was building MTA METRORAIL... Yeah, Baltimore tried to do that in the 60's too, just like New York, and that didn't open until 1983. They had trouble getting funding in the 60's and 70's too. Hmmmm, sounds a lot like NY...they tried to get it done in the 60's too, but it too until the late 80's to get it done (or a fraction, the Archer project). Boston was building its RED LINE EXTENTIONS..and rerouting it ORANGE LINE. I don't know too much about Boston's subway system, but know there was an extension that opened in 1975, and then again in the late 80's. I think a failed highway project also opened up a ROW (I don't know the story, but all the land was cleare, buildings torn down, etc, and then they moved the I-95 ROW somewhere else, and instead that already cleared ROW, instead of letting it go to waste was given to the subway. I am a little unclear on it. But all that being said, I am talking about 1930's (for projects not planned in the 20's), 40's and 50's saw a LARGE focus on roads, and not transit. By the 60's, cities came back to transit (including NY), and had some great plans, but by the 70's, most cities had trouble realizing those plans. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 17:35:00 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:55:01 2007. The "golden age of transit building" was around 1880-1920's. The "golden age of road building" across the country was the 1930's-1950's or 60'sSo we are that far removed from so-called "golden ages"? Are we in our leaden age of transportation . . . ? Road-building still takes precedence over rail. That's hurting us in a big way. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 18 17:38:18 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 17:35:00 2007. True. |
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| (389276) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 18:32:23 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 18 17:38:18 2007. But then again..can we call what we have Now "Balanced Transportation"?I don't know the "real" answer to that..but in some of the "circles" I travel in..BOTH[RAIL/ROAD] are used fairly well. New York is a beast all it's own..with all sort of options available... Other cities aren't so lucky..such as our own state capital...and surrounding areas. So what do we do with such populated area such as Albany that really needs rail..but is suck with a governing body that doesn't realize it? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 18:33:37 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 17:35:00 2007. Probably true, but what does this have to do with Robert Moses? For the most part, we get reconstruction of old roads, but not too many new roads, at least not like in the 30's-60's. |
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| (389279) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 18:36:11 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 18:32:23 2007. Totally understood, but what does that have to do with Robert Moses? In fact you said it yourself, NY is in much better shape transitwise than other cities. Can't blame all that on Moses too, or he the scapegoat for all failed tr4ansit projects everywhere?And look at a city like Los Angeles that developed after the golden age or transit building, and in the golden age of road building I mentioned earlier? |
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| (389285) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 18:48:26 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 18:36:11 2007. No..I wouldn't say he was the blame for all failed projects..but I WOULD say he started the trend for Rail giving way to Roads...All the other cities LOOKED to NY and saw what was happening HERE..from L.A to Boston! Not only that ..he OFFERED input/advise to MANY cities.. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:10:27 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 15:52:19 2007. I wouldn't mind if they can back up what they say. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 19:12:22 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:10:27 2007. You only back up what you say with rhetoric. Why would reading books on Robert Moses make a difference? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:14:30 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:28:48 2007. Yes, horrible, but how would all that Cross Bronx traffic traverse using Tremont Ave instead?,He could have slightly altered the route by running it through Crotona Park displacing 5,000 fewer (I forget if it was people or families), with no additional turns or travel times. It was suggested at the time but Moses wouldn't listen. |
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| (389296) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:18:33 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 16:13:06 2007. Moses was DRUNK with Power..and that alone caused him to go crazy with some of his plans.I wouldn't argue with anything you're saying. He wanted to build highways everywhere and don't forget many of his proposed highways were never even built. Yet I still believe had he not built many of them, we would be in worse shape today. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:31:43 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 18 18:48:26 2007. I WOULD say he started the trend for Rail giving way to Roads...You're probably right. But many of the roads were needed. It's too bad that we didn't build the roads before the housing, like we did with some of the elevated lines but that wasn't really possible in areas such as the Bronx which were already built up by the 1920s and before. |
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| (389303) | |
Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:34:23 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by JerzDevl2000 on Sun Feb 18 15:21:12 2007. I thought the Power Broker was one of the best books I ever read. A co-worker was begging me to read it when it first came out but its length prevented me from reading it. I finally read it two years ago. I heard that the LBJ books are not nearly as good or as readable. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Feb 18 19:47:59 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 19:12:22 2007. You only back up what you say with rhetoric.Not so. Most of what I know about him comes from the Power Broker. Why would reading books on Robert Moses make a difference? First of all, you don't know half of what he built. He was very influential upstate as well as downstate. He also advised other cities and countries. I think he even built something or advised in Brazil. You also don't know about his early history, how he started out with the best of intentions and was a champion of the common man before he got drunk with power. He was responsible for the first civil service tests to give people jobs based on their qualifications instead of who they knew. It wasn't until he realized that it doesn't matter how good your plans are if you have no power to get anything done that he began his quest for power. His personality was not that different from FDR, LaGuardia, or other politicians after power which is why he did not get along with these people. Moses was very smart and he deserves credit for that even if he didn't use his power the way we think he should have used it. Yes he was dispicable and hurt a lot of people needlessly, but he wasn't all bad. You may still hate him, but you will get a greater understanding of him if you know more about him. As Chris said, it's not all black and white. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Feb 18 20:27:31 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:55:01 2007. I don't know too much about Boston's subway system, but know there was an extension that opened in 1975, and then again in the late 80's. I think a failed highway project also opened up a ROW (I don't know the story, but all the land was cleare, buildings torn down, etc, and then they moved the I-95 ROW somewhere else, and instead that already cleared ROW, instead of letting it go to waste was given to the subway. I am a little unclear on it.That's correct. Originally, I-95 was planned to go through the center of Boston instead of following the Route 128 semicircular beltway as it does now. The RoW, now known as the Southwest Corridor, includes the MBTA Orange Line, Amtrak and MBTA Commuter Rail tracks as well as a linear park. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Dan on Mon Feb 19 12:04:58 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by JerzDevl2000 on Sun Feb 18 15:34:06 2007. Robert Caro (author of Power Broker) was on C-Span-2 last night. Moses was a contradiction in some ways. He built Jones Beach as a top-notch recreational location for city dwellers. But the same Moses built the Southern State Parkway with overpass clearances too low for the buses of the day. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Feb 19 14:08:02 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 18 03:23:18 2007. The new book Robert Moses and the Modern City: The Transformation of New York seems to refute your argument. In fact, much of the introduction takes several of Caro's points and argues against them, in a fairly convincing way, I think. (This book was just published and it is meant to accompany three exhibits on Moses currently going on at the Museum of the City of New York, the Queens Museum and one other place that I cannot think of right now).If you liked Caro's book, then this is a must-read for you ... plus, at the time I posted this, Amazon has a deal on both this book and Caro's book together - both for $47.00. That's a great deal. --Mark |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 19 14:58:57 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Feb 19 14:08:02 2007. Right, "seems to". Keep your head on straight, and bizarre arguments won't be so "convincing". What I experience when I get behind the wheel of a car and attempt to traverse NYC and LI is the proof of the pudding. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 19 18:29:07 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Feb 19 14:08:02 2007. The other place is Columbia University. If you go to the Museum of the City of New York and pay the $9 admission, you get free admission to the other two exhibits. |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 20 10:38:57 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 16:37:09 2007. Did you see the e-mail I sent you last week to your subchat e-mail address? |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 20 12:08:31 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 20 10:38:57 2007. Oh! That was you! I knew it had to be someone from this thread, but you didn't sign it "Brooklyn Bus".Actually, I couldn't open the attachment because I don't have Powerpoint on my laptop. I still have the email in my inbox, and was going to try it on another computer when I got a chance, but then forgot about it. I was going to try it on another computer, and then respond, but like I said, I forgot about it until now.... I just opened it on another computer, but it also didn't have Powerpoint, so I couldn't see it yet! |
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Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 20 12:17:20 2007, in response to Re: A Transit Robert Moses Guy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 20 12:08:31 2007. Just download Powerpoint Viewer from Microsoft for free from their website and you can view all powerpoint shows. |
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