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Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:18:21 2006 According to the Atlantic Yards DEIS, the closed underpass at the south end could be reopened, which is pretty cool. Anyone here ever use it back when it was open? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:20:14 2006, in response to Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:18:21 2006. Sorry, forgot to add that you'd want to look at the last three files in that directory. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 11:02:07 2006, in response to Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:18:21 2006. Here at Fans For Fair Play, we're transit buffs too.Cred aside, though, we're not happy about Ratner's use of this tunnel. It would funnel fans from the LIRR and Atlantic/Pacific Street platforms directly into Ratner's arena -- bypassing local businesses in favor of Ratner's preferred chain box-stores and arena concessions. Use of the tunnel would also reaffirm Ratner's skycrapers as an island unto themselves, failing the notion of linking Fort Greene and Prospect Heights. Much like riders on the old Train to the Plane, who avoided exposure to nearly all of Brooklyn (save the Jay Street station), visitors to Brooklyn would never have to walk our streets. Instead, they would be hermetically whisked from the station into Ratner's arena and towers. Ratner's project would be a disaster on so many levels. Transit is one of them. Though its location -- across the street from the Atlantic Avenue hub -- is touted as perfect for a development this huge, it's anything but. As a lot of you know, the Atlantic/Pacific subway station just underwent a rehab project lasting years. It was all done with no knowledge of Ratner's 16 skyscrapers. The station is already dangerously crowded. The current rehab on the LIRR station, same thing -- no planning for the Atlantic Yards project. In addition (as you also know), the Atlantic/Pacific station is a horizontal hub, not a vertical terminus. It's designed for transfers, not disembarkations. Using Ratner's logic, the best place in Manhattan to build a skyscraper complex would be atop the West 4th Street station, with all those lines passing beneath. The LIRR station is a vertical point, but most of the crowds heading to the arena would be straphangers, not suburban commuters. I'd like to see the old tunnel, sure. But not as part of Ratner's terrible project. Scott Turner Fans For Fair Play |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:34:35 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 11:02:07 2006. Wow, how did you find my post so fast? Did you sign up just to reply to it? Or were you already a member here? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 11:39:03 2006, in response to Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:18:21 2006. The existing staircases and platform-level passages are too narrow to support the crowds coming in and out.The entire south end of the IRT lower level must be redone. At least one staircase is still usable at the S/E corner of Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues (in front of the abandoned warehouse), because I saw this rare find unearthed by the Schiavone (the contractor working on th Atlantic/Pacific complex) Construction company at the time they were renovating the complex. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:46:05 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 11:39:03 2006. That's nice but that's not what I asked about. I know all about the plans from reading the DEIS. So not only have you resorted to making unwarranted personal attacks, you also lack reading comprehension. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 30 14:11:21 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:46:05 2006. 
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 14:11:25 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:34:35 2006. I'm a subway buff that, with all the other stuff happening in the world, hasn't been to this site before. I'm sorry I didn't know about it.I heard about your post via NoLandGrab.org, and did indeed sign up in order to respond. Now that I've signed up, though, I'll come here every day. Just to be clear, it's always initial good news when old subway infrastructure can once again see the light. New York's subway system, disfunctional as it can be, is an absolute treasure. It should be maintained and caressed, but sadly, the funding isn't there for that. Never mind restoration, how about simple maintenance? I'm sorry the MTA has thrown its lot in with Ratner -- they've lost hundreds of millions of dollars by grating FCR -- or now, FCE -- rights to develop the Vanderbilt Yards rather than a competing bid that was initially worth three times as much. At any rate, here I am. Scott FFFP |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 14:19:12 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:46:05 2006. I was answering the first part of the question, which was the issue with the current layout of the Atlantic/IRT platforms and the poor egress at this end. Mr. Captain Obvious, I cannot answer the second question because I was not around when they closed the south end some decades ago.And since you could have told me in a more polite way that I was not giving you the correct answer, bro could you please. . . 
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 14:26:02 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 14:19:12 2006. I was answering the first part of the question, which was the issue with the current layout of the Atlantic/IRT platforms and the poor egress at this end.I only asked one question in my post...and it wasn't about that. I cannot answer the second question because I was not around when they closed the south end some decades ago. If you knew the exact or approximate time of when it closed, that would be interested to know. bro could you please. . No. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 14:50:45 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 14:26:02 2006. I raised a pressing issue that has to be addressed.If you take a look at the abandoned side of the 4/5 middle platform as well as the southbound 2/3 side, you will see there is not much width to the only staircase, nor there is enough room to access that staircase when a large crowd pours out of a southbound train. The local platform side is a bit wider than the epxress platform but is still narrow for future use once Atlantic Yards is complete. As for your question about when it was closed, I don't know. Based on the condition of the warehouse (this side of the block has been neglected for the many years I've lived in Brooklyn.), it's difficult to draw any conclusions. This side is the 8 car extension but not the 1950s/60's entension to ten cars, the latter extension is at the north end. I'd rather not take any guesses on when this side is closed, the same goes for the closed south end of the 7th Ave/BMT Brighton station. If you still like to be anal about it, go ahead. At least I responded with a repsectful answer, even though it didn't answer your question. Perhaps Bill Newkirk or someone else might know. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Aug 30 15:13:21 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Aug 30 14:19:12 2006. The girl on the right pointing her finger is cute... |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Aug 30 17:43:06 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 11:02:07 2006. It would funnel fans from the LIRR and Atlantic/Pacific Street platforms directly into Ratner's arena -- bypassing local businesses in favor of Ratner's preferred chain box-stores and arena concessions.Umm, what local businesses? The Vitamin Shoppe? Dunkin' Donuts/Baskin Robbins? PC Richard & Son? Or the already existing chain box-stores in the Atlantic Terminal/Center mall? Much like riders on the old Train to the Plane, who avoided exposure to nearly all of Brooklyn (save the Jay Street station), visitors to Brooklyn would never have to walk our streets. Instead, they would be hermetically whisked from the station into Ratner's arena and towers. What streets would they be prevented from walking? Fourth Avenue? Atlantic Avenue? Not much to see there. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Aug 31 00:06:43 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 11:46:05 2006. Where the hell was the personal attack? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Thu Aug 31 00:59:55 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Aug 30 17:43:06 2006. You don't get around this neighborhood much, do you, PA? I mean, if Fourth Ave and Atlantic are your only reference points for local small-businesses.Prospect Heights, Fort Greene and Park Slope all have loads of bars, restaurants and shops within walking distance of Ratner's hoped-for arena. Detraining onto the streets peaks visitors' curiosities -- or they've been told "hey, walk a few blocks and try this joint." That's what people in cities do -- walk a few blocks and find a great place to eat, drink or hang out. In the suburbs, people drive to the game, eat inside the arena, and drive home. Ratner's entire point of reference is to bring the suburban experince to Brooklyn. In the '60s, my mom -- a big Rangers fan -- used to walk us a ways past the old Garden at 50th and 8th to get pre-game knishes. A co-worker walked even further, to Smith's at 33th and 8th. One of the biggest myths about new stadiums and arenas is that they're either "reinvigorate" a formerly destitute area, or they'll go hand-in-hand with an existing community. Ratner's not even trying to make either argument. Rather, he wants people to avoid surface Brooklyn altogether and just exist inside Frank Gehry's towers. Talk about hermetically sealed... |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Aug 31 01:12:15 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Scott at FFFP on Thu Aug 31 00:59:55 2006. I passed through the 4th/Atlantic area earlier today and that's where I got my observations from. I happen to live in Cobble Hill and pass through the aforementioned intersection frequently, and I am definitely familiar with the general area.Where are these establishments you speak of? Atlantic Avenue is dead, 4th Avenue is dead, and so is Flatbush north of Hanson Place. There are a few on Lafayette Avenue, but the largest concentration is about 10 blocks down 5th Avenue, a long walk from the proposed site. To be fair, there are a few on Flatbush a bit closer to the site, but that street looks a bit scraggly in places which has the potential to deter would-be customers. And why would modern-day people, especially those from out of town, go on a 10-block walk from a stadium just to find something to eat? It's not the 60s anymore. This stadium will naturally bring about a large suburban contingent who'd just get in the car and go to Applebee's instead. This stadium can't "reinvigorate" the area because there's no "area" to begin with, and there's certainly not a community. If a mixed-use community (including restaurants, shops etc.) were built over the yards, I'd have no problem with that. I do have a problem the fact that it's planned to be nothing but office towers. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Aug 31 04:07:08 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by italianstallion on Thu Aug 31 00:06:43 2006. in his mind, like always. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Thu Aug 31 16:21:09 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Aug 31 01:12:15 2006. I agree with you about building mixed-use over the Vanderbilt Yards -- it's what all the groups fighting Ratner's project are advocating. Both the Unity Plan and the Extell bid extolled these ideas.I guess the whole point is that the mayor and the borough president, for all their bluster, actively discourage the Jane Jacobs ideal of vibrant street life by champioining Ratnerian superblocks. There are places you might have missed. On Sixth Ave between Flatbush and Dean are a run of small eateries. Flatbush Ave has Japanese, Chinese and coffee shops within a few blocks. Bergen has small joints. The classic dive bar O'Connors could service fans on 5th Avenue just a block west of Flatbush. Just a couple blocks into Fort Greene are places, only as far as Fulton Ave. There are eateries and bars much closer than 10 blocks along 5th Avenue. And of course, Freddy's, which would be the perfect pre- and post-game bar, would be destroyed to make way for the towers. The MTA's discouragement of lunch counters and mom'n'pop stores inside the subway system hurts too. Even the Atlantic/Pacific Station itself could support small, non-chain joints that fans could stop at before entering the arena and being forced to overpay for bland concession food and $8 cups of beer. The point is, all around the footprint, small places have been opening -- except for the footprint itself, where Ratner has stunted the growth enjoyed by the surrounding community. Bloomberg and Markowitz have been silent on small-business growth around the Atlantic Yards development. Your contention that "it's not the '60s anymore" is true, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the city encourages Applebees and underground passageways, then yes, that's all suburban visitors will frequent. And while you're right that suburbanites might prove unadventurous, we'll guarantee it by offering them no other choice. There are suburban car-borne fans who frequent the local joints around Wrigley Field, Fenway Park, Yankee Stadium. The fact is, Ratner and Bloomberg aren't interested in sharing fans with the surrounding communities. It would be one thing if Ratner were paying for all this himself. But the city and state are handing over at least $1.5 billion in public funds -- with precious few jobs and affordable housing units to show for it. For that, his national chain restaurants shouldn't get all the business. Markowitz in particular has been shameful in this process. For a fella who oozes "Brooklyn" from every pore, his refusal to craft policy to create small-business opportunities in and around the footprint, should this money-hemhorraging colossus ever gets built, is the height of hypocrisy. Small-businesses hire more people in America than big chains. Bloomberg and Ratner could care less. As for whether there's actually an "area," the 1,000 people who've been displaced from their homes and jobs in the footprint think there was something there. The surrounding streets and businesses think there's something there. The neighborhoods that built themselves up without the subsidies and sweetheart deals Ratner gets think there's something there. What looks empty there is all Ratner's doing -- the buildings he's emptied out, the terrible rarely-used Atlantic Center mall, and his refusal to plan with the all the communities affected. Had the footprint been allowed to keep pace with the rest of organically developing Prospect Heights and Fort Greene, there'd be plenty to be seen from Atlantic Avenue besides the flickering lights of Ratner's malls. You make good points, Port Authority. I wish Ratner, Bloomberg, Pataki and Markowitz and the MTA paid as close attention as you do. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Aug 31 22:20:42 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 11:02:07 2006. A direct subway connection to the Ratner development will encourage the use of the subway. That's just common sense. Look at Rockefeller Center for another good example of a direct connection to office buildings. I still think that most Nets fans will drive there causing huge traffic back-ups. I don't seen Nets fans from Bay Ridge or Sheepshead Bay taking the subway there with their kids in tow.The triangular intersection of Flatbush Ave, Atlantic Ave & 4th Avenue has been a disaster for 40 years. The arena will make it worse. I thought most of the office space was dropped from the project because Ratner realized he coudn't compete with Jersey City and Hoboken on rents. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Thu Aug 31 22:58:57 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Dan on Thu Aug 31 22:20:42 2006. Some good points, Dan.Ratner dropped some of the office space not because of competeing commercial rents from across the river, but to ad more units of luxury housing. That's the only way he'll be able to make money. Ratner has already admitted in public papers that the arena will be a money loser. (Ratner hopes to stage 270 events a year, more than five a week -- and it would still lose money). By removing the office space, Ratner's promises of 10,000 jobs have been slashed to somewhere between 2,200 and 3,800 -- Ratner's numbers do fluctuate. As for encouraging subway use, surely more people would ride the trains. But as everyone here knows, the recently rehab on the Atlantic/Pacific Station was completed with no knowledge of or planning for the Atlantic Yards. It's a horizontal transfer point, not a vertical terminus (not for the subway lines, only the LIRR). In other words, if Ratner's skyscrapers and arena are built, Atlantic/Pacific will be a claustrophobic, dangerous nightmare. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 1 08:19:51 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Dan on Thu Aug 31 22:20:42 2006. Can you imagine how that area would look now if the Dodgers had built their new ballpark there instead of Los Angeles? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Scott at FFFP on Fri Sep 1 18:14:15 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 1 08:19:51 2006. Might be great...though at the time, O'Malley was advocating a Buckminster Fuller geodesic dome that could hold 100,000 people.(Possibly a ruse to mess with everyone, since he might've already decided to move to L.A.) By the way, it's a common Ratner myth that the arena would be on the same location as where O'Malley wanted to build. O'Malley's spot was across the street. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Sir Ray on Fri Sep 1 19:45:25 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Aug 31 01:12:15 2006. >>This stadium can't "reinvigorate" the area because there's no "area" to begin with, and there's certainly not a community. If a mixed-use community (including restaurants, shops etc.) were built over the yards, I'd have no problem with that. I do have a problem the fact that it's planned to be nothing but office towers.Wha...? Over 6800 units of housing are planned. From the Atlantic Yards site: http://www.atlanticyards.com/html/benefits/housing.html (I think these are the new numbers after the project scaledown earlier this year, but I am not entirely certain). |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Sep 1 23:03:31 2006, in response to Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 30 00:18:21 2006. The underpass was supposed to be opened as part of the Atlantic Avenue Rehab. What happened? Too expensive? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Sep 2 22:36:49 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Sep 1 23:03:31 2006. I was not aware of that. Do you have PROFF of it? |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Sep 3 21:55:33 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Sep 2 22:36:49 2006. I don't have proof but I remember reading it when they originally announced the plans to rehab the station I think in the 80's before it was delayed for a number of years and moved into the next capital plan. It must have been removed because of escalating costs. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by J trainloco on Sun Sep 3 22:08:29 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by Scott at FFFP on Wed Aug 30 11:02:07 2006. Oooh! An anti-arena advocate! I'm just salivating at this!Use of the tunnel would also reaffirm Ratner's skycrapers as an island unto themselves, failing the notion of linking Fort Greene and Prospect Heights. Much like riders on the old Train to the Plane, who avoided exposure to nearly all of Brooklyn (save the Jay Street station), visitors to Brooklyn would never have to walk our streets. Instead, they would be hermetically whisked from the station into Ratner's arena and towers. Most of the businesses you've mentioned are out of the way anyways. Even if they do come up to the surface, they won't be going by these shops. So, the point is moot either way. Ratner's project would be a disaster on so many levels. Transit is one of them. Though its location -- across the street from the Atlantic Avenue hub -- is touted as perfect for a development this huge, it's anything but. As a lot of you know, the Atlantic/Pacific subway station just underwent a rehab project lasting years. It was all done with no knowledge of Ratner's 16 skyscrapers. The station is already dangerously crowded. The current rehab on the LIRR station, same thing -- no planning for the Atlantic Yards project. In addition (as you also know), the Atlantic/Pacific station is a horizontal hub, not a vertical terminus. It's designed for transfers, not disembarkations. Using Ratner's logic, the best place in Manhattan to build a skyscraper complex would be atop the West 4th Street station, with all those lines passing beneath. The LIRR station is a vertical point, but most of the crowds heading to the arena would be straphangers, not suburban commuters. That is wrong on so many levels. Though Atlantic-Pacific is a transfer complex, it's design lends to excellent street access. The number of platforms on the IRT at atlantic is remniscient of Penn Station on the West Side IRT and IND lines: 3 platforms instead of 2 help to ease crowding. And the convergence of lines in this area (every line in brooklyn passes though the area, except for the L and J trains) means that access is easy for people both going to and coming from the complex. Ratner's Atlantic Yards project may have some flaws. But it's not the boondoggle that selfish brooklynites are making it out to be. |
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Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 4 08:21:49 2006, in response to Re: Reopening old underpasses - Atlantic Av IRT, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Sep 3 21:55:33 2006. Ok, thanks. That makes sense. |
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