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| Re: CBTC to the System (246542) | |
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| (246743) | |
Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 27 21:11:40 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:07:56 2006. 75 MPH is "way over" 70 MPH? They can't go any faster than that (John, I know your response to this but for all intents and purposes, let's go with 75 as our maximum speed).Key point you are missing though is that PATCO, WMATA, and BART all use ATO. They are also relatively new systems. The MFL uses CBTC if I am not mistaken and the trains are controlled manually. They also don't go significantly faster than a New York City subway train's stop speed in theory. It helps when your rail line is practically straight and your trains are much light and small. The MFL meets all of this criteria, New York does not. Even with CBTC, New York's subways will not be running much faster than they do today, if at all. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:14:37 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 19:48:51 2006. Wrong. CBTC has nothing to do with who is operating the train. CBTC is a signal (control) system. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:27:21 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by mambomta on Thu Apr 27 21:08:31 2006. 
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:29:12 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:14:37 2006. Yes. The trains are controlled by signals, which are technically computers. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 27 21:31:59 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:29:12 2006. Do you tell people you are from Washington, DC and then try to convince them that it is a 100% accurate statement? |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:32:38 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:14:37 2006. MY POINT IS THAT WITH BOTH CBTC AND ATO, THE TRAINS ARE OPERATED BY COMPUTERS. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING F**K ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT THEY ARE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THAT THEY ARE BOTH SYSTEMS IN WHICH TRAIN OPERATORS DO NOT DRIVE THE TRAINS.Note to David of Broadway: I am NOT mad at you. I am not mad at anybody. I am simply frustrated that no one seems to understand my point i.e. that if computers operated the trains, the trains could go faster. No accidents to worry about, because no people will be driving the trains, so the trains can go fast again. |
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I apologize for acting up Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:34:21 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:32:38 2006. I sincerely apologize for getting angry. But I am frustrated because people just aren't comprehending the point I'm trying to make the way I intend for them to. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Apr 27 21:44:24 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by mambomta on Thu Apr 27 21:08:31 2006. Obviously Knot. |
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Re: I apologize for acting up Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Apr 27 21:49:57 2006, in response to I apologize for acting up Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:34:21 2006. I understood what you were *trying* to say.The LION thinks that it was obvious. But this is a board of railfans, which *means* a board of nit-pickers. Regardless of what you were saying it was a nest full of nits ready for picking. These terms have very precice technical meanings. So you *might* just have said "Gee, I think computer operated trains would be faster." NOBODY could have argued or even picked nits with that statement. And you would have been 100% correct. But CBTC, ATO, OPTO etc &ct all have precice meanings, and your usage did not match the precision required thereof. So Take a Lesson from your LION. Use your words accurately and you will go far. Speak like a schlamiel and you will get your butt kicked. ROAR |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:50:51 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:29:12 2006. Operation and control are distinct components of the system.CBTC is a control system, not an operation system. Anybody -- human or computer -- can be operating a train under CBTC. Anybody -- human or computer -- can be operating a train without CBTC as well. I rode one of the first CBTC test trains on the L. CBTC was running. A human was operating the train. There's no contradiction here. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:59:01 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:32:38 2006. WRONG.CBTC has nothing to do with who is operating the trains. Nothing whatsoever. ATO has everything to do with who is operating the trains. Entirely everything. CBTC and ATO are not different sorts of "SYSTEMS IN WHICH TRAIN OPERATORS DO NOT DRIVE THE TRAINS." ATO is a general term which refers to trains without human operators (regardless of what signal system happens to be in use). CBTC is one particular sort of signal system that can be used with or without ATO. Perhaps people would have an easier time understanding your point if you didn't act like you're an expert on everything while refusing to accept basic corrections from others. CBTC is not what you think it is. It has nothing to do with what you think it is. What you think CBTC is is merely one variety of ATO. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Apr 27 21:59:21 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:07:56 2006. LIRR is NOT operated by computer, and they go even faster.Accela is NOT operated by computer, and it goes even faster still. The computer is not what makes the trains go fast. The motors do that. But truly a good computer control system can improve the performance of the subway. I do not think that very much if any of the present NYCT system will ever be *operated* by computers, though certainly computer controled signaling is already here and being tested. Ergo : Computer Control ≠ trenes rapidos ROAR |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Apr 27 22:00:49 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 27 21:11:40 2006. I agree. They will not run faster. But the may be able to run more frequently.ROAR |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Thu Apr 27 22:01:09 2006, in response to Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Bernie Goetz on Thu Apr 27 14:30:38 2006. If you want an express train that HAULS ASS LIKE IT'S ON FIRE, then come to Philly and ride the Broad St Express. That does 60 [yes, 60 mph] between Girard and Erie, and between Erie and Olney, operated manually to boot.Check out this video for some proof: The only drawback, is that it runs on weekdays only [6am to 6pm]. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Apr 27 22:02:58 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by RiverLINE3501 on Thu Apr 27 22:01:09 2006. 60 is it? I have been on trains where it gets close to 65 (and some may have seen the BSS express trains go faster). |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 22:14:06 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by RiverLINE3501 on Thu Apr 27 22:01:09 2006. 60? Bah. Ride the WMATA Metro inbound between Bethesda and Friendship Heights. That stretch PWNS everything. No subway train goes faster anywhere. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 27 22:16:35 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 22:14:06 2006. You haven't been to San Francisco then... |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Apr 27 22:33:43 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Apr 27 21:10:13 2006. I haven't taken the Blue and Orange lines in a while, but the Blue Line did go relatively fast between Airport and Maverick. And the Green's Riverside branch is nice, but the rest of the Green Line is very slow.The Red Line is nice as well, but the increasing number of "red dot" zones subtract from the ride. I don't take the Red Line to visit my grandparents in Quincy anymore - I take the Commuter Rail. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Thu Apr 27 22:39:48 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 21:50:51 2006. Anybody -- human or computer -- can be operating a train under CBTC.What about aminals? |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Mike W. on Thu Apr 27 22:48:14 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Market-Frankford on Thu Apr 27 17:49:44 2006. The Toronto subway is not slow.Perhaps not slow, but I'll tell you this...after spending last Thursday-Tuesday riding a _hell_ of a lot of trains in NYC, I rode to work on a T-1 this morning and it sure seems slower. It is definitely a smoother ride here, and that may reduce the sensation of speed. The acceleration/braking of your trains is far more intense - I'm able to drink a tea while standing in the middle of the car not holding onto anything & not spill it all over myself here. Don't think that would happen down there! |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Apr 27 23:10:13 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:27:21 2006. Of course you do. You're getting all worked up over it. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Apr 27 23:34:56 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Thu Apr 27 22:39:48 2006.  |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 23:41:37 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Thu Apr 27 22:39:48 2006. Aminals too. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Sa-Ceu! on Thu Apr 27 23:49:20 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 27 21:07:10 2006. You really need to get off his back. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by mambomta on Thu Apr 27 23:52:54 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 21:27:21 2006. Typical response when you're proven wrong. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 28 00:04:08 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Sa-Ceu! on Thu Apr 27 23:49:20 2006. But his whole premise is wrong. Just because computers = fast in other cities, it doesn't mean it will be true in NYC. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Apr 28 00:05:17 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Sa-Ceu! on Thu Apr 27 23:49:20 2006. Look, if he has a valid point, I will accept it. What I can't do is read something, interpret what he says, and then be told I am being a jerk because I didn't interpret what he wrote the way he wanted me to, even though what he wrote isn't what he really meant. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Apr 28 00:35:32 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 27 16:06:05 2006. It depends. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Apr 28 00:36:19 2006, in response to Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Bernie Goetz on Thu Apr 27 14:30:38 2006. Whatever Bernard wants, Bernard gets. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Apr 28 01:03:47 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Apr 27 20:45:40 2006. They DO ask I know of a few who got hired with criminal records,felons i dont know if they was or not. You better tell em though because when they do that background check(and they WILL) and find out you lied to them they will pull you out of the job and fire you on the spot. I know this has happened to a few who got hired from my group. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Goumba Tony on Fri Apr 28 01:31:09 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Subway Camper on Thu Apr 27 20:59:58 2006. are operated by COMPUTERS and can move very fast.After reading this whole subthread, I still don't see the connection between computers operating and speed. You'll probably still find various areas speed restricted. The fact is timers were added in places due to customer complaint, be it the train's speed around a curve or downhill leading to them being tossed around, or in some instances (Grand Ave on the L and Propect Park on the F come to mind), timers were added due to the complaints of vibration in the buildings above. Chances are you will not see the trains move any faster in those areas than a human controlled train. In other locations, speed is limited by the track configuration. If the train goes uphill, or around a curve the T/O can have the controller in parallel and the train will max out at a certain speed. That has to do with physics. A computer, no matter how much you may wish it so, cannot violate the laws of physics. Therefore, a computer will not operate faster than a human in this case. So, will trains be faster? In some areas, yes. However, I would not expect you to see a significantly quicker ride if the train were computer controlled. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by Goumba Tony on Fri Apr 28 01:33:04 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by Goumba Tony on Fri Apr 28 01:31:09 2006. And before anyone gets the wrong idea, this isn't meant to be a definitive list, but in addition to other reasons stated. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Goumba Tony on Fri Apr 28 01:35:30 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Christopher Rivera on Thu Apr 27 16:31:20 2006. No, the speedometers may not be the best, but there are signals to tell you if you're going to be tripped or not. I always operated by those. And its supposed to be +-5mph. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Apr 28 01:52:19 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Apr 27 20:45:40 2006. Depends. If it is disclosed, there are certain conditions. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Apr 28 08:22:36 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by BRONX THRU EXPRESS on Thu Apr 27 18:09:47 2006. Yeah, bring back the R-10s and put them on the A. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Fri Apr 28 08:40:43 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by R36 #9346 on Thu Apr 27 17:49:52 2006. Yeah, because they're the long stretches. Just don't get a PA-1 or any PA car with flat spots on the wheels. They can get migh-ty bumpy!And I've complained about that when I was on the PATH Patron Advisory Committee back in February. They've assured me that the numbers of flat spots should drop with the introduction of the PA-5s in 2008-2009. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Apr 28 10:39:45 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by italianstallion on Fri Apr 28 00:35:32 2006. Well, if you are using depends, then you will only need to stop for gasoline.ROARING! |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Apr 28 11:45:14 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by jrf2 on Thu Apr 27 16:27:01 2006. 3 - The timer (signal #409) between 7 Ave & Prospect Park on the B/Q.wayne |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Fri Apr 28 11:54:28 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Apr 28 11:45:14 2006. That used to be a great stretch, especially in the days when the Standards and D units just had markers but not real headlights on the front, making the view out the railfan window really dark. The train flew under Flatbush Avenue, and only when it made a very slight left turn the dimly lit (incandescent bulbs) 7th Avenue station could be seen in the distance, barely a speck -- but it grew quickly. It was a great run -- I couldn't tell you what speeds those trains hit, probably not as fast as it felt, but with the windows open in the front it was REALLY cool. |
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Re: CBTC to the System |
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Posted by monorail on Fri Apr 28 13:57:34 2006, in response to Re: CBTC to the System, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Apr 27 23:41:37 2006. thought 'the animals' disbanded |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Fri Apr 28 14:35:44 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Apr 27 17:53:31 2006. The ridership on the two main lines doesn't necessarily reflect ridership, because there is plenty of seating room off-peak.Ridership not reflecting ridership is a paradox. Ridership on the two main lines not reflecting ridership makes sense, since there are two other lines. But your reason makes no sense. Try re-explaining. Yonge/Sheppard/Spadina What have you been smoking? there isn't much speed until one gets north of St. Clair West. There happens to be a "north of Bloor" on every single line, not to mention on the eastern half of the Yonge-UNIVERSITY-Spadina line. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by tydev417 on Fri Apr 28 15:16:14 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Mike W. on Thu Apr 27 22:48:14 2006. Yeah, I noticed in that top video I posted, the trains don't jerk violently when they take off very unlike what we're used too. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Apr 28 16:06:05 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 27 16:06:05 2006. Hehe, preceding responces read "false," "true," "it depends."I am with italianstallion's "it depends." If traffic isn't too bad, driving is ALWAYS faster. If it is bad, it's about on par with the subway. It takes approximately an hour to get to the Upper West Side from where I live (Washington Heights) using the subway. If traffic is excellent, ~15 minutes by car. If traffic is terrible, ~45 minutes by car. Of course, there exist other routes than my most common non-school-related commute (school commute = 10 minutes by car from Washington Heights to Riverdale, 45 minutes by subway), so your mileage may vary. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 28 16:16:45 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Apr 27 18:23:10 2006. Guess you haven't driven around NYC lately. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Apr 28 16:26:24 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 28 16:16:45 2006. As I've stated in a response following in the thread, it really depends on your commute.For my most common commutes, driving is superior. Ten minutes vs. 45 minutes from Washington Heights to Riverdale. Fifteen minutes vs. one hour from Washington Heights to the Upper West Side. Even if traffic is bad on the West Side Highway, commute by car to the Upper West Side is ~45 minutes. However, I'm sure many longer commutes exist. But a virtually constant motion of 65 mph is certainly superior to a frequently interrupted motion which rarely approaches 40 mph. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Apr 28 16:55:38 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Brighton Private on Fri Apr 28 11:54:28 2006. If I knew the musical pitch of the bull and pinion gears, I could guess the speed. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Apr 28 17:05:21 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 28 16:16:45 2006. 15 minutes' time driving from Downtown Brooklyn to Bay Ridge, versus 30+ minutes' time on the R train. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Apr 28 17:17:31 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Apr 28 17:05:21 2006. Assuming the BQE isn't jacked up...and it often is, especially during the rush. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Apr 28 17:17:55 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Apr 28 17:17:31 2006. 3rd Avenue is often a viable alternative. |
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Re: Restore Full speed to the System |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Apr 28 17:20:29 2006, in response to Re: Restore Full speed to the System, posted by jrf2 on Thu Apr 27 16:27:01 2006. Another one I can think of is the second one on the 1 soutbound of 147 (where the track is a straightaway from Dyckman right through to 137).Another one is signal 674 on track A3 on the Fulton. |
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